Power systems in TOS

[JRTStarlight]

Memory Alpha is a good starting point for research but it's far from the final word of authority on any matter, not least because the articles can be edited by anyone! So no, I have not used MA as a source to draw my conclusions from. My conclusions are from TOS itself.

I suppose that's true, but it is much better than most other sources I know, except, of course, the shows themselves. But those are harder to access and search in concise fashion. Though any "fact" drawn from MA is so likely to be true, I'd have to have specific contrary dialogue pointed out to me to reject it.

The idea of a single, centralized reactor is certainly prevalent throughout TNG and could easily be argued to have been trialled in the "totally new" engine redesign in TMP. However, in TOS what little engineering dialogue there is really only consistent with the nacelles functioning as originally envisioned by Matt Jefferies - that they are the main source of energy used by the ship. I will try and draw together some quotes for you later, but here is an earlier discussion on the matter:

I wouldn't agree all dialogue is consistent with that or must be taken in only that way, and that dialogue in general is likely inconsistent since they didn't know - not because it wasn't fixed in the fictional universe, or was being changed weekly with new and interesting experimental designs.

Could you point me to where that setup is explicitly stated in any Trek episode? As far as I know it is only elaborated upon in secondary source materials, such as the technical manuals.

Probably not. I recall instances of them discussing the true source of power or main source of power often enough (a M/AM reaction). I recall a necessary component of that was dilithium (or crystalized lithium) as part of a power circuit (and not really the source of power, even if Spock detects power readings from them, that's just the nature of one of those hypersonic series elements and that power could be vanishingly small). I recall Scotty looking at and crawling in stuff inside the main body of the ship, and not really near the nacelles - so the M/AM stuff is taking place down inside the ship (and if it takes place in the nacelles too, that's another matter, or another antimatter). Any mention of antimatter pods is likely just the place they keep it (the magnetic bottle or containment chambers) which send it to the reaction chamber. Since the crystals have to be heated/charged way up to become semipermeable to lighter anti-matter, like anti deuterium, and one can control the reaction rate through them, I do not think one annihilates M/AM first and then directs the product through the crystals, but one uses the crystals to safely regulate the flow of anti matter into the reaction chamber. But you won't find that detail in TOS dialogue. They didn't really know, or need to know, or probably want to know (certainly not enough to dedicate time to hammering it down) so it's left to techno geeks and the like to speculate upon it. In the Trek universe, however, if you think this set up is well established in TNG, then the laws of that universe haven't changed, and this lends weight to the idea something similar was the case in TOS, too, regardless of what inconsistent dialogue might imply, or what some people behind the scenes who created it then might have originally envisioned.

we have strong indications that the antimatter at least was stored directly in the nacelles:

Via the mention of an antimatter pod, which might just be the official name for a magnetic bottle of sorts that is there pulling double duty and also being used as a means to store drive plasma (aka - the fuel obtained from a M/AM reaction). The fact they call it fuel and not antimatter all the time might suggest this. And the conversion mentioned might be conversion from drive plasma to electricity via an EPS tap, which I gather runs most things - yeah, electricity. Or that phasers can be used as an alternative fuel source for a shuttle. The whole science is sketchy, of course, and dialogue is often inconsistent, and they often do things or say things that are just wrong – so much so, in fact, they claim when they say anti-matter, what they really mean is sometimes more than just what our science calls anti-matter (this is covering their arse for saying strange things in some episodes and just calling it anti-matter).

But if one only accepts proof from dialogue, I don't think you can lock it down one way or the other in TOS since it seems inconsistent or can be taken more than one way. So I revert to the laws of the fictional Trek universe argument, and if it works that way in TNG, then it probably works that way, or close enough to that way, in TOS, since the laws of the universe have not changed in the last 100 years.

But I'm still just speculating.

 

[Tenacity]

The warp core is where this reaction takes place

Certainly the term "warp core" was never mentioned in TOS, and I recall dialog that the TOS Enterprise had multiple reactors with Kirk referring to reactors two, four and six.

The warp core is not in the nacelles, but in the main body of the ship

Unclear. Some fans think the reactor is in the engineering hull so as it could be "fiddled with" on a regular basis.

Personally I think the reactors (multiple) are in the nacelles, which is where the majority of their plasma output is used. A small amount plasma is brought down to the rest of the ship to directly power heavy demand equipment and to be converted into electricity.

During TOS, I think it's unclear exactly what the dilithium crystals did, other than they were involve in some way with the power systems and the warp drive.

I consider it possible that lithium and dilithium are two entirely different kinds of crystals, that perform different functions.

Though any "fact" drawn from MA is so likely to be true ...

When it come to direct references yes, however memory alpha and the articles found there are less likely to be "true" when it comes to matters of interpretation and the personal opinions of the individuals who wrote various articles.

Some articles on MA read like fan fiction, and it's unclear where some of their "facts" are coming from.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Certainly the term "warp core" was never mentioned in TOS, and I recall dialog that the TOS Enterprise had multiple reactors with Kirk referring to reactors two, four and six.

The fusion reactors, for example, are also there. I don't know how many. But they do speak of warp engines in the plural often enough, so each nacelle is likely an engine. They also speak of impulse engines in the plural, so there's likely more than one fusion reactor for those. But we see in TOS the dilithium crystal assembly, and there only seems to be one of those. But maybe there are more - they just weren't important for the main drive at the time, and you can't borrow dilithium from those lesser systems for your more important ones either, apparently. I'm not sure if converting a plasma stream from the M/MA reaction to electricity would be a "reactor's" job for controlling a conversion of some sort.

Unclear. Some fans think the reactor is in the engineering hull so as it could be "fiddled with" on a regular basis.

I was unclear since by main body I meant the engineering section and not the saucer section. I think the engineering section is probably larger overall than the whole of the saucer section, but I'm not sure.

Personally I think the reactors (multiple) are in the nacelles, which is where the majority of their plasma output is used. A small amount plasma is brought down to the rest of the ship to directly power heavy demand equipment and to be converted into electricity.

So are those M/AM reactors, or plasma/electricity reactors? I mean, do you think there are multiple dilithium chambers and there is at least one, possible more than one, in each nacelle? And what then is the one we see Scotty playing with? That's not in the nacelle. And they also get drive plasma for other power systems from the impulse fusion reactors, too. And they absolutely refuse to show us where they keep their batteries.

During TOS, I think it's unclear exactly what the dilithium crystals did, other than they were involve in some way with the power systems and the warp drive.

I'm pretty sure I recall "power circuit" as in dilithium crystal circuit burn out, and regulating the energy flow.

I consider it possible that lithium and dilithium are two entirely different kinds of crystals, that perform different functions.

It's just they changed their minds, but now MA says they used to use crystalize lithium, then later used dilithium (rarer, but better, I guess). I suspect Earth sure doesn't have any dilithium, so we had to use something other than that to get into space with warp drive.

Some articles on MA read like fan fiction, and it's unclear where some of their "facts" are coming from.

True, but I think it's often clear when that's the case and they aren't quoting dialogue from various episodes. When they are quoting, it's a safe bet it's actual dialogue and canon.

One example (among many), in What Are Little Girls Made Of, it's mentioned that Kirk's brother, sister-in-law and three nephews saw Kirk off on this mission. MA uses this to say that Kirk's brother was present when Kirk took command of the Enterprise. Interpretation.

And you wish to distinguish being the mission and actually taking command? Me? I'm more interested in what happened to the other two nephews since only Peter seemed to be around later. Did they die?

Where are your two brothers, Peter?

They're dead, Jim.

But another source besides Memory Alpha I like is it's pretty easy to call up actual transcripts (and they're searchable). Not that's it's easy to search all 79 of them for something in TOS, or more for other series.

 

[Tenacity]

And you wish to distinguish being the mission and actually taking command?

Do I wish to? No.

Me? I'm more interested in what happened to the other two nephews since only Peter seemed to be around later. Did they die?

Never spelled out, George Kirk has three sons per WALGMO. There could be any number of reasons why the other two sons (and any daughters?) weren't present in Operation Annihilate, and why Kirk didn't seem worried about them.

One possibility, George is older than Jim, the other two sons are grown men who live away from Deneva, Jim Kirk knows this.

 

[scotpens]

. . . George Kirk has three sons per WALGMO. There could be any number of reasons why the other two sons (and any daughters?) weren't present in Operation Annihilate, and why Kirk didn't seem worried about them.

One possibility, George is older than Jim, the other two sons are grown men who live away from Deneva, Jim Kirk knows this.

The dead body of George Samuel "Sam" Kirk didn't look that much older than Jim Kirk, even with the gray hair and mustache. I figured the other two sons were teenagers who were away at private boarding school or space camp or something.

 

[JRTStarlight]

MCCOY: "Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family."

I knew it was something like that. That image above with Peter was cut from the episode, but it was where Kirk was deciding what to do with Peter. Since not taking him would look bad, they made up some reason for him to go live elsewhere or had Peter tell Jim he wanted to live elsewhere. Maybe it didn't sound quite right, so they cut it. This is all from memory, and even then, who knows if any of it is true? Anyway, Peter didn't stay with Kirk, though Kirk may have been his guardian or something and sent him off the school or something.

 

[Mytran]

I wouldn't agree all {TOS} dialogue is consistent with that or must be taken in only that way, and that dialogue in general is likely inconsistent since they didn't know - not because it wasn't fixed in the fictional universe, or was being changed weekly with new and interesting experimental designs.
…
They didn't really know, or need to know, or probably want to know (certainly not enough to dedicate time to hammering it down) so it's left to techno geeks and the like to speculate upon it. In the Trek universe, however, if you think this set up is well established in TNG, then the laws of that universe haven't changed, and this lends weight to the idea something similar was the case in TOS, too, regardless of what inconsistent dialogue might imply, or what some people behind the scenes who created it then might have originally envisioned.

That’s a common belief and not an unnatural one, given that the Trek universe was being designed from scratch at this point. However, as far as the basic concepts of engineering went it was fairly well all laid out, as we can see in the original series bible:

The Enterprise engines (the two outboard nacelles) use matter and anti-matter for propulsion, the annihilation of dual matter creating the fantastic power required to warp space and exceed the speed of light.

These nacelles are also labelled as “power pods” on many of Matt Jefferies preproduction sketches:
http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp-content/uploads/2005/07/Enterprise-concept-art1.jpg

When you consider that Jefferies (not to mention Roddenberry) both came from an aviation background, it is not hard to see why they designed the ship this way. Aeroplane engines (known as nacelles) generate the main thrust for the vehicle and are tapped into by the rest of the onboard systems for power. The TNG setup is more of a naval model, where there is a central engine which drives a propellor for propulsion, plus other ship systems as well.

However, the aviation model layout of the ship carries over very well into the episodes also:

THE APPLE, after Kirk learns that Vaal is holding the Enterprise captive:
KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!
This is a clear indication (as if we needed one) that the nacelles are an essential component of the warp drive system

BY ANY OTHER NAME, talking about sabotaging the ship:
SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-antimatter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.
…
BREAD AND CIRCUSES, talking about the remains of the destroyed SS Beagle
SPOCK: Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.
While Memory Alpha lists “antimatter nacelles” and “matter-antimatter nacelles” as alternative names for “nacelles” the website doesn’t take into account that this is what their function was originally intended to be, as per the TOS bible.

THE SAVAGE CURTAIN, as Kirk learns that the Excalbians are in control of the Enterprise:
SCOTT: I can't explain it, sir, but the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity.
KIRK: What caused that?
SCOTT; There's no knowing and there's no stopping it either. The shielding is breaking down. I estimate four hours before it goes completely. Four hours before the ship blows up.
...
KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.
If the matter and antimatter were not stored in the nacelles, there would be little benefit in disengaging let along jettisoning them, since the degrading antimatter supplies would still be held aboard ship.

THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE, a report on the Constellation’s damage:
WASHBURN: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.
…
SPOCK: I would say none, Captain. The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attract it. I doubt we could manoeuvre close enough without drawing a direct attack upon ourselves.
Here we see the interchangeable terms of “nacelles” and “pods”. Also that power is generated FROM the nacelles, not just fed into them.

