Will Burnham make Kirk looks so ordinary in accomplishment?

[wayoung]

You seem to be deliberately replacing on screen references with head canon. Instead of accepting actual on screen dialogue, you are coming up with theories to explain them away in support of one throwaway reference in the third episode of TNG. One throw a way line from writers who didn't know own what they were doing with the franchise said by characters who may already be infected with a virus that makes them mentally incapacitated.

I literally went back and watched the scene you keep referencing in The Naked Now - it doesn't even say what you claim it says either.

Riker remembers a case from history (which means that the TOS missions are studied in the 24th century, just like on Voyager where the report on Kirk was part of the elementary school education program) similar to what they are going through but can't quite recall who or what was involved, other than that a woman showered in her clothes. Data checks the computer files. Data asks him to narrow it down so he tells Data to focus on missions by prior Enterprises. Data pulls up the file, Picard exits the turbolift, walks over, reads the file.

"Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding." then looks over the mission file.

No "blatant Kirk who?" moment as you alleged. No mention of Kirk being obscure. Picard simply reading the mission file. That's it. And, again, why was he reading the mission file? Because Riker had previously studied the TOS missions.

If it's the lack of exclamation you are somehow trying to claim is evidence of lack of fame, read this name:

Caesar.

Did you excitedly exclaim your recognition to all around you? Or did you just calmly read the name? Like Picard read Kirk's?

 

[Timo]

You seem to be deliberately replacing on screen references with head canon.

No. I'm accurately quoting absence of evidence. In all of TNG, Kirk is absent save for that one episode where he makes no impact. In all of DS9, Kirk is absent save for that one episode where he actually appears. This is not fame. At the very best, it's curious coincidence (why does Kirk make the appearance, rather than Tracey or Stone or Dunsel, people of equal lack of fame?).

You seem to be confusing fame in the minds of writers and audience with fame in the minds of characters. The former directly leads to all these "curious coincidences" but this does not lead to the latter.

I literally went back and watched the scene you keep referencing in The Naked Now - it doesn't even say what you claim it says either.

Too bad that you went there literally - no wonder you missed it.

Riker remembers a case from history (which means that the TOS missions are studied in the 24th century, just like on Voyager where the report on Kirk was part of the elementary school education program)

No, it wasn't. Icheb was considered a Cadet and specifically studying like a soldier would - that is, concentrating on issues the average Joe would find utterly obscure.

We don't even know who chose Kirk as the subject of the report. That this would be "one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history" isn't supposed to convince the audience of anything but Icheb's high annoyance coefficient. (Plus, the "great" chapter comes to an end while 34 chapters remain of the story. Not all that flattering in absolute terms.)

If it's the lack of exclamation you are somehow trying to claim is evidence of lack of fame, read this name:

You got your big words confused. It's not exclamation, it's exposition. We get none here. So, "Kirk who?". It's not "The Kirk", it's not an incident even Riker himself would be familiar with. It's just a ship and a name. And we know Riker is an Asslicker Supreme at that point, so of course he studied the history of Enterprises when assigned to one of 'em - that is, very recently, as there wasn't much lead time. Had Picard commanded the Yamato, they might all have died there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[In Thy Image]

I think it is pretty clear Kirk is remembered as a legendary starship captain and explorer in the 24th century. Of course, he is a historical figure so they don't talk about him every day. Most people today know who Columbus is, but they don't namedrop him constantly.

 

[Timo]

It's not that Kirk gets little or no mention. It's that he gets little or no recognition when mentioned. Except from people who knew him back in the 23rd century, that is.

Lack of namedrops would just be statistics. And statistics are perverted in drama. Lack of recognition is damning.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[In Thy Image]

It's not that Kirk gets little or no mention. It's that he gets little or no recognition when mentioned. Except from people who knew him back in the 23rd century, that is.

Lack of namedrops would just be statistics. And statistics are perverted in drama. Lack of recognition is damning.

