Power systems in TOS

[JRTStarlight]

The point is that Spock wanted to give as much time for Scotty to fix the problem before firing him off into space, and having the control device there on the Bridge is the best way to facilitate that.

I agree, in TWS they repurposed an existing switch on the bridge to do that.

we really don’t know how the crew would cope with an emergency that gives them mere seconds to act.

Mostly we see automated systems snap on first and so they survive and then react. I'm cool with that.

So unless a room or piece of equipment is constantly mentioned each episode you assume it has been removed?

Not if it is first presented as standard equipment for normal operations, no. But if it's introduced for an emergency, while it's possible it may stick around, it is not a fact it has, unless mentioned again to demonstrate as much. That switch probably went back to being used for its normal function.

The separation procedure existed (and was nearly implemented) in TWS, an episode that came before SC. In SC the ship was not flying hell-for-leather through space, thus making the nacelle jettison option that much easier. So, when Kirk directly commanded Scotty to "jettison the nacelles if possible" we know that at least one previously discussed option was being referenced.

In TWS, we know Scotty rigged new charges or did something different, and since they wanted to, they rigged a bridge button to set off the charges. In TSC, we have no reason to believe the normal method wouldn't be employed (i.e. the bridge tells engineering to do it, and they do it). Nowhere in The Savage Curtain, IIRC, did Kirk tell Scotty, (who was on the bridge) to push a particular bridge button on the bridge to get it done. All we know is there was, and is, a normal means to do it. But after sabotage, normal means to do it may not suffice, and so special mention of new explosives and a button function rerouted for that purpose is made. In no way does this make it a fact the ship, in non sabotaged form, has as a normal function the actual button to separate the nacelles is on the bridge. One can assume that, but one can't prove it, so it cannot be accepted as a canon fact. I would think after repairs, it would revert to the normal form, whatever that was, unless they saw a very good reason to keep the improvisation. Considering it seems to take manual arming of the explosives, anyway, and you probably wouldn't want a button accidentally pushed on the bridge to just do that, I see little reason to have such an emergency function as a standard button on the bridge. But like most Trek, they'll just "reroute" some function to a bridge button if that's what it takes and telling engineering to handle it isn't an option.

It’s no myth - it’s simply not true at all!

The greatest trick the Vulcans ever played on the galaxy was convining everyone Vulcans cannot lie, or never bluff. Kind of unnerving when a Vulcan goes all in, isn't it?

I don’t disagree that the antimatter supplies could be better protected than perched out on the nacelles with the reactors. However, if the technology in TOS simply doesn’t allow for a single, centralized reactor and miles of conduits that safely and reliably contain the warp reactant output, you are limited in your location choices. Hence (IMO) the reactors deliver their output directly into the warp coils, safely disposing of that otherwise horribly dangerous stuff! Who on earth would want it in tubes, snaking through the interior of the ship?

What is snaking through tubes isn't AM but high energy normal matter plasma. TOS didn't use plasma conduits? They used them in ST: Enterprise. Cochrane uses some in First Contact. This suggests they have always used them, but their lack of mention in TOS episodes on Memory Alpha is also a good sign they weren't explicitly mentioned in TOS. This doesn't prove they weren't used - only they weren't mentioned, and even that is a slight assumption, but a good one, I think. But that does mean it is also not a canon fact they were used in TOS. True, my system would require the use of plasma conduits, or at least energy transmission from one place to another, however TOS did it, for it seems clear they are doing it all over, whether it is simple electricity or something else. Making multiple dilithium M/AM reactors so you have enough and so they are only used at point of consumption seems like a lot. I know you prefer one for each nacelle, but how do you envision the energy from the main one (and only one we see) in engineering is sent around the ship if not by plasma conduits?

Fair enough – here is the actual MSD from the wall in Main Engineering:
https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/4/40/Galaxy_class_MSD.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110624094633&path-prefix=en
Look closely and you can even see the ship’s duck, race car and Roddenberry’s WW2 bomber!

And none of it is labeled. So those things down there aren't AM PODS, but the bowling ball rack for their bowling alley. Hey, is that a cat (3 or 4 levels under the bridge)?

You assume it was being done. We know that matter and antimatter are mixed together and the resulting energy is used to propel the ship faster than light. We have no idea how or even if warp plasma plays a part in this.

Yes, it is an assumption. And with reverse engineering, of a sort, it seems a good one.

Yes, but the reasons you are citing are from the TNG engine model, not TOS.

Some of that is true, but not only TNG. ENT, TOS, and others, I'd imagine.

An interesting treatise on TMP era weaponry, if a little off topic.

Stellar thread drift?

At the end of the day though, we are starting from a very limited dataset to work from so it’s hardly surprising that we reach different conclusions! I would rather just let the data tell its own tale, instead of forcing a presupposition onto the events. I honestly have no problem with the use of technology changing over time – must there only ever be just one way to do anything?

Plenty of ways to do things, I'm sure. I simply rely more on some notions I hold. The scientific laws in this solar system are the same as the scientific laws in other stellar systems, and Even in this corner of the galaxy, Captain, two plus two equals four. That is, what works in TNG and is ued there is a direct result and most often based upon what was working and what came before. So I'd strongly assume plasma conduits in TOS, for example. It's not proof since you're right and there are other ways to do things, and I don't like the argument they used it in ENT and TNG, so therefore they must have used it in TOS, since ENT was made after TNG. But it would still be a good argument for what is canon and what the IP owners want now.

In that case, touché good sir!

FYI, this is why Monty Python was stuck in my head at that moment.

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Mind your own business!

These events are just what we see in the episode. Nice summary, but what point are you making?

I don't recall. Perhaps that structural failure was different than magnetic containment failure and things could be deduced from that.

And if the antimatter tanks and main reactor are as internal as you have explained upthread, exactly what part of the ship are they able to blow away with any effectiveness? The secondary hull is basically a tube, so the safest location would be along the centerline. The only way that you would be able to blast away the affected area would be to sever the entire secondary hull from the saucer – a little more drastic than simply jettisoning a pod.

Interior to the main ship is still better than the nacelles, even if it's near the hull, but exactly how far in, I'm not sure. I just got the impression Scotty, and a decent sized chunk of the lower main hull would be blasted free since the regular method of dumping the nacelle wasn't an option anymore, and they hadn't foreseen the usefulness of a more direct path in directly dumping the core yet in their design. So it was the area containing the warp core itself (not called that in TOS) and with no normal path to dump it, they were going blast a hell of a hole in the hull, but it would save the ship and most everyone on board.

What do YOU think was going to be blasted away? Just one nacelle? And the other would just play nice? Both nacelles? Where do you think Scotty was again? A strut?

 

[Mytran]

In TWS, we know Scotty rigged new charges or did something different, and since they wanted to, they rigged a bridge button to set off the charges. In TSC, we have no reason to believe the normal method wouldn't be employed (i.e. the bridge tells engineering to do it, and they do it). Nowhere in The Savage Curtain, IIRC, did Kirk tell Scotty, (who was on the bridge) to push a particular bridge button on the bridge to get it done. All we know is there was, and is, a normal means to do it. But after sabotage, normal means to do it may not suffice, and so special mention of new explosives and a button function rerouted for that purpose is made. In no way does this make it a fact the ship, in non sabotaged form, has as a normal function the actual button to separate the nacelles is on the bridge. One can assume that, but one can't prove it, so it cannot be accepted as a canon fact. I would think after repairs, it would revert to the normal form, whatever that was, unless they saw a very good reason to keep the improvisation. Considering it seems to take manual arming of the explosives, anyway, and you probably wouldn't want a button accidentally pushed on the bridge to just do that, I see little reason to have such an emergency function as a standard button on the bridge. But like most Trek, they'll just "reroute" some function to a bridge button if that's what it takes and telling engineering to handle it isn't an option.