METAMORPHOSIS, just after the energy cloud has enveloped the shuttlecraft:
SPOCK: Helm does not answer, Captain.
KIRK: Neither do the pods. Communications are dead. Building overload. Cut all power relays.
The use of “pods” is clearly a reference to a flight function rather than a fuel tank.

Antimatter pods are also mentioned in Errand Of Mercy, The Apple, I Mudd, Elaan Of Troyius. While it is possible that the term “pod” is applicable to fuel tanks as well as nacelles, that would seem to be needlessly complicated and not consistent with what is described elsewhere.

THAT WHICH SURVIVES, as Scotty is crawling around inside the matter-antimatter integrator, which also contains the magnetic field which bottles up the antimatter:
SPOCK: Lieutenant Uhura, you are monitoring the magnetic force?
UHURA: Oh yes, sir.
SPOCK: Please do not take your eyes off of it. Lieutenant Rahda, arm the pod jettison system.
RAHDA: Aye, sir. I'll jettison the pod at the first sign of trouble.
SPOCK: Not until my order.
This quote is often taken in isolation from the rest of TOS as evidence that there is a single, central reactor. However, there is nothing in TWS which specifies that the reactor Scotty crawls into is the only one on board ship and all previous references to an antimatter pod have been in the plural. Indeed, if there are twin reactors (one in each nacelle) then an increase of power in one (caused by the sabotage) would naturally necessitate an increase in the other. IOW, the Enterprise is literally tearing itself apart in an attempt to balance the power output of the malfunctioning nacelle - purely automated, of course. That is why (if Scotty can’t stop the flow of fuel in the malfunctioning nacelle/power pod) the only other option Spock has is to jettison it, engineer and all.

…I recall instances of them discussing the true source of power or main source of power often enough (a M/AM reaction). I recall a necessary component of that was dilithium (or crystalized lithium) as part of a power circuit (and not really the source of power, even if Spock detects power readings from them, that's just the nature of one of those hypersonic series elements and that power could be vanishingly small). I recall Scotty looking at and crawling in stuff inside the main body of the ship, and not really near the nacelles - so the M/AM stuff is taking place down inside the ship (and if it takes place in the nacelles too, that's another matter, or another antimatter).

Well I certainly won't condemn you for not having an encyclopaedic knowledge of every episode of Star Trek at your fingertips!

I'm pretty sure I recall "power circuit" as in dilithium crystal circuit burn out, and regulating the energy flow.

That’s an early one! It’s from Mudd’s Women and the lithium crystal circuit burnout is caused by them straining the shield generators to extend them over Mudd’s fleeing vessel.

Also: Spock detected dilithium emissions during the events of Elaan of Troyius at extreme close range during the episode, when Elaan was standing in the same room.

Also also: Scotty crawled into the matter/antimatter “integrator” during the events of That Which Survives. Dialogue is suggestive of a single reactor, but as I outlined above, I don’t think that needs to be the case (and it contradicts all the other references in TOS to an aviation style engineering model anyway). So yes; I am purporting that the crawlway Scotty is in during this episode is inside one of the nacelle reactors.

… the crystals have to be heated/charged way up to become semipermeable to lighter anti-matter, like anti deuterium, and one can control the reaction rate through them, I do not think one annihilates M/AM first and then directs the product through the crystals, but one uses the crystals to safely regulate the flow of anti matter into the reaction chamber. But you won't find that detail in TOS dialogue.

I think it’s a safe bet that you won’t find that level of detail in any Star Trek series, TOS, TNG or otherwise. Other than the need for dilithium crystals to be involved in the M/AM reaction in TNG engine rooms there’s little revealed beyond that in canon as to how they need to be treated, heated, suspended in a high intensity magnetic field or anything!
Dilithium in TOS is clearly necessary (or at least desirable) for many shipboard operations, but nothing explicit in relation for mediating the M/AM reaction.

But if one only accepts proof from dialogue, I don't think you can lock it down one way or the other in TOS since it seems inconsistent or can be taken more than one way. So I revert to the laws of the fictional Trek universe argument, and if it works that way in TNG, then it probably works that way, or close enough to that way, in TOS, since the laws of the universe have not changed in the last 100 years.

The fact that a lot of the information comes from dialogue with Spock (a stickler for accuracy) adds a lot of weight to it IMO. It’s also extremely consistent within the TOS timeframe. As for later incarnations such at TNG, I have no trouble believing that technology evolved and improved during that time. In fact, it might be more troublesome to believe that nothing changed during the four centuries of FTL spaceflight that we witness in Trek!

…I think it's often clear {of memory Alpha} when that's the case and they aren't quoting dialogue from various episodes. When they are quoting, it's a safe bet it's actual dialogue and canon
…
But another source besides Memory Alpha I like is it's pretty easy to call up actual transcripts (and they're searchable). Not that's it's easy to search all 79 of them for something in TOS, or more for other series.

If you want to search the transcripts of TOS, TNG or indeed any other series, then this website is invaluable:
http://scriptsearch.dxdy.name/

But I'm still just speculating.

And you are certainly in the right place for that

 

[JRTStarlight]

The Enterprise engines (the two outboard nacelles) use matter and anti-matter for propulsion, the annihilation of dual matter creating the fantastic power required to warp space and exceed the speed of light.

A car engine uses gasoline, but that doesn't mean the gas tank is kept with the engine. And though one sends gasoline to it, one can send a M/AM reaction product to the engines, too, and still claim they use those things to make us go.

BY ANY OTHER NAME, talking about sabotaging the ship:

SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-antimatter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.

And you think that proves there must be antimatter there? Positive and negative energy equates to matter and antimatter? There is a conversion of M to E (E=mc^2), but this doesn't prove there is antimatter in the nacelle, but more likely some product that will react badly with positive energy, whatever that is, or opening it will provide a conduit down to the core where they do keep the AM, I am not convinced by this one.

BREAD AND CIRCUSES, talking about the remains of the destroyed SS Beagle

SPOCK: Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.

While Memory Alpha lists “antimatter nacelles” and “matter-antimatter nacelles” as alternative names for “nacelles” the website doesn’t take into account that this is what their function was originally intended to be, as per the TOS bible.

Suggestive, but not conclusive, IMO, or more suggestive and conclusive they improperly use names for things, or have alternative names that may not fully tell what something is or how it works. The nacelles use the stuff we get from the M/AM reaction, so calling them AM nacelles is a possibility just for that.

THE SAVAGE CURTAIN, as Kirk learns that the Excalbians are in control of the Enterprise:

SCOTT: I can't explain it, sir, but the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity.

KIRK: What caused that?

SCOTT; There's no knowing and there's no stopping it either. The shielding is breaking down. I estimate four hours before it goes completely. Four hours before the ship blows up.

KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.

If the matter and antimatter were not stored in the nacelles, there would be little benefit in disengaging let along jettisoning them, since the degrading antimatter supplies would still be held aboard ship.

That one is more promising. But maybe using the nacelles as magnetic bottles themselves, that's a good place to dump the AM and jettison it away rather than directly into space, for which they have no safe means to do that and would risk contact with AM. It would be similar to dumping the warp core now - you just empty the M/AM reactor (core) via the nacelles to safely contain it for a time and dump those and send them safely away from the ship.

THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE, a report on the Constellation’s damage:

WASHBURN: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.

SPOCK: I would say none, Captain. The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attract it. I doubt we could manoeuvre close enough without drawing a direct attack upon ourselves.

Here we see the interchangeable terms of “nacelles” and “pods”. Also that power is generated FROM the nacelles, not just fed into them.

Energy is generated, not power, but energy is often converted from one form to another (potential, kinetic, chemical, heat, sound, of a type never before encountered, captain). So it may be the EPS drive plasma he speaks about and not antimatter, which is more properly called mass and not energy, anyway.

METAMORPHOSIS, just after the energy cloud has enveloped the shuttlecraft:

SPOCK: Helm does not answer, Captain.

KIRK: Neither do the pods. Communications are dead. Building overload. Cut all power relays.

The use of “pods” is clearly a reference to a flight function rather than a fuel tank.

Antimatter pods are also mentioned in Errand Of Mercy, The Apple, I Mudd, Elaan Of Troyius. While it is possible that the term “pod” is applicable to fuel tanks as well as nacelles, that would seem to be needlessly complicated and not consistent with what is described elsewhere.

Consistency is a luxury we cannot afford. Pod, fuel tank, etc. just seems to me to be some form of magnetic bottle, which can hold super heated plasma antimatter, or super heated plasma matter, which seems to be fuel derived from the M/AM reaction regulated through the dilithium matrix. The fact you can also store AM directly into one of these things, too, isn't surprising, and may have been its original purpose, and got the name for that fact, even if that's no longer its most common use.

THAT WHICH SURVIVES, as Scotty is crawling around inside the matter-antimatter integrator, which also contains the magnetic field which bottles up the antimatter:

SPOCK: Lieutenant Uhura, you are monitoring the magnetic force?

UHURA: Oh yes, sir.

SPOCK: Please do not take your eyes off of it. Lieutenant Rahda, arm the pod jettison system.

RAHDA: Aye, sir. I'll jettison the pod at the first sign of trouble.

SPOCK: Not until my order.

This quote is often taken in isolation from the rest of TOS as evidence that there is a single, central reactor. However, there is nothing in TWS which specifies that the reactor Scotty crawls into is the only one on board ship and all previous references to an antimatter pod have been in the plural. Indeed, if there are twin reactors (one in each nacelle) then an increase of power in one (caused by the sabotage) would naturally necessitate an increase in the other. IOW, the Enterprise is literally tearing itself apart in an attempt to balance the power output of the malfunctioning nacelle - purely automated, of course. That is why (if Scotty can’t stop the flow of fuel in the malfunctioning nacelle/power pod) the only other option Spock has is to jettison it, engineer and all.

But where Scotty is crawling is nowhere near the nacelles. But if you think each nacelle needs its own dilithium matrix, and they have multiple matrix assemblies around the ship, A.) what is that one Scott plays with in engineering, and B.) why is it so important to warp drive and weapons, and C.) can't they borrow dilithium from a less critical system to fix a more important one at that moment if they have more than one?

Well I certainly won't condemn you for not having an encyclopaedic knowledge of every episode of Star Trek at your fingertips!

That is wise.

Also: Spock detected dilithium emissions during the events of Elaan of Troyius at extreme close range during the episode, when Elaan was standing in the same room.

The bridge, yeah. So? Do you say since they emit some power, they therefore must emit enough power to actually power a whole starship (and M/AM is only used to, scoff, regenerate those crystals)? Those boys detects all sorts of weird things at a distance, and hypersonic elements is certainly one of them. I'm not surprise they give off some energy readings. So do most fish during in the mud. Ask any hammerhead you happen to see, what's the best tuna?

Also also: Scotty crawled into the matter/antimatter “integrator” during the events of That Which Survives. Dialogue is suggestive of a single reactor, but as I outlined above, I don’t think that needs to be the case (and it contradicts all the other references in TOS to an aviation style engineering model anyway). So yes; I am purporting that the crawlway Scotty is in during this episode is inside one of the nacelle reactors.

Doesn't seem to be since it's on the other side of that wall in engineering, IIRC. But with artificial gravity, one could be in any orientation. It just seemed to me to be the main M/AM integration spot, in main engineerings, from which the plasma product would be directed to each nacelle.

I think it’s a safe bet that you won’t find that level of detail in any Star Trek series, TOS, TNG or otherwise. Other than the need for dilithium crystals to be involved in the M/AM reaction in TNG engine rooms there’s little revealed beyond that in canon as to how they need to be treated, heated, suspended in a high intensity magnetic field or anything!

Dilithium in TOS is clearly necessary (or at least desirable) for many shipboard operations, but nothing explicit in relation for mediating the M/AM reaction.

Hmmmmm. The cold intermix formula! They talk of heating stuff up. Well, you can't have warp without dilithium/lithium. And the M/AM reaction is mostly used for the power it takes to warp, and a relatively small amount for other ship systems. I think it's implied, but if it's not explicit enough for you, I probably don't have the right stuff to change your mind here, I don’t think.