Timo Saloniemi

Well I don't think he wasn't recognized either. Sisko knew of him and even violated the temporal prime directive to meet him. When Picard said "James T. Kirk" in Generations he was in awe. Like "wow, this is the legendary Kirk!" There was a maneuver named after him, which Riker used in Nemesis. Janeway knew of him and even claimed they would all be booted from Starfleet if they lived in her time (implying she knew about their adventures). Icheb wrote a paper on him, etc.

 

[Tenacity]

what if Burnham does something bigger than what Kirk accomplished in TOS

Her captain will take all the credit, ah the life of a first officer.

 

[urbandefault]

This problem often happen in a series that happen in the same universe as the previous another TV series. I just realized this when I watched the latest Gundam Franchisee Show, MS Gundam Thunderbolt that happen at the same timeline and universe as the first Gundam series ever.

Now, what make me realized was that in the previous Gundam UC (Universal Century) universe, the first Gundam Pilot (Amuro Ray) was a legend. His enemy call him "The White Demon", and his Gundam (his mecha) become so famous so it frightened many enemies. Even in previous following series that happen after the timeline fast forward considered Amuro as a legend. But because Bandai produced many shows that happen at the same timeline (the same One Year War) and create many new awesome characters and Gundam, Amuro Ray become so ordinary if we compare him to another Gundam Pilot. For example, Io Flemming from the new Thunderbolt series. So the problem is, if there are another Ace Pilots who exceed Amuro (the first MC), then how Amuro become a legend?

Now, we go into TNG era Star Trek. We know that Picard was the hero of the first TNG era. But when Sisko appeared, Picard was looks so ordinary compared to the later. Look at Sisko. His accomplishment can be considered as legendary in the universe. He was a war hero. Compared to him, Picard was nothing. So basically Sisko was over shadow Picard as the main character in the TNG era Star Trek.

Now, let back to the 23rd Century. We all know that James T Kirk was a legend in the Star Trek universe. We can see this from what Sisko did in DS9 series (where he was so amazed when he shake hand with Kirk). So now we have Burnham. She is in the middle of a heated conflict between Federation and Klingon. Because both characters (Kirk and Burnham) happened at the same universe and timeline, what if Burnham does something bigger than what Kirk accomplished in TOS? Wouldn't it make Michael Burnham the legend instead of Kirk?

Look at her, there was no mention about Michael Burnham in TOS, TNG, DS9, and even Voyager. (I know she's a new character that created recently). So what will happen if she accomplished something extra ordinary that make Kirk look like just another starship captain?

 

[Timo]

Well I don't think he wasn't recognized either. Sisko knew of him and even violated the temporal prime directive to meet him.

We have no evidence Sisko knew of him before their encounter. He gets a history lesson there and then, and Dax is all hot and bothered about it. So it's only natural that Sisko would be, at the very end of their adventure.

When Picard said "James T. Kirk" in Generations he was in awe. Like "wow, this is the legendary Kirk!"

How so? Picard had studied Soran and the Nexus, so Kirk would have popped up there as well - but finding him chopping wood is certainly grounds for gasping a little. No "legendary", nothing about Kirk's achievements. Not even a polite reminder that he's dead.

Of course, Picard would have been wary here, having just spent Christmas in Neverland.

There was a maneuver named after him, which Riker used in Nemesis.

There's also the Picard Maneuver. Again, not lack of mention, lack of recognition.

Janeway knew of him and even claimed they would all be booted from Starfleet if they lived in her time (implying she knew about their adventures).

Or about their times, at any rate. I don't need to know the first thing about Decatur to be aware of the differences between them and now in the USN.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Her captain will take all the credit, ah the life of a first officer.

...It's pretty amusing how Kirk does exactly nothing in the 2009 movie except fail, fail, fail and then save Captain Pike, while Spock stops Armageddon. Who gets promoted?

But we already examined the life of a celebrity in Star Trek with Kirk - he certainly was well-known in his own time. Fleeting fame is an interesting theme, but Burnham need not go that route in order to be heroic, interesting and remarkable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[wayoung]

No. I'm accurately quoting absence of evidence.