So IOW, you agree that it is a fact that a standard procedure exists to jettison the nacelles?

What is snaking through tubes isn't AM but high energy normal matter plasma.

It amuses me that as Star Trek fans we have become so blaise about this amazing tech that we can call something so intense that it can power an engine to break the speed of light as “normal plasma”
But in any case, I never said that it was antimatter snaking through the tubes – I called it the output of the matter-antimatter reaction.You know what you actually get when you allow matter and antimatter to collide? The particles are annihilated into a bunch of exotic particles, gamma-rays, and heat.
Assuming you have the technology to even contain these superheated death rays, why would you take the risk of piping them through the ship’s living quarters. Why not just dispose of them straight away into the target destination - the warp coils? Plant the reactor output nozzle at the front of each nacelle and you’re good to go!

TOS didn't use plasma conduits? They used them in ST: Enterprise. Cochrane uses some in First Contact. This suggests they have always used them, but their lack of mention in TOS episodes on Memory Alpha is also a good sign they weren't explicitly mentioned in TOS. This doesn't prove they weren't used - only they weren't mentioned, and even that is a slight assumption, but a good one, I think. But that does mean it is also not a canon fact they were used in TOS. True, my system would require the use of plasma conduits, or at least energy transmission from one place to another, however TOS did it, for it seems clear they are doing it all over, whether it is simple electricity or something else. Making multiple dilithium M/AM reactors so you have enough and so they are only used at point of consumption seems like a lot. I know you prefer one for each nacelle, but how do you envision the energy from the main one (and only one we see) in engineering is sent around the ship if not by plasma conduits?

Plasma is not a bad medium for carrying the energetic charge (electricity or otherwise) around the ship so I have no problem with using small scale plasma conduits (mentioned in ENT) to transfer a small amount of the reactors’ output down to the convertor assembly in Main Engineering, where it can be turned into something compatible with ship systems. But they are in no way strong enough to ferry the full force of a M/AM reaction safely – that was the big innovation in the TMP engine redesign.

And none of it is labeled. So those things down there aren't AM PODS, but the bowling ball rack for their bowling alley.

Well maybe, but the warp core extends down to Deck 41 (of 42) and we know from watching it in action that the antimatter comes from the bottom somewhere. So if those are bowling balls, they are stacked right next to the antimatter storage tanks. Here is a closeup of that area:
http://s757.photobucket.com/user/Mytran77/media/Galaxy_class_MSD closeup_zpskrb9ybr6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

...It's not proof since you're right and there are other ways to do things, and I don't like the argument they used it in ENT and TNG, so therefore they must have used it in TOS, since ENT was made after TNG. But it would still be a good argument for what is canon and what the IP owners want now.

As I showed a few paragraphs ago, there is more than one way to view the tech in ENT when looking at its place in the whole of Trek history

Stellar thread drift?

Okay, I’ll give you that one

I don't recall. Perhaps that structural failure was different than magnetic containment failure and things could be deduced from that.

Yes, they are different:

• Structural failure is what will destroy the ship if action is not taken
• Magnetic field failure is what might happen if Scotty isn’t extremely careful in his work.

I know you’re doing a rewatch of TOS, but maybe you should skip ahead to this episode? It would answer a lot of your questions!

Interior to the main ship is still better than the nacelles, even if it's near the hull, but exactly how far in, I'm not sure. I just got the impression Scotty, and a decent sized chunk of the lower main hull would be blasted free since the regular method of dumping the nacelle wasn't an option anymore, and they hadn't foreseen the usefulness of a more direct path in directly dumping the core yet in their design. So it was the area containing the warp core itself (not called that in TOS) and with no normal path to dump it, they were going blast a hell of a hole in the hull, but it would save the ship and most everyone on board.

Except for all those poor people who happened to be in the path of the ejecting pods. Anything being jettisoned from the centre of the secondary hull is going to tear a path that will sever that section of the ship or at the very least cripple it. The shuttlebay and pylons would likely fracture and fall away (think Titanic) and goodness knows what damage would be done to the sensor dish and adjacent systems.
There is a real advantage in NOT putting ejectable equipment in the centre of a vessel. If you’re going to stick to an early version of the TNG engine design for the TOS-E, I strongly advise you put the reactor and antimatter pods on the bottom of the hull. There’s even coloured panels you could explain away as removable plates!
http://orig03.deviantart.net/db72/f/2011/279/7/9/enterprise_tos_2_by_godstaff-d4bzcui.jpg

What do YOU think was going to be blasted away? Just one nacelle? And the other would just play nice? Both nacelles? Where do you think Scotty was again? A strut?

As I mentioned upthread – yes, one nacelle (AKA warp pod) was going to be blasted away. The other nacelle, no longer tied to the malfunctioning one, would reduce its power levels back to a safe level and the ship would come to a halt.

 

[JRTStarlight]

So IOW, you agree that it is a fact that a standard procedure exists to jettison the nacelles?

Yeah. But I think in TWS, the standard means was blocked off, so Scotty had to set new charges (and Spock wanted those set off via bridge button so that was rerouted there) and what would be ejected was a large chunk of engineering (where the integrator was, i.e. warp core).

It amuses me that as Star Trek fans we have become so blasé about this amazing tech that we can call something so intense that it can power an engine to break the speed of light as “normal plasma”

Perhaps I should clarify then. By "normal" I don't mean everyday plasma it's so common, but that it is comprised of "normal" matter particles and not antimatter particles. So, electrons and neutrons and protons, in a high-energy plasma state, and not positrons and antineutrons and antiprotons, which could also be a high energy plasma state (but far more dangerous since contact with normal matter, like a plasma conduit is made from, or normal matter, would be very bad indeed). True, the magnetic containment of the plasma conduits should keep either away from the walls, but in the conduits, if containment fails for normal plasma, it burns a bit (a plasma fire). If it fails for antimatter plasma, it blows up. So I imagine the M/AM reaction makes energetic photons, and those photons kick normal matter into a high energy plasma state, and that stuff is carried through the ship via plasma conduits and used via EPS power taps.

If it is two identical/respective pairs, one matter the other antimatter, I think you just get photons (gamma rays, more likely). I'm not sure a positron would annihilate on a neutron just because one is antimatter and the other matter. You have to find your corresponding anti particle. But there are plenty so it's not a hard thing to do. You might, however, find the anti particle in a mess or them, and blow those apart and get more than just photons. For example, an antineutron hitting an iron atom's nucleus would blow one up on neutron and maybe scatter the rest and produce some exotic particles, too, with subsequent secondary collisions and maybe even a missing mass defect that would produce some energy, too. Or maybe the heavier particles and their respective counter particles produce photons and other exotic particles and subatomic stuff to conserve momentum, angular and linear, and spin, and other fancy things, and quarks and more are the product of those. Obviously, I don't actually work with antimatter on a daily basis, and I'm sure it shows here. But I am pretty sure they just use deuterium (proton and neutron) and antideuterium (antiproton and antineutron) so they mostly get nothing but photons (and residue comes from fuel impurities, like extra this or that).