If you want to search the transcripts of TOS, TNG or indeed any other series, then this website is invaluable:

I just Google the title and the word "transcript" and it's usually the first thing that comes up. I should put all 79 in one file so I can search all of TOS at one time. Ha. But not everything uttered in dialogue can or should be taken as absolute, IMO. We should take it, if we can. But if it's a huge problem, and likely the product of a mistake or poor foresight, we should at least possibly discard it or alter it. I mean, they never really say anything other than "THE transporter room" but do we derive from this there is only one, despite alterations in equipment, console position, apparent deck number, etc.? I think there's more than one. But prove it with TOS dialogue? I don't think so.

And you are certainly in the right place for that

As long as it's fun.

 

[Spock's Barber]

"Okay, kid. Don't get too confortable in that chair, because I'mmmmmmm Captainnnnn Kirkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!"

 

[Albertese]

The model I use to best reconcile all the evidence from TOS itself is a three reactor setup.

Reactor no. 1 is up in one nacelle, providing power directly to the warp field coils behind it, reactor no. 2 is the mirror image of no. 1 but in the other nacelle. There is also a third reactor down in the engineering hull which provides energy for ship's systems. (I always imagine reactor no. 3 being smaller than the twin reactors upstairs, but I can't remember if I have a solid reason for that or if that's just my taste). Reactor no. 3 is somehow critical to the functioning of the other two, perhaps it's frequency or whatever is tied into the other two in order to keep all three systems chugging along at the same rhythm or ...who cares? Anyhow, Third season hijinks where "THE reactor" is tampered with and thereby threaten the whole ship's survival is due to this feature.

IIRC the (very few) statements from the show that suggest a sole central reactor are in S3 while all other bits of dialogue (not to mention MJ's preproduction materials) all point to reactors in nacelles. Also at one point (I want to say it was Chekov in "The Day of the Dove" in reference to the Pinwheel Monster of Hate but I'm not certain just now and it's too late and I'm too tired to bother fact-checking this at the moment) but there is a line of dialogue somewhere where mention is made of what turns out to be the Engineering set which specifies something being near "Reactor Number three." This jives perfectly with my three reactor model.*

How does this fit into the larger franchise? TNG+ (not to mention the NX-01) all follow the single central reactor model. No doubt, that is the ideal set-up. It make sense to have a central power source to run everything from. But, I posit that the warp engine technology and the reactor technology developed out of sync. In the 2150s, the warp 5 engines only needed power that the single central reactor model was up to the task of providing. However, by the 2240's when the Connies were being put together, the reactors were not up to snuff to power the energy hogs that were the warp 8 engines. (Up to warp 14 (!) with the right modifications!) So, give each of these beasts its own dedicated generator and we're off to the races. Keep a third generator in the ship for the ship's stuff and also you'll need to tie the main ones into the central one for (reasons) and you can go explore space for five year stretches in comfort and security. But the reactor engineers back home at the reactor engineering factory weren't resting on their laurels. They were catching up and by the 2270s they had figured out a whole new reactor type that was handily able to run both warp engines and all the ship's system with juice to spare and so the single central reactor model prevails once more.

Goodnight!

--Alex

*I like to call it "MY three reactor model" because I thought it all up by myself years ago before I ever set foot on TrekBBS. But I can't be too possessive of it, cause through the BBS I've found that a lot of guys have imagined the same or very similar models of the TOS E's reactor set up all by themselves also. It's one of those things where the evidence does seem to be pointing in a particular direction so it shouldn't be surprising that different people arrive at similar conclusions.

--AM

 

[Mytran]

A car engine uses gasoline, but that doesn't mean the gas tank is kept with the engine. And though one sends gasoline to it, one can send a M/AM reaction product to the engines, too, and still claim they use those things to make us go.

Which is why I didn't post that quote from the series bible with any other intention than to demonstrate that, from the beginning, the show creators had established the use of a M/AM reaction to drive the drive as well as the function of the nacelles.

The Enterprise engines (the two outboard nacelles) use matter and anti-matter for propulsion, the annihilation of dual matter creating the fantastic power required to warp space and exceed the speed of light.

That's all it was.

And you think that proves there must be antimatter there? Positive and negative energy equates to matter and antimatter? There is a conversion of M to E (E=mc^2), but this doesn't prove there is antimatter in the nacelle, but more likely some product that will react badly with positive energy, whatever that is, or opening it will provide a conduit down to the core where they do keep the AM, I am not convinced by this one.

Nope, just to show that the nacelles are sometimes called "matter-antimatter nacelles" and to suggest that there is probably a good reason why the nacelles have that suffix.
All that stuff about "positive" and "negative" energy has nothing to do with this conversation. Here is the complete conversation, to put it in context:

KIRK: Well?
SPOCK: Impossible, Captain. The {Kelvan} power source is protected by a material we cannot breach even with our phasers. Mister Scott and I have prepared the means for the only logical alternative available to us.
KIRK: What alternative?
SPOCK: The barrier we must penetrate is composed of negative energy.
SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.
KIRK: What?
SPOCK: When we engage the barrier, the ship will explode. The Kelvans will be stopped here.
SCOTT: And so will we.

Hope that helps.

Suggestive, but not conclusive, IMO, or more suggestive and conclusive they improperly use names for things, or have alternative names that may not fully tell what something is or how it works. The nacelles use the stuff we get from the M/AM reaction, so calling them AM nacelles is a possibility just for that.

Energy is generated, not power, but energy is often converted from one form to another (potential, kinetic, chemical, heat, sound, of a type never before encountered, captain). So it may be the EPS drive plasma he speaks about and not antimatter, which is more properly called mass and not energy, anyway.

Exactly right; the mere name by itself is not conclusive enough, as is the mere mention of energy emissions. However, taken in context with the other quotations I provided it is indicative of the function of the nacelles in TOS.

That one is more promising. But maybe using the nacelles as magnetic bottles themselves, that's a good place to dump the AM and jettison it away rather than directly into space, for which they have no safe means to do that and would risk contact with AM. It would be similar to dumping the warp core now - you just empty the M/AM reactor (core) via the nacelles to safely contain it for a time and dump those and send them safely away from the ship.

Pod, fuel tank, etc. just seems to me to be some form of magnetic bottle, which can hold super heated plasma antimatter, or super heated plasma matter, which seems to be fuel derived from the M/AM reaction regulated through the dilithium matrix. The fact you can also store AM directly into one of these things, too, isn't surprising, and may have been its original purpose, and got the name for that fact, even if that's no longer its most common use.

The thing is, if you believe that all those usages of the term "pod" are references to antimatter storage pods in the main body of the ship (which was certainly the case in TNG) then you also need to consider that dialogue in That Which Survives clearly states that they had the capability of ejecting the pods when needed. So, why go to all the bother of jettisoning the nacelles?

But where Scotty is crawling is nowhere near the nacelles. But if you think each nacelle needs its own dilithium matrix, and they have multiple matrix assemblies around the ship, A.) what is that one Scott plays with in engineering, and B.) why is it so important to warp drive and weapons, and C.) can't they borrow dilithium from a less critical system to fix a more important one at that moment if they have more than one?

Doesn't seem to be since it's on the other side of that wall in engineering, IIRC. But with artificial gravity, one could be in any orientation. It just seemed to me to be the main M/AM integration spot, in main engineerings, from which the plasma product would be directed to each nacelle.

In fact we don't know where Scotty is crawling around in during the episode. The entry foyer and crawlway are a brand new set and their location on board ship is never specified, beyond the fact that the crawlway leads to the interior of the M/AM Integrator.

The bridge, yeah. So? Do you say since they emit some power, they therefore must emit enough power to actually power a whole starship (and M/AM is only used to, scoff, regenerate those crystals)? Those boys detects all sorts of weird things at a distance, and hypersonic elements is certainly one of them. I'm not surprise they give off some energy readings. So do most fish during in the mud. Ask any hammerhead you happen to see, what's the best tuna?

No, I was responding to your own earlier comment and agreeing that dilthium has been known to give off detectable emissions:

I recall a necessary component of that was dilithium (or crystalized lithium) as part of a power circuit (and not really the source of power, even if Spock detects power readings from them, that's just the nature of one of those hypersonic series elements and that power could be vanishingly small).

Anything beyond is your own speculation, as I never said that dilithium crystals were a source of power for the whole starship.

Hmmmmm. The cold intermix formula! They talk of heating stuff up. Well, you can't have warp without dilithium/lithium. And the M/AM reaction is mostly used for the power it takes to warp, and a relatively small amount for other ship systems. I think it's implied, but if it's not explicit enough for you, I probably don't have the right stuff to change your mind here, I don’t think.

To be more precise, Scotty complains that you can't mix matter and antimatter cold. No mention is made of heating crystals or indeed crystals a, even though they were prominently featured in Mudd's Women 3 episodes earlier. That is probably because the crystals performed a very different function in MW which was nothing to do with acting as a M/AM mediator.

I just Google the title and the word "transcript" and it's usually the first thing that comes up. I should put all 79 in one file so I can search all of TOS at one time. Ha. But not everything uttered in dialogue can or should be taken as absolute, IMO. We should take it, if we can. But if it's a huge problem, and likely the product of a mistake or poor foresight, we should at least possibly discard it or alter it. I mean, they never really say anything other than "THE transporter room" but do we derive from this there is only one, despite alterations in equipment, console position, apparent deck number, etc.? I think there's more than one. But prove it with TOS dialogue? I don't think so.

On these forums, quoting dialogue is often easier and more direct than posting video clips of the episodes (which are what is considered canon)

In the case of the Transporter Rooms we don't need to take the dialogue of "THE Transporter Room" lierally as we are presented with several different versions of the set throughout each season. As a result, the implication of there being more than one T-room is not a stretch.

Consistency is a luxury we cannot afford.

Maybe not, but context should certainly be taken into account.

 

[JRTStarlight]

The thing is, if you believe that all those usages of the term "pod" are references to antimatter storage pods in the main body of the ship (which was certainly the case in TNG) then you also need to consider that dialogue in That Which Survives clearly states that they had the capability of ejecting the pods when needed. So, why go to all the bother of jettisoning the nacelles?

The nacelles may have designed to be discarded like that in emergencies (just like dumping the warp core later while active, and when antimatter is elsewhere besides just in a storage pod, so it can safely be sent to a nacelle to be jettisoned). But ITWS, some things were no longer possible since the normal bypass was fused, and Scotty is doing something weird for which he had to place new and special charges (not standard ones already in place) to blast him, that area, and the antimatter away from the ship, probably causing considerable damage, but saving the ship. Anyway, the sabotage prevented the normal possibilities. We never did see them separate the saucer or jettison the nacelles in TOS, though they spoke of the possibilities. And if TOS has a warp core, I don't think it is designed to be jettisoned like in TNG or VOY, but might use the nacelles like that. Regardless of guesswork, the sabotage alone means you can count on normal operations working.

In fact we don't know where Scotty is crawling around in during the episode. The entry foyer and crawlway are a brand new set and their location on board ship is never specified, beyond the fact that the crawlway leads to the interior of the M/AM Integrator.

I thought it was on the other side of the wall (where the bypass control was and Watkins was killed), but I guess that horizontal Jeffries tube could have been anywhere, though I don't think it was in a nacelle strut since there are two of those and cutting off one isn't going to do it. This suggests to me they are dealing with the warp core, the main M/AM integrator, somewhere in the engineering section and near the hull and not further in the interior, so they can realistically be blasted clear, so it's probably near the bottom of the ship. Of course it was never called the warp core in TOS. And like I said, with artificial gravity, any orientation of this or that is virtually meaningless since gravity can be going in any direction, so the access crawlway could have been anywhere, and the fact it's horizontal and not one inclined upwards doesn't really tell us anything. Though there is a whole room and a normal corridor just outside that service crawlway, for what that's worth.

Maybe not, but context should certainly be taken into account.

And in what context can the Enterprise go nearly 1000 light years under its own steam in less than half a day and still be consistent? You just can't put too much faith even in quotable dialogue. At top speed, it should have taken the Enterprise about 1.67 years to get back. If they can be THAT wrong about one thing, they can be wrong about anything. But what can you expect from a bit of fiction that has a thousand moving parts, none of which need really work to first be used, and so many writers who frequently couldn't give a tinker's cuss about, well, what tinkers care about.

 

[Mytran]

The model I use to best reconcile all the evidence from TOS itself is a three reactor setup.