Which is a logical fallacy.

In all of TNG, Kirk is absent save for that one episode where he makes no impact. In all of DS9, Kirk is absent save for that one episode where he actually appears.

So your argument is that if you ignore the episodes where he appears/is mentioned, then he never appears/is mentioned, so obviously he faded into obscurity.

Too bad that you went there literally - no wonder you missed it.

Right. If I just imagined the content of the episode, like you, instead of watching the scene like I did, that would have made my position stronger. Instead I went back and watched the episode and wrote what was in it. Hard to argue against someone es fantasies with facts. My argument is now destroyed. Why oh why did I bother to rely on in screen dialogue instead of Timo's head canon?

No, it wasn't. Icheb was considered a Cadet and specifically studying like a soldier would - that is, concentrating on issues the average Joe would find utterly obscure.

We don't even know who chose Kirk as the subject of the report. That this would be "one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history" isn't supposed to convince the audience of anything but Icheb's high annoyance coefficient. (Plus, the "great" chapter comes to an end while 34 chapters remain of the story. Not all that flattering in absolute terms.)

There. Ya got me. He was studying as a cadet, not a regular student. I was posting from memory, not Google, and got his educational program wrong. Doesn't change anything. The on screen facts are are still the on screen facts, argue them away with your own head canon all you want. Unless it states your gobbly gook on the screen, it ain't worth jack.

You got your big words confused. It's not exclamation, it's exposition

Straw man and a hint of ad hominem Delightful.

We get none here. So, "Kirk who?". It's not "The Kirk"

We get no exposition stating that he is obscure either - just as legit to say he's so famous they don't need to talk about him. "Kirk. Nothing else needs to be said" not "Kirk who?".

Reading a name in a file and not expanding upon it is no evidence either way.

it's not an incident even Riker himself would be familiar with. It's just a ship and a name. And we know Riker is an Asslicker Supreme at that point, so of course he studied the history of Enterprises when assigned to one of 'em - that is, very recently, as there wasn't much lead time. Had Picard commanded the Yamato, they might all have died there.

Sweet, more long winded head canon explanations to try and write off on screen content.

Still waiting for some actual on a screen references to back up your statement that Kirk's obscure. Were at around ten that show he's not right now. No more head canon conspiracy theories about how this and this and this is the only explanation of how Sisko, Janeway, Nero all knew about Kirk and just pretended he was all famous and great. Actual, on screen content would be nice.

 

[In Thy Image]

We have no evidence Sisko knew of him before their encounter.

Whe have no evidence he didn't know of him either. And he seemed pretty starstruck to me. Like he was meeting a personal hero. And that guy from Temporal investigations said he would have done the same thing! Violate the temporal prime directive just to talk to some guy. Why would he do that if Kirk was unknown.

How so? Picard had studied Soran and the Nexus, so Kirk would have popped up there as well

You are assuming that's what happened. But his starstruck James T. Kirk was actually seen. Sure, perhaps he was just in awe of seeing a guy (he found out about half an hour ago) chopping wood, but that's not the impression I got.

And of course everybody learnd about famous figures by doing research and reading books. The fact is Kirk was important enough to be in those books.

Anyway, we are getting off topic and I don't think I'll change your mind . Back on-topic: I don't think Burnham's actions will diminish Kirk's achievements in any way. Her being Spock's unknown adopted sister is a bigger problem.

 

[wayoung]

Anyway, we are getting off topic and I don't think I'll change your mind . .

Its 'cause Timo's entire theory is predicated on a logical fallacy, despite our pointing it out over and over again. Makes the whole discussion the equivalent of

 

[Tuskin38]

This could make a good discussion in General Trek Discussion

 

[KirkusOveractus]

So, Sisko didn't really know about Kirk? When the Temporal Investigations agents mention Kirk, Sisko says, with a huge smile and a lot of pride, "The one and only!" In scenes in that episode, Sisko knew of Kirk, even mentioning he'd want to talk to Kirk about fighting the Gorn. That's more than knowing a little history of the man. Sisko knows about Kirk.