But in any case, I never said that it was antimatter snaking through the tubes – I called it the output of the matter-antimatter reaction. You know what you actually get when you allow matter and antimatter to collide? The particles are annihilated into a bunch of exotic particles, gamma-rays, and heat.

Assuming you have the technology to even contain these superheated death rays, why would you take the risk of piping them through the ship’s living quarters. Why not just dispose of them straight away into the target destination - the warp coils? Plant the reactor output nozzle at the front of each nacelle and you’re good to go!

It might be relatively safe and more efficient, just like electricity is now rather than piping steam to my house so my personal generator can turn it into electricity here, and it might even be electricity and not plasma for all we know. Otherwise, you can only have "point of use" reactors, so there's that one main reactor in engineering that needs to be explained (with TOS dialogue to support such explanations) if you got one in each nacelle, too. Otherwise, another explanation can be equally plausible.

that was the big innovation in the TMP engine redesign.

What precisely did they say about the new engine that set it apart from the old ones (apart from newer, bigger, stronger, faster)? Also, radiation suits would probably not be standard equipment AFTER they got it running properly, IMO. They were just still working out the bugs.

Well maybe, but the warp core extends down to Deck 41 (of 42) and we know from watching it in action that the antimatter comes from the bottom somewhere. So if those are bowling balls, they are stacked right next to the antimatter storage tanks. Here is a close-up of that area:
http://s757.photobucket.com/user/Mytran77/media/Galaxy_class_MSD closeup_zpskrb9ybr6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Sorry, but Photobucket (the jerks) no longer allow third party hosting for free accounts and I couldn't see that. Indeed, I think you need to pay for one like $400 a year to share images like that. Forget THEM! Anyway, they may have bowling balls down there, too, so we can't be sure, and I only mention it to point out how too many people misunderstand Kirk or think he's bragging and take it the wrong way when he mentions they aren't in his league.

I know you’re doing a rewatch of TOS, but maybe you should skip ahead to this episode? It would answer a lot of your questions!

I have looked at it, repeatedly, and we are seeing the same things, but drawing different conclusions doubtlessly based on some preconceived ideas we have neither of us can divest the other of without proof. Or, as you say, there is more than one way to do things.

And the rewatch is bogged down since I'm not allowed to post more than twice in a row, and nobody is commenting in that thread lately, so I'm stuck, and I can't catch up with the thread's owner (original poster). It's frustrating. I wish the rule was if more than 24 hours have passed, you could post again. Who would that be hurting?

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-rewatch.283254/page-12

Except for all those poor people who happened to be in the path of the ejecting pods. Anything being jettisoned from the center of the secondary hull is going to tear a path that will sever that section of the ship or at the very least cripple it. The shuttlebay and pylons would likely fracture and fall away (think Titanic) and goodness knows what damage would be done to the sensor dish and adjacent systems.

I've already admitted the core, or even the pods, may be closer to the hull than I first thought, but maintain they would still be safer there than the nacelles. And I'm sure the potential blast area was cleared so only Scotty would be lost, though the ship may have been severely damaged. Or is some canon TOS design saying I have to blast half the ship away to do this? Remember now - he's probably using shaped charges, and those titanium bulkheads are pretty tough. None of that assumed regular charge stuff or dry wall.

As I mentioned upthread – yes, one nacelle (AKA warp pod) was going to be blasted away. The other nacelle, no longer tied to the malfunctioning one, would reduce its power levels back to a safe level and the ship would come to a halt.

Yes, built upon a notion cut out of whole cloth that there is a system in place to make one engine ramp up to keep pace with the other should it, for any reason, go wild, none of which is really mentioned in the dialogue. And while one might run a ship with one engine at lower warp, I doubt it would at all after that, at least not without days of effort, but would at best be reduced to impulse speeds. But it's not like blasting the lower hull to the degree I'm thinking would have maintained warp capability anyway - just saved the ship and the crew (and probably lost the landing party). So, too, would the landing party be lost your way if they had to blast a nacelle away.

Thankfully, either way, Scotty accomplished his task. What is not widely known is that Mr. Spock had a cockoo clock replicated and placed in Scotty's cabin afterwards - as a sort of thank you since Scott felt more was necessary. Or did I dream that?

 

[Mytran]

Yeah. But I think in TWS, the standard means was blocked off, so Scotty had to set new charges (and Spock wanted those set off via bridge button so that was rerouted there) and what would be ejected was a large chunk of engineering (where the integrator was, i.e. warp core).

Well fine, but that’s not what your originally contested point was, remember? But I am glad that we can now agree that an ejection system existing during the events of TWS (even if it was a jury-rigged one) and that an ejection system (possibly the same, possibly not) existed during the events of TSC.

Perhaps I should clarify then. By "normal" I don't mean everyday plasma it's so common, but that it is comprised of "normal" matter particles and not antimatter particles.

Well I’d never before considered the concept of “antimatter plasma”, but I guess anything’s possible, especially in Star Trek!

It might be relatively safe and more efficient, just like electricity is now rather than piping steam to my house so my personal generator can turn it into electricity here, and it might even be electricity and not plasma for all we know.

Yes but you don’t have high voltage lines running through the walls of your house either. The high capacity current is transformed at the entry point and not taken anywhere it doesn’t precisely need to go. Likewise on a starship you keep the output of the M/AM reactions as far away from the habitable portions of the ship as possible.
Aviation design, at its finest

What precisely did they say about the new engine that set it apart from the old ones (apart from newer, bigger, stronger, faster)? Also, radiation suits would probably not be standard equipment AFTER they got it running properly, IMO. They were just still working out the bugs.

What they said about the engine redesign was not as significant as the visual cues – IOW a gigantic power conduit running right through the main engine room vertically and another one horizontally.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that rad-suits were only a temprary measure though - they were still being worn as late as ST6.

Sorry, but Photobucket (the jerks) no longer allow third party hosting for free accounts and I couldn't see that. Indeed, I think you need to pay for one like $400 a year to share images like that. Forget THEM! Anyway, they may have bowling balls down there, too, so we can't be sure, and I only mention it to point out how too many people misunderstand Kirk or think he's bragging and take it the wrong way when he mentions they aren't in his league.

Yeah, the issues with Photobucket have been a pain in the backside for a month or more now. However, that link should have taken you straight to the web page itself, rather than the image. What did you actually see when you clicked it?
Meanwhile, I am experimenting with other image hosts:

I have looked at it, repeatedly, and we are seeing the same things, but drawing different conclusions doubtlessly based on some preconceived ideas we have neither of us can divest the other of without proof. Or, as you say, there is more than one way to do things.

Indeed. As long as we can recognise what the original series is offering in terms of its contribution to engineering in the Star Trek universe, I’m happy to agree to disagree on interpretation. This flexibility is one of the strengths of TOS after all.

And the rewatch is bogged down since I'm not allowed to post more than twice in a row, and nobody is commenting in that thread lately, so I'm stuck, and I can't catch up with the thread's owner (original poster). It's frustrating. I wish the rule was if more than 24 hours have passed, you could post again. Who would that be hurting?

Who knows, maybe someone will drop a comment in today?

I've already admitted the core, or even the pods, may be closer to the hull than I first thought, but maintain they would still be safer there than the nacelles. And I'm sure the potential blast area was cleared so only Scotty would be lost, though the ship may have been severely damaged. Or is some canon TOS design saying I have to blast half the ship away to do this? Remember now - he's probably using shaped charges, and those titanium bulkheads are pretty tough. None of that assumed regular charge stuff or dry wall.