Reactor no. 1 is up in one nacelle, providing power directly to the warp field coils behind it, reactor no. 2 is the mirror image of no. 1 but in the other nacelle. There is also a third reactor down in the engineering hull which provides energy for ship's systems. (I always imagine reactor no. 3 being smaller than the twin reactors upstairs, but I can't remember if I have a solid reason for that or if that's just my taste). Reactor no. 3 is somehow critical to the functioning of the other two, perhaps it's frequency or whatever is tied into the other two in order to keep all three systems chugging along at the same rhythm or ...who cares? Anyhow, Third season hijinks where "THE reactor" is tampered with and thereby threaten the whole ship's survival is due to this feature.

IIRC the (very few) statements from the show that suggest a sole central reactor are in S3 while all other bits of dialogue (not to mention MJ's preproduction materials) all point to reactors in nacelles. Also at one point (I want to say it was Chekov in "The Day of the Dove" in reference to the Pinwheel Monster of Hate but I'm not certain just now and it's too late and I'm too tired to bother fact-checking this at the moment) but there is a line of dialogue somewhere where mention is made of what turns out to be the Engineering set which specifies something being near "Reactor Number three." This jives perfectly with my three reactor model.*

How does this fit into the larger franchise? TNG+ (not to mention the NX-01) all follow the single central reactor model. No doubt, that is the ideal set-up. It make sense to have a central power source to run everything from. But, I posit that the warp engine technology and the reactor technology developed out of sync. In the 2150s, the warp 5 engines only needed power that the single central reactor model was up to the task of providing. However, by the 2240's when the Connies were being put together, the reactors were not up to snuff to power the energy hogs that were the warp 8 engines. (Up to warp 14 (!) with the right modifications!) So, give each of these beasts its own dedicated generator and we're off to the races. Keep a third generator in the ship for the ship's stuff and also you'll need to tie the main ones into the central one for (reasons) and you can go explore space for five year stretches in comfort and security. But the reactor engineers back home at the reactor engineering factory weren't resting on their laurels. They were catching up and by the 2270s they had figured out a whole new reactor type that was handily able to run both warp engines and all the ship's system with juice to spare and so the single central reactor model prevails once more.

Goodnight!

--Alex

*I like to call it "MY three reactor model" because I thought it all up by myself years ago before I ever set foot on TrekBBS. But I can't be too possessive of it, cause through the BBS I've found that a lot of guys have imagined the same or very similar models of the TOS E's reactor set up all by themselves also. It's one of those things where the evidence does seem to be pointing in a particular direction so it shouldn't be surprising that different people arrive at similar conclusions.

--AM

The 3 reactor model (and yes I have seen it elsewhere too!) is a really good setup that ticks the majority of the boxes in TOS (although I still prefer my own interpretation )

Arguably, the biggest stretch is the switch from single reactor (ENT) to outboard reactors (TOS) and single reactor again (TMP-TNG). However, I think that the NX-01 is a good candidate to have a 3-reactor setup as well. The purpose of the third reactor (in the engine room set) is to full and fine tune the warp field via the "symmetrical warp field governor" (the thing that looks like the TMP Impulse Crystal). Without this doodad and it's specialised reactor the two hulking nacelles have no way of precisely matching each others' output and the ship would quickly tear itself apart at such high speeds. That (in my mind) is the revolutionary component invented by Archer Snr which made Warp 5 travel possible.

YMMV

The nacelles may have designed to be discarded like that in emergencies (just like dumping the warp core later while active, and when antimatter is elsewhere besides just in a storage pod, so it can safely be sent to a nacelle to be jettisoned). But ITWS, some things were no longer possible since the normal bypass was fused, and Scotty is doing something weird for which he had to place new and special charges (not standard ones already in place) to blast him, that area, and the antimatter away from the ship, probably causing considerable damage, but saving the ship. Anyway, the sabotage prevented the normal possibilities. We never did see them separate the saucer or jettison the nacelles in TOS, though they spoke of the possibilities. And if TOS has a warp core, I don't think it is designed to be jettisoned like in TNG or VOY, but might use the nacelles like that. Regardless of guesswork, the sabotage alone means you can count on normal operations working.

Why would antimatter (in your TNG style setup) ever be anywhere other than in the storage tanks or in the reactor itself? Routing it up to the nacelles to jettison THOSE instead seems needlessly complicated if not outright reckless, especially as we have an explicit example of a pod ejection system that can be controlled from the Bridge. Just press the button!

I thought it was on the other side of the wall (where the bypass control was and Watkins was killed), but I guess that horizontal Jeffries tube could have been anywhere, though I don't think it was in a nacelle strut since there are two of those and cutting off one isn't going to do it. This suggests to me they are dealing with the warp core, the main M/AM integrator, somewhere in the engineering section and near the hull and not further in the interior, so they can realistically be blasted clear, so it's probably near the bottom of the ship. Of course it was never called the warp core in TOS. And like I said, with artificial gravity, any orientation of this or that is virtually meaningless since gravity can be going in any direction, so the access crawlway could have been anywhere, and the fact it's horizontal and not one inclined upwards doesn't really tell us anything. Though there is a whole room and a normal corridor just outside that service crawlway, for what that's worth.

No: The hatch, the room its in and the small amount of corridor we glimpse through the door are never given a precise or even a general location on board ship. The access crawlway leads to the M/AM integrator; that is all we know. See also my earlier post.

As for why Scotty only needs to shut down one reactor, that is (assuming the reactors are in the nacelles) because only one was sabotaged - and only one needed to be sabotaged. After all, for the Enterprise to fly smoothly both nacelles need to precisely match each other in terms of output. If one changes it's output, automated systems will increase the other one to match. If one increases its output dramatically and can't be stopped, the safest solution is what we see - a continual automated increase in speed until the crew can figure something out. It's an extremely unlikely scenario, but then again the sabotage was extremely good.

And in what context can the Enterprise go nearly 1000 light years under its own steam in less than half a day and still be consistent? You just can't put too much faith even in quotable dialogue. At top speed, it should have taken the Enterprise about 1.67 years to get back. If they can be THAT wrong about one thing, they can be wrong about anything. But what can you expect from a bit of fiction that has a thousand moving parts, none of which need really work to first be used, and so many writers who frequently couldn't give a tinker's cuss about, well, what tinkers care about.

Glad you asked. There are numerous examples of ships in TOS, TNG, and even ENT which travel far faster than their purported speeds on the warp field chart. The reason for this has been speculated upon widely and a common consensus is that the actual speed you travel is dependant on local subspace conditions (also known as as "subspace highways"). These local conditions can either slow down or speed up a vessel depending on exactly what's happening. Another thing that is frequently observed in episodes is that a ship's speed is dramatically reduced when in the proximity of a large gravitational body such as a planet or a star.

In the case of TWS, the Enterprise was moved nearly 1,000 light years by an incredibly powerful transporter beam. That sort of manoeuvre is going to leave one hell of a dent in local subspace, allowing our heroes to race race to the planet (while conditions last anyway) as ridiculously higher speeds than usual.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Why would antimatter (in your TNG style setup) ever be anywhere other than in the storage tanks or in the reactor itself? Routing it up to the nacelles to jettison THOSE instead seems needlessly complicated if not outright reckless, especially as we have an explicit example of a pod ejection system that can be controlled from the Bridge. Just press the button!

Which system? The one Scotty expressly put into place only after the sabotage? So AM is normally in the AM storage POD(s), and it is normally directed from there out to the dilithium M/AM reactor assembly in small quantities (and the high energy plasma product is then directed to the nacelles, or other EPS power taps in the ship and converted to simple electricity in many cases). One might assume those AM pods are deep inside the ship and well protected so a hull rupture won't easily destroy the entire ship, so those aren't designed to be blasted away with the push of a button because such protection makes that impossible in this CCStarship design. Think of all the times the warp engines were damaged or venting drive plasma. If you kept actual AM there in such a relatively vulnerable part of the ship, it wouldn't be leaking drive plasma, but AM, resulting in not a damaged ship, but a disintegrated one.

The emergency overload bypass is designed to get rid of the AM in some way if the magnetic containment fails. What way? Perhaps it blasts the AM POD(s) clear, but it's more likely we're talking about the AM already in the integrator system and out of the POD(s). The AM still in the POD(s) is likely easy to close off and contained with multiple redundancies and independent battery backups to keep the magnetic bottle powered up. Storage is safe and easy that way. But the AM out and in the assembly isn't. That magnetic containment might fail, and if it does, the overload bypass system somehow grabs it, holds it, and gets rid of it. It gives one about an extra 2 seconds of time to do this. In that time, it may direct the light, super heated AM into the nacelles (and at nearly the speed of light if the magnetism for that system is strong enough), which can contain it like a magnetic bottle for a short time, and jettison the nacelles safely away from the ship so loose AM isn't just colliding with debris or other matter in the immediate vicinity, which could destroy the ship. This process is like the normal ejection of a warp core in TNG/VOY/others but the older set up isn't so clean and must use those scant seconds to magnetically direct the free AM to the nacelles and blast them clear. That's the design. But when the system is fused via sabotage, that won't work. So Scotty set up some new explosive charges to blast him, that area, and the AM, all away from the ship at the push of a button from the bridge. I mean, who on the bridge has the reaction time to do what the bypass system does in 2 seconds? They wouldn't know about it until long after it was too late, let alone get the order and push the button in less than two seconds. The idea a manually push the button system exist seems unlikely to me to an automated one, but I suppose one must have a way to do it manually if you want. But that system would be to jettison the nacelles.

Now why exactly in TWS they can't shut off the antimatter at its source escapes me, but I guess the PODs are stuck in the open position. So they have to drain it all. Fine, they can, and normally in less than two seconds, but for the sabotage which has fused critical components. Now the only way to do it is to blast the whole area clear of the ship, or somehow interrupt the AM flow, which might automatically close the AM POD(s). Scotty accomplished this task. Then the system rebooted and they had control over the open/close system on the POD(s) again, but would still have to repair the fused emergency bypass systems to use that again in case of another emergency.

In the newer TNG design, they decided ejecting the whole warp core would save a couple seconds, so designed the ship to both keep the warp core protected deep in the interior, but also allow it a clear path and means to be jettisoned from the ship (automatically in most cases, though manually, too, I'd imagine).

Maybe. Because of the dilithium ore.

Ore?

Ore something else.

The access crawlway leads to the M/AM integrator; that is all we know.

Not that is carries convincing weight for many, but Memory Alpha says that access crawlway is accessed through the matter-antimatter integrator control, located just off the main engineering section. I think that's what it's saying.

As for why Scotty only needs to shut down one reactor, that is (assuming the reactors are in the nacelles) because only one was sabotaged - and only one needed to be sabotaged. After all, for the Enterprise to fly smoothly both nacelles need to precisely match each other in terms of output. If one changes its output, automated systems will increase the other one to match. If one increases its output dramatically and can't be stopped, the safest solution is what we see - a continual automated increase in speed until the crew can figure something out. It's an extremely unlikely scenario, but then again the sabotage was extremely good.

It wasn't that good a job of sabotage. People with that power could have just destroyed the ship outright. I guess they figured they'd give them a chance to wise up and not come back, which Spock failed to do. But after that, and they decided to blow them up, they could have just opened an AM POD. It would have been far easier. You might even have to sacrifice a holographic projection - oh my!

Anyway, I guess if one can't slow one engine down, and seriously mismatched engines would result in blowing up and not just dropping out of warp, an automated system to boost the other engine is a possibility. I'm never sure what structural strain is placed on the ship in space (maybe the struts will tear off if the engines push too hard), but the rest of the ship is following. But that problem would be acceleration and not velocity, but they only speak of the velocity like that's the issue. Perhaps the acceleration is increasing too and not just the velocity.

Shutting down one reactor like you suggest seems to me that all that work would take place in one nacelle. I just don't get that impression from the fact the emergency overload bypass is one unit, not two, and in engineering, and that's the thing that is sabotaged. She wasn't up in the nacelle doing anything, as far as we saw, with reactor #1 or #2, as you surmise are there.