In the VOY episode "Flashback", Janeway says what she wouldn't give to ride along with Kirk, and says it with awe.

In a more blanket statement, there is a bigger reason why Kirk is a legend: 10 more ships, maybe more beyond that, were named Enterprise. Sure as hell wasn't because of Pike.

 

[Vger23]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Each show (except ENT of course) took it's chance to demonstrate that Kirk was legendary, particularly in the eyes of the characters.

To say otherwise is to ignore the obvious and is simply another feeble attempt at an "us vs. them" argument because "24th Sentry Trek iZ teh ooossummmm!!!1!1!!!"

 

[Mudd]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

[Eric Cheung]

I'm pretty sure Picard and Riker at least knew of the captains of the previous Enterprises. Picard's a studious sort who would have likely read up on the history of past Starfleet captains of the Enterprise.

None of the accomplishments of previous captains necessarily exceed or fail to reach the heights of other captains. They're often just different achievements. But in Kirk's case, his big accomplishments, I believe, were that he was the youngest captain in Starfleet at the time, and that he was the first to complete a five-year mission of exploration. These were significant enough to adopt his patch as the universal patch for Starfleet personnel.

Of course, whether or not any of that is true is certainly up to debate. The patch thing in particular is incredibly inconsistent. Given how frequently we've seen the delta before Kirk in works since ENT, it now appears that TOS's patch policy was a failed Starfleet experiment, rather than the precursor to a unique honor to Kirk's ship. But Into Darkness implies that at least that no one completed a five-year mission before the Narada incursion of 2233, even if the Prime Timeline might have had one between 2233 and 2265.

I guess the short answer is with the consensus, "No."

 

[wayoung]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

From the content of the posts, Idon't think he/she knows the difference.

 

[Vger23]

I'm pretty sure Picard and Riker at least knew of the captains of the previous Enterprises. Picard's a studious sort who would have likely read up on the history of past Starfleet captains of the Enterprise.

None of the accomplishments of previous captains necessarily exceed or fail to reach the heights of other captains. They're often just different achievements. But in Kirk's case, his big accomplishments, I believe, were that he was the youngest captain in Starfleet at the time, and that he was the first to complete a five-year mission of exploration. These were significant enough to adopt his patch as the universal patch for Starfleet personnel.


I guess the short answer is with the consensus, "No."

He was also instrumental in the most significant historical events that shaped the relations with both the Klingons

• Organian Peace Treaty
• Genesis Incident
• Khitomer Accords

...and the Romulans

• First contact with Romulans since the original war...and first Federation member to see and communicate with a Romulan
• Stole the Romulan Cloaking Device

He saved Earth from certain and immediate annihilation

• V'Ger Incident
• Cetacean Incident

He was the first to breach both the Galactic Barrier at the edge of the galaxy and the Great Barrier at the center of the galaxy.

They discovered time travel under his command

• The Naked Time Controlled Implosion
• Slingshot Effect

They discovered proof of the multiverse under his command

• Mirror Universe exchange
• What of Lazarus?

The whole question is kind of like saying "Is Check Yeager weak compared to modern pilots?" The idea of the FIRST...of the pioneer who pushed the boundaries and opened all the doors for what came later cannot be overestimated.

Kirk was probably one of several legendary Starfleet leaders (Garth, Picard, Sisko are also in the mix, obviously)...but he really set the tone for everything that came after, regardless of the perceived level of accomplishments.

So...until people start saying that Alan Shepard, John Glenn and Neil Armstrong are dated and "out-achieved" relics because they never flew a shuttle mission or spent 100 days on the ISS...I'm ok believing Kirk is the best.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Of course, wouldn't the original question be rendered moot? Burnham's service, no matter how distinguished, predates Kirk. So whatever she does may end up being overshadowed by Kirk anyway.