Whether the antimatter tanks are on the bottom of the secondary hull (a mostly habitable area) or inside the nacelles (a heavily shielded engineering area) they are always going to be vulnerable to attack if the main shields go down. What's important is that the rest of the time they are able to perform their function as efficiently as possible. It's all a balance, and compromise of some sort is inevitable.

Yes, built upon a notion cut out of whole cloth that there is a system in place to make one engine ramp up to keep pace with the other should it, for any reason, go wild, none of which is really mentioned in the dialogue.

The notion is derived from the information given during TWS and all the other instances of engineering technology in TOS. The need to balance a pair of warp engines precisely is hardly an outlandish one and in fact borne out by the presence of the the ""symmetrical warp field governor" on the Enterprise NX-01.

And while one might run a ship with one engine at lower warp, I doubt it would at all after that, at least not without days of effort, but would at best be reduced to impulse speeds. But it's not like blasting the lower hull to the degree I'm thinking would have maintained warp capability anyway - just saved the ship and the crew (and probably lost the landing party). So, too, would the landing party be lost your way if they had to blast a nacelle away.

Why would a one-nacelle ship be unable to maintain a warp field exactly? At reduced speed and efficiency I could believe, but a warp engine is still a warp engine

Thankfully, either way, Scotty accomplished his task. What is not widely known is that Mr. Spock had a cockoo clock replicated and placed in Scotty's cabin afterwards - as a sort of thank you since Scott felt more was necessary. Or did I dream that?

Maybe. But what is more widely known is that Mr Spock would have had to invent a replicator in order to do that: Replicators belong in the TNG era!

 

[JRTStarlight]

Well fine, but that’s not what your originally contested point was, remember? But I am glad that we can now agree that an ejection system existing during the events of TWS (even if it was a jury-rigged one) and that an ejection system (possibly the same, possibly not) existed during the events of TSC.

No, I don't recall changing my mind on anything there, so maybe it was a communications problem. I maintain it is not a fact, or canon, that there is an ejection system triggered with a button on the bridge in TSC. The one in TWS was jury-rigged for a special purpose, and there is no reason to believe it is a fact it stayed set up like that. I believe such a system would normally be in engineering, and as often is the case, the bridge would issue orders to have engineering take care of it (similar to firing phasers in BoT, though that request is made with a bridge button. More similar to Kirk telling Scotty via comms to cut starboard power, and then portside power later (or vice versa) and the engineer did it, rather than having a button to do it on the bridge. So that's what I think would happen in TSC.

Yes but you don’t have high voltage lines running through the walls of your house either.

Nor do I have Tritanium drywall.

The high capacity current is transformed at the entry point and not taken anywhere it doesn’t precisely need to go. Likewise on a starship you keep the output of the M/AM reactions as far away from the habitable portions of the ship as possible. Aviation design, at its finest

As possible, perhaps, or as practical, yes. So if, for example, dilithium is so rare they can't afford a M/MA reactor at every point of use, they would have one M/AM reactor (as shown) and have to direct plasma around the ship (as ENT and TNG+ suggests, so if one uses ENT as fair game, this is probably how it's done in TOS). But behind Tritanium bulkheads, it's relatively safe to do this. Apparently the impulse fusion reactors, of which they likely have more than one, also makes plasma, though probably in much smaller quantities.

What they said about the engine redesign was not as significant as the visual cues – IOW a gigantic power conduit running right through the main engine room vertically and another one horizontally.

So, for all we know, the same as before, but now we see it instead of it being better hidden somewhere. Are those huge red/orange things behind those screens in engineering impulse engines, or warp engines? Do they ever really say? We might seem them react badly when warp drive is being abused, but impulse engines may be used while warp engines form a warp bubble for all I know, so what do you think?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rad-suits were only a temporary measure though - they were still being worn as late as ST6.

Just an idea, and I'm not sure if radiation suits worn later were issued for everyone, or just a few who still needed to go into a more radiation filled environment. Were they being worn by nearly everyone down there in ST6 like they were in TMP?

Yeah, the issues with Photobucket have been a pain in the backside for a month or more now. However, that link should have taken you straight to the web page itself, rather than the image. What did you actually see when you clicked it?

Their please update your account and P500 icon.

Meanwhile, I am experimenting with other image hosts:

Me too. Imgur or just use my own ISP that gives me free webspace with my email accounts.

Who knows, maybe someone will drop a comment in today?

Thanks.

Whether the antimatter tanks are on the bottom of the secondary hull (a mostly habitable area) or inside the nacelles (a heavily shielded engineering area) they are always going to be vulnerable to attack if the main shields go down. What's important is that the rest of the time they are able to perform their function as efficiently as possible. It's all a balance, and compromise of some sort is inevitable.

But they have other shields besides main shields. When Saavik energized the defense grid, we saw internal shields go up. Areas of the ship had extra shields thrown up, and more vulnerable structural areas were probably shored up with force fields. This happens automatically with Yellow Alert. But since it's internal, it is less likely to appear to be threatening or offensive. Kirk foolishly didn't raise main shields, but if he had, those would be above and beyond and probably on different power systems, and the internal ones have their own power and or backups from the main shields. Space is cold. Layers is the key. I suppose it's just an assumption on my part, but it's easier to defend areas closer in than those sticking out, and the farther you extend the shields, the more energy it takes, the more vulnerable they are, and quicker they'd collapse. And warp engines do seem to be targeted as high priority targets, and do seem to be damaged more than main engineering, or Sickbay, the most heavily protected area of the ship, IIRC.

The notion is derived from the information given during TWS and all the other instances of engineering technology in TOS. The need to balance a pair of warp engines precisely is hardly an outlandish one and in fact borne out by the presence of the "symmetrical warp field governor" on the Enterprise NX-01.

Actually, it's more like most other instances suggest if you don't balance them, the warp bubble doesn't form at all, or just collapses, or you get a wormhole effect and drop to impulse, and not always, and maybe not even usually, a run away escalation of speed. I thought Maybe Day of the Dove did that, but they just kicked up to warp 9 and were going to run out of fuel and then drift, so that wasn't an example of that. Can you name another use in TOS of this governor balancing the engines? Surely, that ship has run away from them more than once, but you'd know better where your governor was used since you believe in it, and I wasn't looking for it.

Why would a one-nacelle ship be unable to maintain a warp field exactly? At reduced speed and efficiency I could believe, but a warp engine is still a warp engine

Not unable, but not set up for it, so a good engineer could probably make the adjustments in time (I say days, but who knows). And with Scotty dead, longer. Either way would preclude the "in the nick of time" rescue TWS required, so the landing party would have been lost.

Maybe. But what is more widely known is that Mr. Spock would have had to invent a replicator in order to do that: Replicators belong in the TNG era!

A.) I said replicated - not that he did it with a replicator. And B.) I gotta believe the food synthesizers were a form of replicator, though more limited and primitive, sure. While I suspect one could program such a device to replicate a cuckoo clock, or more likely its constituent pieces, that task would probably be harder than replicating one by hand, so unless you need more than one . . .