Glad you asked. There are numerous examples of ships in TOS, TNG, and even ENT that travel far faster than their purported speeds on the warp field chart. The reason for this has been speculated upon widely and a common consensus is that the actual speed you travel is dependent on local subspace conditions (also known as "subspace highways"). These local conditions can either slow down or speed up a vessel depending on exactly what's happening. Another thing that is frequently observed in episodes is that a ship's speed is dramatically reduced when in the proximity of a large gravitational body such as a planet or a star.

In the case of TWS, the Enterprise was moved nearly 1,000 light years by an incredibly powerful transporter beam. That sort of maneuver is going to leave one hell of a dent in local subspace, allowing our heroes to race to the planet (while conditions last anyway) as ridiculously higher speeds than usual.

I have always liked subspace highways, and feel many problems could be handled that way to getting around in Trek despite the painfully slow speeds of warp 9 (yeah, space is THAT big). But they do this a lot and without benefit of recently created subspace conditions, I'd imagine, and I would rather say they made a mistake or misspoke and it's O.K. to ignore or correct dialogue when it's clearly the product of carelessness. For example - for 990.7 light years, just read 9.907, or however far one can travel at warp 8 in 12 hours (won't bother to calculate).

Also, your fix assumes a great deal of things that they really ought to frequently mention in every series if that's what's actually happening. IMO, the actual dialogue is not so sacred that it is always to be taken literally.

 

[Mytran]

Which system? The one Scotty expressly put into place only after the sabotage?

Yes, the one hard-wired into the Bridge control panel for just this kind of emergency. Maybe the explosives have to be manually primed in order to avoid accidental detonation (remember how dangerous Scotty said that a saucer separation would be back in The Apple?) but that doesn't change the fact that a system is in place during the events of That Which Survives and would still be around for Savage Curtain.

So AM is normally in the AM storage POD(s), and it is normally directed from there out to the dilithium M/AM reactor assembly in small quantities (and the high energy plasma product is then directed to the nacelles, or other EPS power taps in the ship and converted to simple electricity in many cases). One might assume those AM pods are deep inside the ship and well protected so a hull rupture won't easily destroy the entire ship, so those aren't designed to be blasted away with the push of a button because such protection makes that impossible in this CCStarship design.

Yet it's good enough for starships in the TNG era? That's not consistent with the unchanging technological model you proposed upthread. And wouldn't it be safer for the dangerous stuff to be more easily jettisoned if the containment tech were less reliable?

Think of all the times the warp engines were damaged or venting drive plasma.

In TOS? Not so much. You're still thinking TNG era

If you kept actual AM there in such a relatively vulnerable part of the ship, it wouldn't be leaking drive plasma, but AM, resulting in not a damaged ship, but a disintegrated one.

That's what shields are for. And physical shielding (mentioned in SC). And the magnetic containment systems themselves (mentioned in TWS). Without any of those things, any starship in the TOS era is vulnerable to being carved up like a roast by phaser beams anyway.

The emergency overload bypass is designed to get rid of the AM in some way if the magnetic containment fails. What way? Perhaps it blasts the AM POD(s) clear, but it's more likely we're talking about the AM already in the integrator system and out of the POD(s). The AM still in the POD(s) is likely easy to close off and contained with multiple redundancies and independent battery backups to keep the magnetic bottle powered up. Storage is safe and easy that way. But the AM out and in the assembly isn't. That magnetic containment might fail, and if it does, the overload bypass system somehow grabs it, holds it, and gets rid of it. It gives one about an extra 2 seconds of time to do this. In that time, it may direct the light, super heated AM into the nacelles (and at nearly the speed of light if the magnetism for that system is strong enough), which can contain it like a magnetic bottle for a short time, and jettison the nacelles safely away from the ship so loose AM isn't just colliding with debris or other matter in the immediate vicinity, which could destroy the ship. This process is like the normal ejection of a warp core in TNG/VOY/others but the older set up isn't so clean and must use those scant seconds to magnetically direct the free AM to the nacelles and blast them clear. That's the design. But when the system is fused via sabotage, that won't work. So Scotty set up some new explosive charges to blast him, that area, and the AM, all away from the ship at the push of a button from the bridge. I mean, who on the bridge has the reaction time to do what the bypass system does in 2 seconds? They wouldn't know about it until long after it was too late, let alone get the order and push the button in less than two seconds. The idea a manually push the button system exist seems unlikely to me to an automated one, but I suppose one must have a way to do it manually if you want. But that system would be to jettison the nacelles.

Now why exactly in TWS they can't shut off the antimatter at its source escapes me, but I guess the PODs are stuck in the open position. So they have to drain it all. Fine, they can, and normally in less than two seconds, but for the sabotage which has fused critical components. Now the only way to do it is to blast the whole area clear of the ship, or somehow interrupt the AM flow, which might automatically close the AM POD(s). Scotty accomplished this task. Then the system rebooted and they had control over the open/close system on the POD(s) again, but would still have to repair the fused emergency bypass systems to use that again in case of another emergency.

In the newer TNG design, they decided ejecting the whole warp core would save a couple seconds, so designed the ship to both keep the warp core protected deep in the interior, but also allow it a clear path and means to be jettisoned from the ship (automatically in most cases, though manually, too, I'd imagine).

Maybe. Because of the dilithium ore.

Ore?

Ore something else.

That's a good setup, but one which ignores the clear points outlaid in the episode itself. TOS was very good at avoiding treknobable, because real people don't talk like that:

SCOTT: Aye, Mister Spock, and I found out why. The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused. It's completely useless. The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them. We should reach maximum overload in about fifteen minutes.

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: What with? Bare hands?
SPOCK: A magnetic probe.

IOW, there's too much antimatter being pumped into the reaction chamber, but they can't shut it down because the bypass system (which presumably routes unused antimatter back into the storage tanks) is fused.
Result: The engines keep pushing the ship faster and faster
Solution: Climb into the reaction chamber and stop any more antimatter coming into it right there on the spot. Dangerous!
Notice that in this scenario access to the engineering systems is extremely limited, no doubt because everything is currently "on".

The side inference from this dialogue is that it is the integrator itself which draws antimatter in from the tanks. The amount it draws is controlled by the bypass systems (which are now fused)

Not that is carries convincing weight for many, but Memory Alpha says that access crawlway is accessed through the matter-antimatter integrator control, located just off the main engineering section. I think that's what it's saying.

That's actually a really good example of how unreliable Memory Alpha is. The picture they use on that article is of Spock and Scotty standing next to the overload bypass controls, not the integrator controls.
How do I know this? They straight up TELL YOU in the episode itself:

LOSIRA: Show me this unit. I wish to learn.
WATKINS: This is the matter-antimatter integrator control. That's the cut off switch.
LOSIRA: Not correct. That is the emergency overload bypass, which engages almost instantaneously. A wise precaution, considering it takes the antimatter longer to explode once the magnetic flow fails. I am for you, Mister Watkins.
WATKINS: Mister Scott, there's a strange woman who knows the entire plan of the Enterprise.

The location of the integrator and the crawlway foyer is stated as a fact without citing any sources. As I have explained twice already in this thread, the actual episode itself does not specify any location for the new set. It could be adjacent to the Engine Room (as it was on the soundstage) or at the other end of the ship (in universe). We simply are not told.

MA is good for the broad strokes but little else.

It wasn't that good a job of sabotage. People with that power could have just destroyed the ship outright. I guess they figured they'd give them a chance to wise up and not come back, which Spock failed to do. But after that, and they decided to blow them up, they could have just opened an AM POD. It would have been far easier. You might even have to sacrifice a holographic projection - oh my!

The fact that the holo-Losira didn't do any of those things suggests that she was either unaware or incapable of doing those things. The solution (if you recall) was an innovative bit of thinking dreamed up by two of Starfleet's brightest, performed at extreme risk. Oh, and you forgot to mention the auto-destruct

Shutting down one reactor like you suggest seems to me that all that work would take place in one nacelle. I just don't get that impression from the fact the emergency overload bypass is one unit, not two, and in engineering, and that's the thing that is sabotaged. She wasn't up in the nacelle doing anything, as far as we saw, with reactor #1 or #2, as you surmise are there.

Losira murders Watkins, switches off the bypass and then teleports somewhere else. We have no idea where she went but the later report of damage to the bypass systems strongly implies that she went there afterwards.

I have always liked subspace highways, and feel many problems could be handled that way to getting around in Trek despite the painfully slow speeds of warp 9 (yeah, space is THAT big). But they do this a lot and without benefit of recently created subspace conditions, I'd imagine, and I would rather say they made a mistake or misspoke and it's O.K. to ignore or correct dialogue when it's clearly the product of carelessness. For example - for 990.7 light years, just read 9.907, or however far one can travel at warp 8 in 12 hours (won't bother to calculate). Also, your fix assumes a great deal of things that they really ought to frequently mention in every series if that's what's actually happening.

That was actually one of the principal writing practises that Roddenbery wanted in Star Trek from the beginning - real people don't stand around telling each other things that they already know. They don't explain (what is to them) everyday tech to each other. It's stuff they already know.

IMO, the actual dialogue is not so sacred that it is always to be taken literally.

Absolutely. As an ongoing series earlier dialogue must often be reinterpreted or at least looked at with fresh eyes in relation to the rest of the universe as it is revealed. It needs to be looked at in relation to the visuals. And the context of the conversations need to be taken into account too - i.e. in a tense situation officers are more likely to use shorthand to describe intended actions and may not always mean exactly what they seem to say.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Yes, the one hard-wired into the Bridge control panel for just this kind of emergency. Maybe the explosives have to be manually primed in order to avoid accidental detonation (remember how dangerous Scotty said that a saucer separation would be back in The Apple?)

If so, then a button would be useless in an emergency. It would take too long to manually prime the explosives before you can push the button. And everybody says it's dangerous to separate the saucer.

but that doesn't change the fact that a system is in place during the events of That Which Survives and would still be around for Savage Curtain.

That is not a fact. It may have been set up in TWS only due to the sabotage, and later taken out once repairs were completed, relying once again on the fixed emergency overload bypass circuit - the EOB.

Yet it's good enough for starships in the TNG era? That's not consistent with the unchanging technological model you proposed upthread. And wouldn't it be safer for the dangerous stuff to be more easily jettisoned if the containment tech were less reliable?

I think there is a misunderstanding. We need to keep the AM pods in the interior (TOS and TNG) since to keep them near the hull invites disaster. In TOS, the warp core is in the interior, too, and cannot be ejected (lack of foresight in that design, but they devised the emergency overload bypass which (I surmise) shunts AM already out of the AM PODs to the warp nacelles, which can serve momentarily as magnetic bottles, and blast those clear of the ship safely carrying the free AM away. By TNG, they learned their lesson and save time by making a clear path from the interior warp core (still as protected) toward the outer hull, but the price is all that wasted space from where the core is, and along the long path it needs to slide out of the ship. But it saves time and requires less equipment. All in all, it's a safer design, and we aren't fighting for elbowroom as much anymore, so it's worth it.

And I'm not quite sure what you're asking me in the second part of that quote.

In TOS? Not so much. You're still thinking TNG era

You mean like the Reliant trailing drive plasma in the Mutara Nebula? So, you feel just because a low budget show speaks of warp engine damage but never shows it, that it can't be venting drive plasma? And was 1701's warp drive never damaged? I think it was, despite the shields.

That's what shields are for. And physical shielding (mentioned in SC). And the magnetic containment systems themselves (mentioned in TWS). Without any of those things, any starship in the TOS era is vulnerable to being carved up like a roast by phaser beams anyway.

Shields, physical and energy, magnetic containment, etc. is true in each case, but by putting AM in the nacelles as a matter of normal operation, you are exposing them more and giving them one or two less layers of protection. I'm not saying nacelles are unshielded, but people are forever targeting engines.

That's a good setup, but one which ignores the clear points outlaid in the episode itself. TOS was very good at avoiding treknobable, because real people don't talk like that:

Treknobabble? You think I'm making up random words that just "sound" like they mean something clever? And how am I ignoring TWS?

IOW, there's too much antimatter being pumped into the reaction chamber,

Right, they can't shut those PODs - they are stuck in the open position, and the AM is coming out at the maximum rate the dilithium assembly can handle (which means not all at once, but faster than they'd like). This is another part of the sabotage of that system, IMO, which will require the EOB to save the ship, but that's sabotaged too, so it will blow up.

but they can't shut it down because the bypass system (which presumably routes unused antimatter back into the storage tanks) is fused.

Memory Alpha: "The emergency overload bypass, or emergency bypass control, was an engineering component aboard Constitution-class starships which acted to prevent a catastrophic explosion in the event of loss of magnetic containment. It was accessed through the matter-antimatter integrator control, located just off the main engineering section."

How the EOB works isn't really explained in detail. But when it works, is. When the magnetic containment field fails. How? Just that it gives extra time once the normal magnetic containment is lost before the AM explodes (and that it's a wise precaution).

Result: The engines keep pushing the ship faster and faster
Solution: Climb into the reaction chamber and stop any more antimatter coming into it right there on the spot. Dangerous!

Notice that in this scenario access to the engineering systems is extremely limited, no doubt because everything is currently "on".

Just faster and faster, though the magnetic containment field has been lost? That's what the EOB takes care of. And if they lost magnetic containment, a warp core breech would result - it would not just start going faster and faster. And Scotty is in the integrator control while the magnetic field is on, so they sure haven't lost magnetic containment. So it must be something else. Loss of magnetic containment, soon resulting in a warp core breech, would be taken care of by the EOB, but that's been sabotaged. In fact, the matter-antimatter integrator control, which contains the emergency overload bypass circuit, has been sabotaged, and it all is completely fused.

The side inference from this dialogue is that it is the integrator itself that draws antimatter in from the tanks. The amount it draws is controlled by the bypass systems (which are now fused)

I agree the integrator draws AM in from the tanks, but it is not the bypass system that controls it - the bypass system is for emergencies only - not normal use. This integrator is probably part of the dilithium assembly. But the emergency bypass system is not the integrator, and the EOB is said to take care of loss of magnetic containment (when if nothing is done a warp core breech would result, so it grants more time, somehow, to prevent an AM explosion).

While the M/AM integrator control panel is there just off engineering, since it's always possible it is controlling the actual M/AM integrator remotely and the integrator itself is half way across the ship, the crawlway could be anywhere. But this seems silly. It seems far more likely the crawlway to the integrator is close to, or just on the other side of the control panel for the integrator. But I cannot prove it.

That's actually a really good example of how unreliable Memory Alpha is. The picture they use on that article is of Spock and Scotty standing next to the overload bypass controls, not the integrator controls.

How do I know this? They straight up TELL YOU in the episode itself:

It is, in fact, both, which they tell you straight up in the episode.

"SCOTT: Aye, Mister Spock, and I found out why. The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused."

Watkins tried to fool Losira by pointing to the wrong switch, or calling it by the wrong name, but that is the matter-antimatter integrator control, and it contains the emergency overload bypass, and while that was not the cut off switch for the M/AM-IC, but the EOB, this control panel handles both those functions or are side-by-side. And this is what was sabotaged, so possibly more than just the emergency function, but some function of the M/AM-IC, too (for example, the flow rate of the AM out of the pods through the dilithium assembly to the integrator). That sure sounds like a M/AM-IC function.

The location of the integrator and the crawlway foyer is stated as a fact without citing any sources. As I have explained twice already in this thread, the actual episode itself does not specify any location for the new set. It could be adjacent to the Engine Room (as it was on the soundstage) or at the other end of the ship (in universe). We simply are not told.

I simply would say again to have the control panel so far away from what it is controlling would be silly, unless what it is controlling is highly dangerous. And yet there's a room, a corridor, and 3 guys are standing there, no problem, and Scotty crawls in without any real difficulty, though one wouldn't normally open the access while the integrator is operating, let alone go inside, so it seems plenty safe enough when it's closed and no reason to think it should be far, far away from the control panel for it. And therefore, a witch. I mean, near the control panel. A switch. Whatever.

MA is good for the broad strokes but little else.

It's possible there are mistakes, sure, but between it and the transcripts, it's PDG and fairly reliable. And Netflix, of course, is handy with all the episodes of Trek from each series at your command.

The fact that the holo-Losira didn't do any of those things suggests that she was either unaware or incapable of doing those things. The solution (if you recall) was an innovative bit of thinking dreamed up by two of Starfleet's brightest, performed at extreme risk. Oh, and you forgot to mention the auto-destruct

I'm not sure it suggests that so much as what was already suggested in the show - that her heart wasn't in it, so it's like she wanted to give them a chance. Even here, though they don't discuss it, there should have been the option to abandon ship. She doesn't wish to kill. Maybe you can't abandon ship at warp, however. But I would think a life pod would just drop out of warp.

She's not very clever, though. Simply lying about which person she was there to kill would be quite effective. Is she playing a game with these boys? Maybe it’s a weird cultural peculiarity of having to give anyone you intend to kill multiple means of escape, if they but prove themselves worthy. Guess the transporter operator, Watkins, and D'Omato didn't measure up. Sulu did, though, that inscrutable fellow. Kirk shouldn't have. Captain, don't let her touch it, it is instant death. Then he lets her touch him. Give me strength.

And I didn't mention the auto-destruct because it takes 3 keys, and Kirk has one.

Losira murders Watkins, switches off the bypass and then teleports somewhere else. We have no idea where she went but the later report of damage to the bypass systems strongly implies that she went there afterwards.

We don’t see what she did, or when she did it. The fact she knew about it despite his lies might suggest she already sabotaged the system. But maybe she asks so she could read his mind, so she would have to do it after. He vanishing after the kill, however, didn't mean to went home, but maybe straight inside the M/AM-IC where she stuck open the AM PODs and fused the EOB so they couldn't save themselves as normal. She's just a hologram so she can go anywhere. It wouldn't suggest she went up into the nacelles unless you assume that's where the M/AM-I is located. I do not. Or that only one engine was effected, and the other was just keeping pace (another assumption to make yet other assumptions work).

That was actually one of the principal writing practices that Roddenberry wanted in Star Trek from the beginning - real people don't stand around telling each other things that they already know. They don't explain (what is to them) everyday tech to each other. It's stuff they already know.

True, you never want to have one character explain to another character something they already should know just so you can explain it to the audience, but there are ways to explain it or ways to mention it or allude to it without doing that. They don't explain the transporter to crewmen, but to guests, for example. I would expect some of those if they had those subspace highways in mind, or a discussion between Kirk and Spock about which subspace highway they might use or how much time they might save. Instead, it's all about warp speed.

Absolutely. As an ongoing series earlier dialogue must often be reinterpreted or at least looked at with fresh eyes in relation to the rest of the universe as it is revealed. It needs to be looked at in relation to the visuals. And the context of the conversations need to be taken into account too - i.e. in a tense situation officers are more likely to use shorthand to describe intended actions and may not always mean exactly what they seem to say.

It would be hard to take most inconsistencies out of Trek even with rewrites. But if one is paid to do it and they already love Trek, it might be one hell of a job to have.

And, as always, I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[Mytran]

If so, then a button would be useless in an emergency. It would take too long to manually prime the explosives before you can push the button.

In every emergency, really? Even the one in TWS? Because there was exactly the amount of time required to implement the procedure in that situation – which is pretty much the only one we have for comparison. The similar one in Savage Curtain gave Scotty hours of warning before the shielding between the matter and antimatter degraded. We might be able to imagine other, more time limited scenarios of enemy attack but that doesn’t mean they happened, nor even that they were viable escapades.

And everybody says it's dangerous to separate the saucer.

Well, Scotty says its dangerous in The Apple and Data says it’s inadvisable to do at warp speed in Encounter At Farpoint but that’s it. Hardly “everybody”.

That is not a fact. It may have been set up in TWS only due to the sabotage, and later taken out once repairs were completed, relying once again on the fixed emergency overload bypass circuit - the EOB.

That's not how facts work. It existed for at least a short time during the events of TWS, therefore it existed. It is a fact.

I think there is a misunderstanding. We need to keep the AM pods in the interior (TOS and TNG) since to keep them near the hull invites disaster. In TOS, the warp core is in the interior, too, and cannot be ejected (lack of foresight in that design, but they devised the emergency overload bypass which (I surmise) shunts AM already out of the AM PODs to the warp nacelles, which can serve momentarily as magnetic bottles, and blast those clear of the ship safely carrying the free AM away. By TNG, they learned their lesson and save time by making a clear path from the interior warp core (still as protected) toward the outer hull, but the price is all that wasted space from where the core is, and along the long path it needs to slide out of the ship. But it saves time and requires less equipment. All in all, it's a safer design, and we aren't fighting for elbowroom as much anymore, so it's worth it.

Yeah, that must be why the Enterprise-D never kept her antimatter pods on Deck 42, right on the exposed lower hull of the ship. Oh, wait:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c3/9d/21/c39d21ad417cc2e016abb5c18e829b5d.jpg
You will also notice that the E-D warp core extends very nearly to the edge of the hull. Hardly a lot of “wasted space” for the “long path” needed for core ejection.

And I'm not quite sure what you're asking me in the second part of that quote.

I ask because you are quite correctly proposing that the engineering tech in the 23rd century would be less advanced than in the 24th century. My comment was to suggest that, consequently; things like antimatter pods are far less likely to be buried inside the ship, instead being in a position to be ejected in the case of a containment failure.

You mean like the Reliant trailing drive plasma in the Mutara Nebula? So, you feel just because a low budget show speaks of warp engine damage but never shows it, that it can't be venting drive plasma? And was 1701's warp drive never damaged? I think it was, despite the shields.

I mean that warp drive plasma was never mentioned until TNG. It may have been part of the TMP warp systems (which was a of a a “totally new design”) but we have no way of knowing if it formed a part of TOS engineering systems or not.

Shields, physical and energy, magnetic containment, etc. is true in each case, but by putting AM in the nacelles as a matter of normal operation, you are exposing them more and giving them one or two less layers of protection. I'm not saying nacelles are unshielded, but people are forever targeting engines.

Equipment needs to go where it needs to go. You’re assuming the presence of warp plasma conduits through the pylons from a central reactor in TOS where there is little suggestion of either of these. Aeroplane nacelles are mounted on the wings, even though that makes them vulnerable to enemy attack, lightning strikes etc. But that is where the most efficient place for them is, nonetheless.

Also, a shieldless starship is able to be carved up by a phaser beam with little effort (see TWOK if you need an example) and that’s probably one of the reasons why the Bridge is located on top of the saucer; easy to swap out, no less vulnerable if power systems go down. Burying a volatile system deep within the secondary hull offers little extra protection if the shields go down and furthermore severely limits ejection options.

Treknobabble? You think I'm making up random words that just "sound" like they mean something clever? And how am I ignoring TWS?

No, just that your setup was overly long and complicated for a situation that really has a very simple solution – a solution described in the very episode you purport to draw from.

Right, they can't shut those PODs - they are stuck in the open position, and the AM is coming out at the maximum rate the dilithium assembly can handle (which means not all at once, but faster than they'd like). This is another part of the sabotage of that system, IMO, which will require the EOB to save the ship, but that's sabotaged too, so it will blow up.

Memory Alpha: "The emergency overload bypass, or emergency bypass control, was an engineering component aboard Constitution-class starships which acted to prevent a catastrophic explosion in the event of loss of magnetic containment. It was accessed through the matter-antimatter integrator control, located just off the main engineering section."

How the EOB works isn't really explained in detail. But when it works, is. When the magnetic containment field fails. How? Just that it gives extra time once the normal magnetic containment is lost before the AM explodes (and that it's a wise precaution).

I really don’t understand why you continue to quote Memory Alpha as a source - it is just someone else’s speculation, nothing more. Go to the original episode and draw your own conclusions, it is far less messy.

Just faster and faster, though the magnetic containment field has been lost? That's what the EOB takes care of. And if they lost magnetic containment, a warp core breech would result - it would not just start going faster and faster. And Scotty is in the integrator control while the magnetic field is on, so they sure haven't lost magnetic containment. So it must be something else. Loss of magnetic containment, soon resulting in a warp core breech, would be taken care of by the EOB, but that's been sabotaged. In fact, the matter-antimatter integrator control, which contains the emergency overload bypass circuit, has been sabotaged, and it all is completely fused.