 

[Mytran]

No, I don't recall changing my mind on anything there, so maybe it was a communications problem. I maintain it is not a fact, or canon, that there is an ejection system triggered with a button on the bridge in TSC. The one in TWS was jury-rigged for a special purpose, and there is no reason to believe it is a fact it stayed set up like that. I believe such a system would normally be in engineering, and as often is the case, the bridge would issue orders to have engineering take care of it (similar to firing phasers in BoT, though that request is made with a bridge button. More similar to Kirk telling Scotty via comms to cut starboard power, and then portside power later (or vice versa) and the engineer did it, rather than having a button to do it on the bridge. So that's what I think would happen in TSC.

Permanent button on the Bridge or not, there is a system in place to jettison the nacelles in The Apple, That Which Survives and Savage Curtain. That is the answer to your reaction upthread:

Which system? The one Scotty expressly put into place only after the sabotage?

It may or may not have been the same system in all 3 episodes, but the fact remains that ejection system options were available in all 3 situations.

Nor do I have Tritanium drywall.

Come on – a “true” Star Trek fan would have drywall made from duranium alloy, no?

As possible, perhaps, or as practical, yes. So if, for example, dilithium is so rare they can't afford a M/MA reactor at every point of use, they would have one M/AM reactor (as shown) and have to direct plasma around the ship (as ENT and TNG+ suggests, so if one uses ENT as fair game, this is probably how it's done in TOS). But behind Tritanium bulkheads, it's relatively safe to do this. Apparently the impulse fusion reactors, of which they likely have more than one, also makes plasma, though probably in much smaller quantities.

You presuppose that dilithium is required to produce energy from a M/AM reaction – I do not. In the TOS-E setup, dilithium (or lithium) acted more like a energy conversion matrix, siphoning off power from the main engines (nacelles) and turning it into a form useable by the larger ship systems (inertial dampeners, deflectors, shields, weapons etc).
As for the impulse reactors (and batteries, for that matter) you could probably run those ship systems for a short but very limited period, which was the situation we saw in Mudd’s Women.

So, for all we know, the same as before, but now we see it instead of it being better hidden somewhere. Are those huge red/orange things behind those screens in engineering impulse engines, or warp engines? Do they ever really say? We might seem them react badly when warp drive is being abused, but impulse engines may be used while warp engines form a warp bubble for all I know, so what do you think?

The large pipe structure behind the mesh in engineering was most likely part of the “converter assembly” mentioned in Mudd’s Women, a supplementary system which could be implemented whenever the crystals were unavailable or inoperative to adapt the raw power of the nacelles into something more useable for those secondary systems I mentioned upthread.
While some have tried to identify the pipe structure as the warp plasma delivery system for the nacelles (locating them just below the pylons), the angle of the tubes doesn’t match, the forced perspective doesn’t match, and we see at least 2 distinct engine rooms during the life of TOS each with their own tube structure.

Just an idea, and I'm not sure if radiation suits worn later were issued for everyone, or just a few who still needed to go into a more radiation filled environment. Were they being worn by nearly everyone down there in ST6 like they were in TMP?

Scotty didn’t wear one, that’s for sure! But the presence of rad suits suggests a danger and we are told outright that it is “new”.

…I suppose it's just an assumption on my part, but it's easier to defend areas closer in than those sticking out, and the farther you extend the shields, the more energy it takes, the more vulnerable they are, and quicker they'd collapse. And warp engines do seem to be targeted as high priority targets, and do seem to be damaged more than main engineering, or Sickbay, the most heavily protected area of the ship, IIRC.

Are the nacelles really targeted more often than other parts of the ship? I’m not sure, TBH. But instances of them getting permanently damaged or sheared off are definitely rare.

Can you name another use in TOS of this governor balancing the engines? Surely, that ship has run away from them more than once, but you'd know better where your governor was used since you believe in it, and I wasn't looking for it.

No, because the warp governor was a feature unique to the Enterprise NX-01. But the need to balance the warp field precisely in all eras of Trek is the implication we can take from that series.

Not unable, but not set up for it, so a good engineer could probably make the adjustments in time (I say days, but who knows). And with Scotty dead, longer. Either way would preclude the "in the nick of time" rescue TWS required, so the landing party would have been lost.

If it took days instead of hours to get back, the landing party would be severely dehydrated but not necessarily dead. Maybe they could have rigged a solar still to gather water?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still

A.) I said replicated - not that he did it with a replicator. And B.) I gotta believe the food synthesizers were a form of replicator, though more limited and primitive, sure. While I suspect one could program such a device to replicate a cuckoo clock, or more likely its constituent pieces, that task would probably be harder than replicating one by hand, so unless you need more than one . . .

While your point (A) might be correct on a technicality, it is pretty much voided by your use of (B).

So, did TOS-E have manufacturing and fabrication facilities on board? It would pretty much have to, in order to survive independently in deep space. Were they a form of “primitive replicator?”
The thing is, you could describe pretty much any manufacturing device as such, depending on how you define the term.
We see no evidence that the food slots on the TOS-E are anything but a vending machine or dumbwaiter system. Mirror-Kirk’s cabin has a drinks dispenser in the wainscoting but that hardly requires molecular disassembly to operate – we have that technology now. Ditto for the bowl of chicken soup that the guard got whilst in the Transporter Room in Tomorrow Is Yesterday – of a 23rd Century quality to be sure and enough to wow a dude from 1969, but standard fare to the crew of the Enterprise.
Everyone else used the food slots in public areas like the Recreation Rooms (which could easily have been one deck above the galley)
McCoy mentions “reconstituted” meals in Arena and half the food that the crew eat are those coloured cubes. All indicative of dried, stored and rehydrated foodstuffs, supplemented by some fresh greens (probably grown on board, since they would not last 5 years).

 

[johnnybear]

You bet your pointed ears he did!
JB

 

[Mytran]

That's only because I'm a sensualist

 

[JRTStarlight]

Permanent button on the Bridge or not, there is a system in place to jettison the nacelles in The Apple, That Which Survives and Savage Curtain. That is the answer to your reaction upthread:

I don't think we ever disagreed on such a system being in place somewhere - it's right in dialogue several times, as well we both know - only on where it was, and if being on the bridge for one episode made it canon fact it was still there later.

It may or may not have been the same system in all 3 episodes, but the fact remains that ejection system options were available in all 3 situations.

I'd say the evidence favors it being a different system in TWS because Scotty set up new explosives, and Spock wanted the on-site command option on his order, and not the assessment of a subordinate or an automated system. After all, if Scotty and a large section of the lower hull were to be lost, it is in Spock's character to ensure no one else need bear the responsibility or the emotional fallout of his command decision to give the direct order to kill the chief engineer. But from dialogue, it's obvious it is a standard system somewhere. My guess is still engineering and the bridge will give the order if and when they decide that's the best option and engineering will carry it out.

Come on – a “true” Star Trek fan would have drywall made from duranium alloy, no?

If I had my druthers, I'd want neutronium dry wall. It's a little more expensive but less susceptible to space bacteria.

You presuppose that dilithium is required to produce energy from a M/AM reaction – I do not. In the TOS-E setup, dilithium (or lithium) acted more like a energy conversion matrix, siphoning off power from the main engines (nacelles) and turning it into a form useable by the larger ship systems (inertial dampeners, deflectors, shields, weapons etc.).

As for the impulse reactors (and batteries, for that matter) you could probably run those ship systems for a short but very limited period, which was the situation we saw in Mudd’s Women.

Yes, I do. While I'd prefer references to "lithium" be ret-coned to "dilithium" as most glaringly large false steps in the beginning should be, since lithium can't do that stuff and attempts to make it do it were clumsy and thus the quick change to dilithium (an unknown thing with unknown properties), in other Trek dilithium is permeable to light weight antimatter, and is an essential part of the process. Dilithium may also be required to regulate the plasma energy after M/AM annihilation, but in any event, since it's required later, and since the laws of physics have not changed in that universe, I do assume dilithium is required to produce energy from a M/AM reaction and for each energy conversion matrix. The other mentioned episodes might suggest the dual function and be explained thus. I don't think canon dialogue can prove it one way or the other since it is vague enough to make any cat nervous in multiple ways.

No, because the warp governor was a feature unique to the Enterprise NX-01. But the need to balance the warp field precisely in all eras of Trek is the implication we can take from that series.

Yes, but the assumption one and only one nacelle is running faster and so a governor makes the other match isn't a requirement for that story since both nacelles could be being fed too much as the same rate to get that same effect. No mention of an imbalance in the nacelles is ever made, IIRC.

If it took days instead of hours to get back, the landing party would be severely dehydrated but not necessarily dead. Maybe they could have rigged a solar still to gather water?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still

My point was it would take longer, and since the landing party was only "saved in the nick of time," they would have died had Scotty failed, with either set up.

While your point (A) might be correct on a technicality, it is pretty much voided by your use of (B).

I admit, I had been in a TNG frame of mind and did mean using a replicator, but it's still not what I said. I believe the food synthesizers are a form of replicator, and I further believe just as Scotty can get together 1,000 flintlocks, the engineering section does have a means of replicating at least simple things like jewels (using the power of the ship), replacement components, and the things needed to put together flintlocks if not the flintlocks themselves.

So, did TOS-E have manufacturing and fabrication facilities on board? It would pretty much have to, in order to survive independently in deep space. Were they a form of “primitive replicator?”

Curse me for not reading ahead. Yes, I think they must have had something like that going on in engineering, even at the "industrial" level as in industrial replicators. How else can they fix that ship without dry dock facilities every time they get damaged? Do they haul around metric tons of replacement parts that are just dead weight, or do that pick up handy mass nearly anywhere in the stellar system and reconfigure and reconstitute it?

The thing is, you could describe pretty much any manufacturing device as such, depending on how you define the term.

We see no evidence that the food slots on the TOS-E are anything but a vending machine or dumbwaiter system. Mirror-Kirk’s cabin has a drinks dispenser in the wainscoting but that hardly requires molecular disassembly to operate – we have that technology now. Ditto for the bowl of chicken soup that the guard got whilst in the Transporter Room in Tomorrow Is Yesterday – of a 23rd Century quality to be sure and enough to wow a dude from 1969, but standard fare to the crew of the Enterprise.

I suppose it could be a simple dumbwaiter. That would explain how a tribble was already in his chicken sandwich and coffee. Damn highly efficient dumbwaiter, though. Must be a smartwaiter by the 23rd century. Frozen ice cream and piping hot soup, no waiting, and none of that melted cream or luke warm soup, too. Though unless you think a chef is behind the wall just ready to whip up your order in mere seconds . . . Well, I guess the selection is far more limited, like what's already in the vending machine (on the tape decks). Maybe it's beamed there from a centralized kitchen (tribble and all). Foolish, though, for if you have transporter tech, that's already more sophisticated than replicator tech.

Of course it's always possible they use a combination of systems to explain both observations and possibilities, one more like a dumbwaiter for pre-prepared foods (far less cost in energy) or those that use synthesizers beyond protein sequencers (quicker, more versatile, but far more expensive in energy costs).

McCoy mentions “reconstituted” meals in Arena and half the food that the crew eats is those coloured cubes. All indicative of dried, stored and rehydrated foodstuffs, supplemented by some fresh greens (probably grown on board, since they would not last 5 years).

McCoy just doesn't like the idea of eating and drinking stuff that not so long ago was urine and feces. Maybe those cubes are just nutritionally properly balanced complete meals and quick for the active crewman on the go when they don't always have time to sit down and eat for 30 minutes or more.

 

[JRTStarlight]

While some have tried to identify the pipe structure as the warp plasma delivery system for the nacelles (locating them just below the pylons), the angle of the tubes doesn’t match, the forced perspective doesn’t match, and we see at least 2 distinct engine rooms during the life of TOS each with their own tube structure.

Have you considered the possibility that deck has reverse gravity? Flip it over and look at it again. Maybe those pipes have the correct angle then?

 

[Mytran]

...While I'd prefer references to "lithium" be ret-coned to "dilithium" as most glaringly large false steps in the beginning should be, since lithium can't do that stuff and attempts to make it do it were clumsy and thus the quick change to dilithium (an unknown thing with unknown properties), in other Trek dilithium is permeable to light weight antimatter, and is an essential part of the process. Dilithium may also be required to regulate the plasma energy after M/AM annihilation, but in any event, since it's required later, and since the laws of physics have not changed in that universe, I do assume dilithium is required to produce energy from a M/AM reaction and for each energy conversion matrix. The other mentioned episodes might suggest the dual function and be explained thus. I don't think canon dialogue can prove it one way or the other since it is vague enough to make any cat nervous in multiple ways.

I've got no objection to the crew using "lithium" as a shorthand for "dilithium" in those early episodes. As to their use, there's actually quite a lot of dialogue in TOS that suggests what part lithium/dilithium crystals play in the engineering system and none of it states that it is "permeable to light weight antimatter". In fact, was that ever stated; anywhere?

Yes, but the assumption one and only one nacelle is running faster and so a governor makes the other match isn't a requirement for that story since both nacelles could be being fed too much as the same rate to get that same effect. No mention of an imbalance in the nacelles is ever made, IIRC.

A lot of things aren't mentioned, doesn't mean we can't infer them. And while you could have a single, central reactor in the secondary hull with ejectable antimatter tanks now being referred to as "pods" - all that would only work for this one episode, standing in stark contrast to the rest of TOS.

My point was it would take longer, and since the landing party was only "saved in the nick of time," they would have died had Scotty failed, with either set up.

As far as Spock knew they were merely stranded on the planet - although he should have know that Kirk would be getting to life threatening adventures, I suppose!

Yes, I think they must have had something like that going on in engineering, even at the "industrial" level as in industrial replicators. How else can they fix that ship without dry dock facilities every time they get damaged? Do they haul around metric tons of replacement parts that are just dead weight, or do that pick up handy mass nearly anywhere in the stellar system and reconfigure and reconstitute it?

I figure they've got a supply of basic elements and components, along with some highly advanced fabrication machinery! Machined components have to be easier to put together than tasty and edible food, don't they?

I suppose it could be a simple dumbwaiter. That would explain how a tribble was already in his chicken sandwich and coffee.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how the tribbles got in there otherwise!

Have you considered the possibility that deck has reverse gravity? Flip it over and look at it again. Maybe those pipes have the correct angle then?

Nope, they'd still be at 30 degrees off vertical. The nacelle pylons are set at 45 degrees. Never gonna match.

 

[JRTStarlight]

I've got no objection to the crew using "lithium" as shorthand for "dilithium" in those early episodes. As to their use, there's actually quite a lot of dialogue in TOS that suggests what part lithium/dilithium crystals play in the engineering system and none of it states that it is "permeable to light weight antimatter". In fact, was that ever stated; anywhere?