No, the danger is that if Scotty ruptures the magnetic containment field while attempting to stem the flow of antimatter into the reactor, the whole antimatter supply could blow (since antimatter reacts violently upon contact with any normal matter). Again, this was explained in the episode itself.

I agree the integrator draws AM in from the tanks, but it is not the bypass system that controls it - the bypass system is for emergencies only - not normal use. This integrator is probably part of the dilithium assembly. But the emergency bypass system is not the integrator, and the EOB is said to take care of loss of magnetic containment (when if nothing is done a warp core breech would result, so it grants more time, somehow, to prevent an AM explosion).

While the M/AM integrator control panel is there just off engineering, since it's always possible it is controlling the actual M/AM integrator remotely and the integrator itself is half way across the ship, the crawlway could be anywhere. But this seems silly. It seems far more likely the crawlway to the integrator is close to, or just on the other side of the control panel for the integrator. But I cannot prove it.

Right; my statement was just an inference. We don’t actually know.

It is, in fact, both, which they tell you straight up in the episode.

"SCOTT: Aye, Mister Spock, and I found out why. The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused."

Watkins tried to fool Losira by pointing to the wrong switch, or calling it by the wrong name, but that is the matter-antimatter integrator control, and it contains the emergency overload bypass, and while that was not the cut off switch for the M/AM-IC, but the EOB, this control panel handles both those functions or are side-by-side. And this is what was sabotaged, so possibly more than just the emergency function, but some function of the M/AM-IC, too (for example, the flow rate of the AM out of the pods through the dilithium assembly to the integrator). That sure sounds like a M/AM-IC function.

I simply would say again to have the control panel so far away from what it is controlling would be silly, unless what it is controlling is highly dangerous. And yet there's a room, a corridor, and 3 guys are standing there, no problem, and Scotty crawls in without any real difficulty, though one wouldn't normally open the access while the integrator is operating, let alone go inside, so it seems plenty safe enough when it's closed and no reason to think it should be far, far away from the control panel for it. And therefore, a witch. I mean, near the control panel. A switch. Whatever.

Yes, the control panel could be both. But control panels don’t need to be right next to the machinery they operate. Heck, Scotty has an engineering console on the Bridge. Are we expected to believe that Engineering is right below it? No, because these aren’t directly levers which control ship functions, they are electronic relays!

It's possible there are mistakes, sure, but between it and the transcripts, it's PDG and fairly reliable. And Netflix, of course, is handy with all the episodes of Trek from each series at your command.

Where it gives its sources I have no problem with Memory Alpha. But when not drawing from canon the text is just as much fan speculation as these conversations on the TrekBBS and the equivalent of citing Wikipedia in a bibliography. I say again – go to the original souce!

I'm not sure it suggests that so much as what was already suggested in the show - that her heart wasn't in it, so it's like she wanted to give them a chance. Even here, though they don't discuss it, there should have been the option to abandon ship. She doesn't wish to kill. Maybe you can't abandon ship at warp, however. But I would think a life pod would just drop out of warp.

She's not very clever, though. Simply lying about which person she was there to kill would be quite effective. Is she playing a game with these boys? Maybe it’s a weird cultural peculiarity of having to give anyone you intend to kill multiple means of escape, if they but prove themselves worthy. Guess the transporter operator, Watkins, and D'Omato didn't measure up. Sulu did, though, that inscrutable fellow. Kirk shouldn't have. Captain, don't let her touch it, it is instant death. Then he lets her touch him. Give me strength.

So if her heart wasn’t in it then there wasn’t a “real” emergency, right?

We don’t see what she did, or when she did it. The fact she knew about it despite his lies might suggest she already sabotaged the system. But maybe she asks so she could read his mind, so she would have to do it after. He vanishing after the kill, however, didn't mean to went home, but maybe straight inside the M/AM-IC where she stuck open the AM PODs and fused the EOB so they couldn't save themselves as normal. She's just a hologram so she can go anywhere. It wouldn't suggest she went up into the nacelles unless you assume that's where the M/AM-I is located. I do not. Or that only one engine was effected, and the other was just keeping pace (another assumption to make yet other assumptions work).

I think you just paraphrased my own post there.

True, you never want to have one character explain to another character something they already should know just so you can explain it to the audience, but there are ways to explain it or ways to mention it or allude to it without doing that. They don't explain the transporter to crewmen, but to guests, for example. I would expect some of those if they had those subspace highways in mind, or a discussion between Kirk and Spock about which subspace highway they might use or how much time they might save. Instead, it's all about warp speed.

They explain the transporter system one time, in one episode, to ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
The function of other ship systems are barely mentioned, which gives TOS its lived in, “real world” feel.

 

[JRTStarlight]

In every emergency, really?

No, not in every emergency, but if you have that kind of time (to arm the explosives manually) it's less of an urgent emergency. And I have always assumed there is a manual way to jettison the warp nacelles or the saucer section. It's the requirement the button be on the bridge I disagree with. It would more likely be in engineering. Perhaps similar to the actual button to fire the phasers is apparently not on the bridge, but in weapon's control, and any button pressed on the bridge just sends the order down to those guys manning the weapons. (That is a silly idea, IMO, but it's more like a submarine, and in BoT, that is what they were shooting for).

Well, Scotty says its dangerous in The Apple and Data says it’s inadvisable to do at warp speed in Encounter At Farpoint but that’s it. Hardly “everybody”.

How many times have they discussed it in TOS and TNG? More than 2? But sure, it's probably not everybody. Just most every time I can remember they discussed it.

That's not how facts work. It existed for at least a short time during the events of TWS, therefore it existed. It is a fact.

It is a fact it was there, then, yes. It is not a fact it is there later (unless you can pinpoint some TOS dialogue that says it is). Did they do that in The Savage Curtain? Of course it is apparent, if one has the time, it doesn't take much effort to reroute this or that and make a switch anywhere on the ship do something. But it would not be a fact, as it were, that this button with that function is standard equipment and is always on the bridge ready to be pushed. Far more likely they'd order engineering to do it via the com system.

Ha. Some guy was telling me because McCoy said Vulcans cannot lie that is was canon fact Vulcans couldn't lie. It's just canon fact McCoy said that. There are times when the writers are trying to introduce canon fact via what a character says or thinks, but technically it is only canon fact they said that, or thought that, and not that it is necessarily true. And in that case, they only wanted to remind the audience of the widely believed myth since Spock was lying all over the place in that one.

Yeah, that must be why the Enterprise-D never kept her antimatter pods on Deck 42, right on the exposed lower hull of the ship. Oh, wait:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c3/9d/21/c39d21ad417cc2e016abb5c18e829b5d.jpg
You will also notice that the E-D warp core extends very nearly to the edge of the hull. Hardly a lot of “wasted space” for the “long path” needed for core ejection.

Guess so. All I can say is the main body, closer in, is probably still better protected than the extended nacelles, farther out. And canon fact, when damaged, they often tend to leak drive plasma and not AM (but that is clearly more for TNG designs, and we disagree on the TOS design, the Reliant in Kirk's time notwithstanding since new systems may have been recently adopted).

I ask because you are quite correctly proposing that the engineering tech in the 23rd century would be less advanced than in the 24th century. My comment was to suggest that, consequently; things like antimatter pods are far less likely to be buried inside the ship, instead being in a position to be ejected in the case of a containment failure.

Ah. Probably. But how far has magnetic bottle tech or AM POD tech developed in those 100 years? Maybe not at all. Tight, small, compact, super conducting magnets, tiny power consumption requirements, maybe you can hit them with a nuke and they'd still survive, so there is little to improve, so who cares where they are put? Too much speculation. I'm not sure your offered diagram is canon, but I'm not an expert on what the IP owners say is or isn't canon.

I mean that warp drive plasma was never mentioned until TNG. It may have been part of the TMP warp systems (which was a of a a “totally new design”) but we have no way of knowing if it formed a part of TOS engineering systems or not.

Only that generally in Kirk's time, this stuff was being done and 100 years before TNG. But sure, that doesn't prove much.

Equipment needs to go where it needs to go. You’re assuming the presence of warp plasma conduits through the pylons from a central reactor in TOS where there is little suggestion of either of these.

Yes, I am assuming that. But I think there are reasons for this as suggested by some stuff just as your favored design has things that lend weight to it in your opinion, but neither of us, I don’t think, can claim absolute proof on the matter.

Also, a shieldless starship is able to be carved up by a phaser beam with little effort (see TWOK if you need an example) and that’s probably one of the reasons why the Bridge is located on top of the saucer; easy to swap out, no less vulnerable if power systems go down. Burying a volatile system deep within the secondary hull offers little extra protection if the shields go down and furthermore severely limits ejection options.

We don't know how deeply those phasers cut into the ship. Sure, if all the shields fail, then you're done, regardless of where you keep your stash (of AM). But quite frankly, I would think if the shields were down, they'd outright destroy the ship anyway. However, Savik energized the defense grid (yellow alert, automatic shoring up of inner areas with force fields and extra shields). So that's why the Enterprise wasn't just destroyed like Kirk blew up a Klingon ship without shields with one phaser blast (Day of the Dove). Shield tech is more amazing than weapons tech, I have always said so. But I still feel the nacelles are less protected than deep in the interior, or shields will fail over the nacelles first before more inner shielding fails.

Interesting about the Mutara Nebula battle. A single photon torpedo would could easily and utterly destroy a ship without shields. The shields weren't working in the nebula, so neither ship had them. And yet multiple torpedoes do relatively little damage. Of course there is a reason (IMO). They couldn't use maximum yield on their torpedoes since the kickback would have destroyed them, too, since they didn't have shields either. So Kirk has to use minimal yield torpedoes so he didn't kill himself, and at those low yields, it would take several direct hits to destroy a ship. Or is this a common belief and not news to you?

No, just that your setup was overly long and complicated for a situation that really has a very simple solution – a solution described in the very episode you purport to draw from.

One does not need to describe it to the audience, so its length is not a real problem. And we both draw from TWS and other sources, but are coming to different conclusions. I would say I don't think either of us are "wrong" since what can be gleaned as canon fact is inconclusive along these lines. We just each still favor our own interpretations, probably for the same reasons we held them in the first place. If damaged nacelles leaking AM doesn't bother you enough to think it's a bad idea, fine. I'm not about to say it's impossible to have multiple dilithium assemblies and M/AM integrators around the ship. Only that I haven't seen enough evidence for it, or need for it, to assume it.

I really don’t understand why you continue to quote Memory Alpha as a source - it is just someone else’s speculation, nothing more. Go to the original episode and draw your own conclusions, it is far less messy.

Why? To annoy you, and to make things generally irritating. Ha. Actually, I wouldn't quote it if I didn't agree with it, or knew of any contradictory bit of dialogue or definitive canon fact that contradicted it. And I'm not just blindly repeating memory alpha crap, but have often checked the transcripts or even yanked up the episode to watch sections of it, or done all three. Then I form my opinion. That is why I'm your King. Sorry, too much Monty Python stuck in my head right now. Just a joke, I sure don't think I'm a king of anything.

No, the danger is that if Scotty ruptures the magnetic containment field while attempting to stem the flow of antimatter into the reactor, the whole antimatter supply could blow (since antimatter reacts violently upon contact with any normal matter). Again, this was explained in the episode itself.

Yes, that was said and that is true. But more was said, too. The EOB kicks in when the magnetic containment field fails. They are heading for a structural failure due to stress - not a further automatic magnetic containment failure, unless that is what will happen when structural failure occurs (otherwise the struts might just rip off and they'd drop out of warp without warp engines).

The AM flow cannot be shut off as normal since the M/AM-I, which contains the EOB, was fused. M/AM-I is key since we see that is what is wrong now - AM is flowing and they can't stop it. They could use the EOB and jettison the core (or shunt the AM to the nacelles and jettison those, in this case), but that's part of what's fused, so that's not a option anymore.

Another option they devise is set new charges and rig a button to blast the whole area away (though I'm not sure they say this is a guaranteed save, but it would kill Scotty and cripple the ship, so best to avoid that option except as a last resort). Another option is to interrupt the AM flow, which would close or reset the AM Pods (I assume) since they didn't stop but simply dropped to normal speeds.

Heck, Scotty has an engineering console on the Bridge. Are we expected to believe that Engineering is right below it?