In dialogue, almost certainly not in any of the series, though there are clues. For example, it's reasonable to infer the antimatter is anti deuterium, which is lightweight antimatter, and since energy is likely most easily turned into lighter mass particles than heavier ones, when they collect energy to make anti matter, it's probably anti deuterium they make. I assume they do this near a star and so capture and harness energy there. The trick isn't getting the energy, but storing it for later release between stars where you can't just find other energy sources. Of course, they never really go into detail where they get their antimatter in dialogue, either.

Have You Ever Worked With Antimatter Before?

Yes, Yes I Have.

And Where Did You Get This Antimatter?

My Aunt Had Some.

It's stupidity itself to suggest dilithium is an element and not a compound, IMO. I'm not sure if dialogue actually says it's an element or not, but most sources I've seen say it is. I don't mind they have discovered naturally occurring stable elements beyond 92 so much, but that was more foolish than just inventing and using more exotic compounds, naturally occurring or otherwise. If you wish elements beyond 92, fine, but even then, most fictional alloys and compounds like mithral, unatainium, handwavium, or others would best be described as compounds (perhaps using those elements) than just elements themselves, allowing for more wiggle room on the science front without saying things that are obviously wrong or stupid.

Another source says the dilithium crystal structure is 2(5)6 dilithium 2: diallosilicate 1:9:1 heptoferranide. That sounds more like a compound to me than an atomic element.

And worse than using lithium since its properties are well known, there is actually a real dilithium, too, though only as a gas. Better to incorporate those elements with others and in a keen arrangement to allow for new properties than to claim a simple element is doing all that, IMO, even if it is a hypersonic series element.

Anyway, the permeable aspects can also be reasonably inferred. Whatever dilithium is, it is still matter and not antimatter, so if it comes into direct contact with the antimatter, it will explode. It is said the charged antimatter and charged matter streams (and there is a lot more deuterium than antideuterium) stay away from the atomic lattice sites due to eddy currents set up in dilithium crystals, and thus since the antimatter doesn't actually touch the atoms in the crystal, no annihilation occurs on that front. Instead, annihilation occurs between deuterium and anti-deuterium inside the dilithium crystals producing photons that highly energize the rest of the deuterium turning that into high-energy plasma. And though not mentioned in dialogue, we can reasonably infer this. Many have. It's not official, I suppose, but that does seem to be the way it works.

I now read Humanity found some dilithium on a moon of Jupiter, and also 2 to 3% of all quartz is dilithium on Earth, but we do not yet have the tech to tell the difference. True or not, who can say?

A lot of things aren't mentioned, doesn't mean we can't infer them.

Right.

And while you could have a single, central reactor in the secondary hull with ejectable antimatter tanks now being referred to as "pods" - all that would only work for this one episode, standing in stark contrast to the rest of TOS.

How so? I think my set up reflects what is shown (one main M/AM reactor in engineering), the fact they can jettison the nacelles works as a means to "dump the core" i.e antimatter they are losing control over before it blows up), and power is made there and regulated through there. In TWS, they couldn't jettison the nacelles due to sabotage, so a more drastic means was devised.

Which dialogue/episode in particular are you saying stands in stark contrast to my set up? I wish to look at it with fresh eyes.

As far as Spock knew they were merely stranded on the planet - although he should have know that Kirk would be getting to life threatening adventures, I suppose!

Spock didn't know how bad off they were, sure, but hurried back as quickly as possible regardless. They just got lucky the timing was so . . . dramatic.

I figure they've got a supply of basic elements and components, along with some highly advanced fabrication machinery! Machined components have to be easier to put together than tasty and edible food, don't they?

Simple compounds or repetitive crystal structures, like metal sheets or diamonds, are probably the easiest. Uniform stuff, like water, gases, would be easier than complex things like milk or medicines or most food. But all that's easier than putting a human being back together, I would think, unless there's something about the physics that only allows one to take the original apart while SIMULTANEOUSLY putting the new one back together, reading and using and discarding the information as you go, converting mass to energy and immediately back to mass as you go so you don't have to hold the total energy of a human in your system and then later convert that all back to mass.

Even if simultaneous destruction and construction are required, they could still take, for example, water, and turn it into wine of equivalent mass if they knew the molecular arrangement well enough without needing a copy/sample of wine on hand to do it.

This all means, though, if it is simple enough, it's better to use nearby asteroids for source mass than carry around a bunch of stuff as dead weight.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how the tribbles got in there otherwise!

If at least some of them aren't dumbwaiters, or transportation systems, the only other way would be for tribbles to lay in wait in the dispensing area and ambush the food at it appears. LOOK! Coffee and a chicken sandwich. ATTACK!

KIRK: My chicken sandwich and coffee. This is my chicken sandwich and coffee.
SPOCK: Fascinating.
KIRK: I want these off the ship. I don't care if it takes every man we've got, I want them off the ship.

Nope, they'd still be at 30 degrees off vertical. The nacelle pylons are set at 45 degrees. Never gonna match.

Well, if they can be bent more after they disappear behind the wall, at least with reverse gravity, they'd have to be bent less this way than before.

 

[Kemaiku]

Dilithium crystals are shown in the TNG technical manual.

Dilithium is a superheavy element in the transition metal series with a d-orbital active valence shell. But the crystal, is a complex arrangement of it, Aluminum, Silicon, Oxygen, with "heptoferranide tunnels" or rings of 7 iron atoms that when stacked in the molecule, form tunnels that carry a small charge that makes the tunnel form a magnetic "shielding" that prevents the antimatter from touching the crystal.

It's technically a nano-tube of iron that forms under pressure naturally around Dilithium atoms on certain planets (Remus, Coridan) or asteroids. But forcing the tunnels to open again once collasped by the heat and pressure of warp reaction was once impossible, using a method to repair the tunnels like a metallic capillary operation didn't occur until the 24th century.

 

[JRTStarlight]

This is wonderful and probably the best bet but still not technically canon and almost certainly not backed up in dialogue, and therefore still subject to change, and perhaps wildly so at a later time. But clearly, there we see "dilithium crystals" are not one element but a compound, which is good, IMO.

Recrystallizing that stuff with gathered photons is a pretty daft idea, however. Chekov didn't take the crystals with him, did he? He just gathered and stored the high energy photons, right? Well, it seemed like a weak idea to do on the fly and nothing about it suggested why it wasn't obvious before, for example. But I guess we're stuck with it.

 

[Timo]

Let's not forget that we have this whole range of lithium things associated with warp propulsion: dilithium, lithium, trilithium, paralithium. Since Kirk's ship runs both on dilithium and lithium, we may plead "multifuel" or we may plead lithium crystal being a valid alternate name for dilithium crystal. If the latter, then "lithium crystal" probably is a catchall name for a range of 'em things, including paralithium crystals and the like.

We may then venture outside today's parlance or stick with it. If we choose to make a stand, then it's pretty obvious that this is just a complex crystalline chemical structure with the real-world element lithium stuck there in various ways and in various quantities. But then we're forced to look for an explanation for the magical qualities elsewhere. If we choose to treat all these various names for lithium stuff as magic unto itself (subspace levels to Mendeleyev's table or whatnot), then that's that - but perhaps not for the better.

As for "recrystallizing", I doubt it's a new physical property of dilithium that Spock suddenly discovers. Rather, I like to think he read the fine manual and realized the klever Klingons have come up with this amazing machine that recrystallizes their dilithium, if only one feeds high energy neutrons into the machine. And there's a sudden shortage of those, because they were generated by the annihilation reaction, and Spock read the manual too late to realize the Klingon engineers intended the recrystallizer to be operated while the dilithium still had some oomph left.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

I did speculate years ago that they experimented with using artificial Lithium nano-tube cages that were atomically manufactured, cutting out all the mining of Dilithium. All the burning, cracking and failing of the crystals was most common in the series when it was called Lithium crystals, implying the artifically made single element ones were poor substitues.

They were under attack and using raw Dilithium crystals in Elaan of Troyus so maybe Klingon disrupters have severe internal effects to other ships warp drives.

Trilithium is mentioned in TNG during the Baryon sweep episode I think as a by-product that accumulates on the crystals, I think in Generations it's called a 'compound', not an element, so Trilithium is some bizarre result of the crystal lattice undergoing a change. (Maybe simply a complex mineral with 3 Dillithium atoms in the center.)

Paralithium was Threshold though wasn't it? the magic warp 10 substance...

 

[Mytran]

Paralithium was Threshold though wasn't it? the magic warp 10 substance...

No, that was described as "a new form of dilithium {which} remains stable at a much higher warp frequency." Nice and vague, thankfully!

Paralithium is from The Chute, in which four vessels in Akritirian space were found by the Voyager to have paralithium plasma emissions. Three of them had not produced trilithium, but a cargo vessel which was using this fuel, was later determined to have used their paralithium fuel to create a trilithium explosive, and supplied it to the terrorist organization known as "Open Sky." (from http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Paralithium)

 

[Mytran]

I think my set up reflects what is shown (one main M/AM reactor in engineering), the fact they can jettison the nacelles works as a means to "dump the core" i.e antimatter they are losing control over before it blows up), and power is made there and regulated through there. In TWS, they couldn't jettison the nacelles due to sabotage, so a more drastic means was devised.

Except that "more drastic" in this case means blowing apart half the secondary hull.
Look, if you want to have a TNG style setup in your TOS-E that's fine. But can't you just put the antimatter tanks near one of those convenient ejection hatches? You could even retcon the dialogue in TSC to indicate that Kirk wanted Scotty to separate the saucer (thus also technically jettisoning the nacelles). After all, with the antimatter shielding breaking down, it would not have been safe to attempt a pod ejection at that time...

Which dialogue/episode in particular are you saying stands in stark contrast to my set up? I wish to look at it with fresh eyes.

I gave a list upthread of all the instances where "pod" was used to describe the nacelles and how it is the nacelles which are the source of main power on board ship.
But you're right - a proper analysis of the role dilithium crystals play in TOS engineering terms is definitely in order. I'll see what I can come up with

Simple compounds or repetitive crystal structures, like metal sheets or diamonds, are probably the easiest. Uniform stuff, like water, gases, would be easier than complex things like milk or medicines or most food. But all that's easier than putting a human being back together, I would think, unless there's something about the physics that only allows one to take the original apart while SIMULTANEOUSLY putting the new one back together, reading and using and discarding the information as you go, converting mass to energy and immediately back to mass as you go so you don't have to hold the total energy of a human in your system and then later convert that all back to mass.

All that just reinforces my belief that the Transporter (and replicator) absolutely DO NOT operate by disassembling and reassembling their subjects at the molecular level.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Except that "more drastic" in this case means blowing apart half the secondary hull.

Half? I wouldn't go that far. Depending on the configuration, it might not be more than half of one deck, and a few more compartments along the way.

Look, if you want to have a TNG style setup in your TOS-E that's fine. But can't you just put the antimatter tanks near one of those convenient ejection hatches?

Live and learn. That is precisely what they learned to do later by TNG, and that wasn't so much to save a larger section of the hull (since how often are they sabotaged like that?) but to save two seconds.

You could even retcon the dialogue in TSC to indicate that Kirk wanted Scotty to separate the saucer (thus also technically jettisoning the nacelles). After all, with the antimatter shielding breaking down, it would not have been safe to attempt a pod ejection at that time...

Why retcon it? I'm counting on it. The M/AM are in red zone proximity, and the magnetic containment is going to fail in 4 hours. Kirk's suggestion is the normal way to handle that - jettison the nacelles - get rid of the antimatter that's out and already in the system. They couldn't do that in TWS due to sabotage, but they can still do it here - or Kirk thought they might. The fact they have AM pods and nacelles and don't use those terms interchangeably suggests they either don't always keep AM in the nacelles but can direct the AM in the system to them to jettison them, like dumping the warp core. I don't see how the suggested episodes stand in such contrast they can not be interpreted that way.

I gave a list upthread of all the instances where "pod" was used to describe the nacelles and how it is the nacelles that are the source of main power on board ship.

But you're right - a proper analysis of the role dilithium crystals play in TOS engineering terms is definitely in order. I'll see what I can come up with

Ah, that list. I saw the same things and did not and still do not see how they remain in stark contrast. Rather, they support my assertions. If I saw something that wouldn't work for that system, I'd say so. In The Apple, for example, the AM is inert (while the beams are on) so an explosion is not the fear, but a tractor beam-like pull down into the atmosphere. Their only power - the impulse engines. Why carry the tonnage of the nacelles and the main engineering section if they are useless? Get rid of them and get out with the impulse engine powered saucer section without all that other baggage. Etc.

All that just reinforces my belief that the Transporter (and replicator) absolutely DO NOT operate by disassembling and reassembling their subjects at the molecular level.

I have never liked that explanation, for it would, in essence, kill the original and make a copy (and since it leaves a transporter trace or signature, it's not even an exact copy). Something goes on in your place, but you're still dead, almost like you and your twin brother, raised together, same experiences, were as close to being the same person as possible. And now, one of you dies. Is it supposed to be a comfort the other one goes on so it's no big deal one died?

I have always preferred something more akin to a probability blink drive, where, like quantum tunneling, it becomes increasingly improbable you remain where you were and increasingly more probable you go where you wanted to go (within range).

 

[Timo]

Certainly there are several ways to treat the dialogue from "The Savage Curtain". In any case, Kirk's clipped language need not be taken to mean that the thing to be "jettisoned" is the nacelles.

Quite possibly, Kirk has a TNG warp core analogue aboard, and it can only be jettisoned after preparation (a lot of preparation if there's additional hindrance from damage or sabotage as in "That Which Survives") - and a key step is first disengaging the nacelles, that is, cutting the flow of the power-plasma-whatnot from the core to the nacelles and then sealing everything very, very carefully lest the ship blow up from antimatter leaks when the core finally pops out.

The description of the problem is annoyingly contradictory: the ship is deprived of power, but also about to blow up. If the seals of the antimatter stores were mysteriously decaying towards a destructive leak in four hours, why should this also make the ship totally lose fighting power for those four hours (when a ship does fine with neutralized antimatter and secondary means of power in "Doomsday Weapon")? If the ship mysteriously lost power, why should this result in a countdown to a kaboom (when it never does elsewhere in TOS)?

Also, Scotty doesn't explicate a problem with jettisoning the antimatter. But Kirk seems to address a jettisoning issue with his orders. Perhaps there was no real danger, and Scotty could have ejected the redlining am stores whenever he wished, and would have done so if things really began looking bleak, but he never risked doing that because he didn't hear from Kirk? After all, ejecting the main power source would be synonymous with surrender or suicide.

Timo Saloniemi