That's only there since the captain needs to see Scotty regularly to make sure he's not drinking on the job. Otherwise he'd always be in engineering, or playing with his transporter simulations working on theoretical transwarp beaming. I mean, yeah, not every control panel is immediately adjacent to what it controls. BTW, do you think the transporter control panel is mobile and wireless, or they just have lots of Transporter rooms since the control console doesn't seem to be in a fixed position?

Where it gives its sources I have no problem with Memory Alpha. But when not drawing from canon the text is just as much fan speculation as these conversations on the TrekBBS and the equivalent of citing Wikipedia in a bibliography. I say again – go to the original source!

In my one experience with submitting an edit to Memory Alpha, they absolutely didn't want to accept fan speculation or explanations. They need quoted dialogue, or quotes from the writers or such, but a fan? They have a low tolerance for that, AFAIK. Anyway, I can usually confirm via other sources what I use from Memory Alpha before I use it.

So if her heart wasn’t in it then there wasn’t a “real” emergency, right?

No, she was still compelled to try to kill intruders/invaders by her directives, but not compelled to try her best (so speculated Kirk). He could have been wrong. Just because he said it doesn't make it true. Another explanation for why she wasn't more effective at killing could yet be devised.

 

[JRTStarlight]

I've never had a toilet float stuck like that before like I did today. It wouldn't raise, so the water didn't shut off, and instead of draining into the open spout and going into the toilet, I guess the water was rising so fast it began to spill over the top of the tank.

Thank goodness I hadn't left the room and could quickly shut it off. I shudder to think what would happen if water were running onto the upstairs floor that fast for any appreciable length of time.

I cleared away considerable mineral deposits, but it's still iffy. It might almost be better to replace the float assembly with a new, clean one.

This reminds of when the matter-antimatter integrator was stuck in the open position, and somebody had stupidly fused the emergency overload bypass system. Unlike Scotty, luckily I was able to interrupt the flow with my bare hands. And since I was already left handed, it didn't even require inverse phasing.

 

[Mytran]

No, not in every emergency, but if you have that kind of time (to arm the explosives manually) it's less of an urgent emergency. And I have always assumed there is a manual way to jettison the warp nacelles or the saucer section. It's the requirement the button be on the bridge I disagree with. It would more likely be in engineering. Perhaps similar to the actual button to fire the phasers is apparently not on the bridge, but in weapon's control, and any button pressed on the bridge just sends the order down to those guys manning the weapons. (That is a silly idea, IMO, but it's more like a submarine, and in BoT, that is what they were shooting for).

More likely the button on the Bridge featured in TWS was just a relay activation switch; something that triggered something else in Engineering that triggered the now primed separator explosive charges. Or it could have been a radio control box with a big red button on it, just out of shot. The point is that Spock wanted to give as much time for Scotty to fix the problem before firing him off into space, and having the control device there on the Bridge is the best way to facilitate that.
In any case, there’s always time to do something about any emergency situation we see in TOS – otherwise it would be a short show! In-universe this might be indicative of really good safety systems at work, but regardless, it means we really don’t know how the crew would cope with an emergency that gives them mere seconds to act.

How many times have they discussed it in TOS and TNG? More than 2? But sure, it's probably not everybody. Just most every time I can remember they discussed it.

In case you’re interested, Riker mentioned it as an option in Heart Of Glory as did Worf and the Klingons, the latter implying that were actual benefits in relieving the Enterprise of its bulky saucer. Picard alerted everyone to stand by for saucer separation when the terroists invaded his ship in The High Ground. Ro voiced it as her preferred option in Disaster. And the saucer separation itself was performed in Arsenal Of Freedom, Best Of Both Worlds and ST7:Generations.
None of those instances had characters indicated that the procedure was dangerous – in fact, Picard glibbed to Riker in EOF that the splitting and rejoining of the vessel was a routine manoeuvre!
For completeness I should add that the high warp speed separation trick was suggested by Picard in Brothers and Wesley alerted him that it was risky; which it is. But under normal STL circumstances in the 24th century, it is not a dangerous function.

It is a fact it was there, then, yes. It is not a fact it is there later (unless you can pinpoint some TOS dialogue that says it is). Did they do that in The Savage Curtain? Of course it is apparent, if one has the time, it doesn't take much effort to reroute this or that and make a switch anywhere on the ship do something. But it would not be a fact, as it were, that this button with that function is standard equipment and is always on the bridge ready to be pushed. Far more likely they'd order engineering to do it via the com system.

So unless a room or piece of equipment is constantly mentioned each episode you assume it has been removed?
Fortunately, that’s not what I said. The separation procedure existed (and was nearly implemented) in TWS, an episode that came before SC. In SC the ship was not flying hell-for-leather through space, thus making the nacelle jettison option that much easier. So, when Kirk directly commanded Scotty to "jettison the nacelles if possible" we know that at least one previously discussed option was being referenced.

Ha. Some guy was telling me because McCoy said Vulcans cannot lie that is was canon fact Vulcans couldn't lie. It's just canon fact McCoy said that. There are times when the writers are trying to introduce canon fact via what a character says or thinks, but technically it is only canon fact they said that, or thought that, and not that it is necessarily true. And in that case, they only wanted to remind the audience of the widely believed myth since Spock was lying all over the place in that one.

Then “some guy” was mistaken – Spock said that (sort of) to the Romulan Commander in The Enterprise Incident:

COMMANDER: He is a Vulcan. Our forebears had the same roots and origins. Something you wouldn't understand, Captain. We can appreciate the Vulcans, our distant brothers. I have heard of Vulcan integrity and personal honour. There's a well-known saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans are incapable of lying?
SPOCK: It is no myth.

It’s no myth - it’s simply not true at all!

Guess so. All I can say is the main body, closer in, is probably still better protected than the extended nacelles, farther out. And canon fact, when damaged, they often tend to leak drive plasma and not AM (but that is clearly more for TNG designs, and we disagree on the TOS design, the Reliant in Kirk's time notwithstanding since new systems may have been recently adopted).

I don’t disagree that the antimatter supplies could be better protected than perched out on the nacelles with the reactors. However, if the technology in TOS simply doesn’t allow for a single, centralised reactor and miles of conduits that safely and reliably contain the warp reactant output, you are limited in your location choices. Hence (IMO) the reactors deliver their output directly into the warp coils, safely disposing of that otherwise horribly dangerous stuff! Who on earth would want it in tubes, snaking through the interior of the ship?

I'm not sure your offered diagram is canon, but I'm not an expert on what the IP owners say is or isn't canon.

Fair enough – here is the actual MSD from the wall in Main Engineering:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_class_decks
Look closely and you can even see the ship’s duck, race car and Roddenberry’s WW2 bomber!

Only that generally in Kirk's time, this stuff was being done and 100 years before TNG. But sure, that doesn't prove much.

You assume it was being done. We know that matter and antimatter are mixed together and the resulting energy is used to propel the ship faster than light. We have no idea how or even if warp plasma plays a part in this.

Yes, I am assuming that. But I think there are reasons for this as suggested by some stuff just as your favoured design has things that lend weight to it in your opinion, but neither of us, I don’t think, can claim absolute proof on the matter.

Yes, but the reasons you are citing are from the TNG engine model, not TOS.

We don't know how deeply those phasers cut into the ship. Sure, if all the shields fail, then you're done, regardless of where you keep your stash (of AM). But quite frankly, I would think if the shields were down, they'd outright destroy the ship anyway. However, Savik energized the defense grid (yellow alert, automatic shoring up of inner areas with force fields and extra shields). So that's why the Enterprise wasn't just destroyed like Kirk blew up a Klingon ship without shields with one phaser blast (Day of the Dove). Shield tech is more amazing than weapons tech, I have always said so. But I still feel the nacelles are less protected than deep in the interior, or shields will fail over the nacelles first before more inner shielding fails.

Interesting about the Mutara Nebula battle. A single photon torpedo would could easily and utterly destroy a ship without shields. The shields weren't working in the nebula, so neither ship had them. And yet multiple torpedoes do relatively little damage. Of course there is a reason (IMO). They couldn't use maximum yield on their torpedoes since the kickback would have destroyed them, too, since they didn't have shields either. So Kirk has to use minimal yield torpedoes so he didn't kill himself, and at those low yields, it would take several direct hits to destroy a ship. Or is this a common belief and not news to you?

An interesting treatise on TMP era weaponry, if a little off topic.

One does not need to describe it to the audience, so its length is not a real problem. And we both draw from TWS and other sources, but are coming to different conclusions. I would say I don't think either of us are "wrong" since what can be gleaned as canon fact is inconclusive along these lines. We just each still favor our own interpretations, probably for the same reasons we held them in the first place. If damaged nacelles leaking AM doesn't bother you enough to think it's a bad idea, fine. I'm not about to say it's impossible to have multiple dilithium assemblies and M/AM integrators around the ship. Only that I haven't seen enough evidence for it, or need for it, to assume it.

The only damaged nacelles leaking anything are those that are built from the new engine design pioneering in TMP, therefore unrelated to the power systems in TOS.

At the end of the day though, we are starting from a very limited dataset to work from so it’s hardly surprising that we reach different conclusions! I would rather just let the data tell its own tale, instead of forcing a presupposition onto the events. I honestly have no problem with the use of technology changing over time – must there only ever be just one way to do anything?

Why? To annoy you, and to make things generally irritating. Ha. Actually, I wouldn't quote it if I didn't agree with it, or knew of any contradictory bit of dialogue or definitive canon fact that contradicted it. And I'm not just blindly repeating memory alpha crap, but have often checked the transcripts or even yanked up the episode to watch sections of it, or done all three. Then I form my opinion. That is why I'm your King. Sorry, too much Monty Python stuck in my head right now. Just a joke, I sure don't think I'm a king of anything.

In that case, touché good sir!

Yes, that was said and that is true. But more was said, too. The EOB kicks in when the magnetic containment field fails. They are heading for a structural failure due to stress - not a further automatic magnetic containment failure, unless that is what will happen when structural failure occurs (otherwise the struts might just rip off and they'd drop out of warp without warp engines).


The AM flow cannot be shut off as normal since the M/AM-I, which contains the EOB, was fused. M/AM-I is key since we see that is what is wrong now - AM is flowing and they can't stop it. They could use the EOB and jettison the core (or shunt the AM to the nacelles and jettison those, in this case), but that's part of what's fused, so that's not a option anymore.

In other words:

• The imminent structural failure of the ship is the ticking clock.
• The plan is to stem the flow of antimatter without rupturing the containment field.
• If the field is ruptured, something called a “pod” can be ejected to remove the antimatter before it leaks, but it is such a drastic step that no-one wants to do it unless there’s absolutely no other choice.

These events are just what we see in the episode. Nice summary, but what point are you making?

Another option they devise is set new charges and rig a button to blast the whole area away (though I'm not sure they say this is a guaranteed save, but it would kill Scotty and cripple the ship, so best to avoid that option except as a last resort). Another option is to interrupt the AM flow, which would close or reset the AM Pods (I assume) since they didn't stop but simply dropped to normal speeds.

And if the antimatter tanks and main reactor are as internal as you have explained upthread, exactly what part of the ship are they able to blow away with any effectiveness? The secondary hull is basically a tube, so the safest location would be along the centreline. The only way that you would be able to blast away the affected area would be to sever the entire secondary hull from the saucer – a little more drastic than simply jettisoning a pod.

BTW, do you think the transporter control panel is mobile and wireless, or they just have lots of Transporter rooms since the control console doesn't seem to be in a fixed position?

Many control panels and units seem to operate wirelessly in TOS. However, I also believe that there were several different transporter rooms throughout the ship, to explain the various structural differences we saw done to the set over the years. Therefore, at least 2 Engine Rooms as well.

In my one experience with submitting an edit to Memory Alpha, they absolutely didn't want to accept fan speculation or explanations. They need quoted dialogue, or quotes from the writers or such, but a fan? They have a low tolerance for that, AFAIK. Anyway, I can usually confirm via other sources what I use from Memory Alpha before I use it.

Even if I shared your optimistic appraisal of Memory Alpha, an article that doesn’t cite its sources should not be taken at face value, IMO.