Was Kirk supposed to be a Lt. Commander?

[Arpy]

I assume the costume designer did. But it's unlikely he would have made any decision on Kirk's rank, That would have come from Roddenberry. And obviously between the Cage and WNMHGB is was decided that the Captain needed an insignia that set him apart from the rest of the crew.

Why did the costume designer go with that design? Also, Roddenberry was a military man and might have spotted it immediately; was he okay with it, or, like the afore-mentioned lithium crystals and UESPA, did he initially think maybe they'd try something different for the series? What if he had?

And why do you think Kirk's insignia is that of a "Lt. Commander"?

Because it looks like it could be the futuristic version of this. Don't tell me that this is the first time you've ever heard anyone wonder if that was the inspiration.

Mitchell is identified as a Lt. Commander in dialog. He has one stripe.

Now we're getting somewhere. If Mitchell was verbally identified as a lieutenant commander from the start, then the window of possibility for the rank shrinks further. It was at most a pre-production thing, like the design for the Klingon Bird-of-Prey being a Romulan one.

Kirk is the Commanding Officer. Changing his rank doesn't change his position or authority, So that would not make the show go in a different direction.

Yes, it would, because the question isn't whether we could have the same show if he were a lieutenant commander, but if he were initially meant to be one and what it might have been like if he were. And if he were, though possible in the multiverse, it is unlikely that the show would have unfolded in exactly the same way. And for the purpose of this fun thread on a fun BB, I wonder what others think about what some of those other ways might have been like.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why did the costume designer go with that design? Also, Roddenberry was a military man and might have spotted it immediately; was he okay with it, or, like the afore-mentioned lithium crystals and UESPA, did he initially think maybe they'd try something different for the series? What if he had?

Roddenberry was in the Air Force. His naval knowledge was limited. Which at times is apparent.
The pilot uniforms were pretty simple. They got a complete overhaul for the series. So obviously they rethought them and came up with a new rank scheme. Not because it was a mistake but because they wanted something more complex.

Because it looks like it could be the futuristic version of this. Don't tell me that this is the first time you've ever heard anyone wonder if that was the inspiration.

They weren't going for a one to one duplication. They wanted something that looked good on TV. Three works better as a visual

Now we're getting somewhere. If Mitchell was verbally identified as a lieutenant commander from the start, then the window of possibility for the rank shrinks further. It was at most a pre-production thing, like the design for the Klingon Bird-of-Prey being a Romulan one.

The script and the uniform designs are all preproduction,

Yes, it would, because the question isn't whether we could have the same show if he were a lieutenant commander, but if he were initially meant to be one and what it might have been like if he were. And if he were, though possible in the multiverse, it is unlikely that the show would have unfolded in exactly the same way. And for the purpose of this fun thread on a fun BB, I wonder what others think about what some of those other ways might have been like.

His position would have to be different, to change the direction of the show or character. As long as Kirk is the Commanding Officer it's pretty much the same show/character.

 

[Ithekro]

During World War II, US Army Air Corp ranks were pins on the shoulders, no officer had sleeve ranks like on the US Navy's officers and that was dress blue uniforms only. Naval officer's duty uniforms had pins just like the Army.

 

[Push The Button]

Gene was also an airline pilot, those ranks (captain, first officer, second officer) and the stripes on the uniform sleeves seem to be closer to the naval convention. Which almost makes sense if you think of Starfleet as a civilian organization, just like a commercial airline.

Following the original Pan Am example, many modern airline pilot's uniforms closely resemble traditional naval officer's uniforms. One of the closest likeness is issued to Delta Air Lines pilots, with black double-breasted blazers with brass buttons and gold sleeve braiding. Another airline that adopted naval-style uniforms is Air France, which feature a loop on top of the last stripe, known as the executive curl. Other airlines's pilot uniforms feature single-breasted blazers with gold or silver braiding, similar in design to uniforms used by British Royal Air Force officers and air force officers of other Commonwealth and former Commonwealth countries. A few airlines use colored cloth braid stripes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

My 'head-canon' is there are two options, both of which include an unseen "three stripe" rank:

1) Fleet Captains (XO to an Admiral) where "three stripe", with "two-and-a-half" to "half" ranking as Captain, Commander, Lt Commander, Lieutenant and Lieutenant Junior Grade respecively. Ensigns and Midshipmen/Cadets wear "no stripes".
2) Captain-by-rank is "three stripes", junior Commanding Officers are referred to as "Captain" but rank as CMDR or Sub-CMDR ("two-and-a-half" or "two" stripes), other officers (inc XOs) wear "two", "one-and-a-half", "one", "half" or "no" stripes, and are titled Sub-CMDR, LT-CMDR, LT, LT-JG or ENS.

 

[Arpy]

Roddenberry was in the Air Force. His naval knowledge was limited.

I don't think it's that limited. Plus, see Push the Button's reply.

They weren't going for a one to one duplication. They wanted something that looked good on TV. Three works better as a visual

Sources? Why does three (2 1/2) work better than four? It didn't last past TMP.

The script and the uniform designs are all preproduction,

If he was a lieutenant commander, I wonder what the thinking was there.

His position would have to be different, to change the direction of the show or character. As long as Kirk is the Commanding Officer it's pretty much the same show/character.

Not true. Again, "it is unlikely that the show would have unfolded in exactly the same way. And for the purpose of this fun thread on a fun BB, I wonder what others think about what some of those other ways might have been like."

Episodes would have been written differently and other episodes would have been written instead of some. During the series, I could see Kirk being less sure of himself and his ship (and rightly so) if it weren't the baddest ship in the fleet. I could see brinksmanship with the Klingons being more dangerous, as now it's a corvette skipper lieutenant commander dancing on the rapier's edge. I could see in episodes like "Journey to Babel" Sarek think even less of Spock's career path as he's not second in command of a "Starship," with the added significance that had in TOS, but of a perhaps less-vaunted vessel. I could see an episode written where Kirk has to go up against a full captain in command of a cruiser and show his Horatio Hornblower mettle -- a Starfleet v. Starfleet "Balance of Terror"? On and on.

My 'head-canon' is there are two options, both of which include an unseen "three stripe" rank:

1) Fleet Captains (XO to an Admiral) where "three stripe", with "two-and-a-half" to "half" ranking as Captain, Commander, Lt Commander, Lieutenant and Lieutenant Junior Grade respecively. Ensigns and Midshipmen/Cadets wear "no stripes".
2) Captain-by-rank is "three stripes", junior Commanding Officers are referred to as "Captain" but rank as CMDR or Sub-CMDR ("two-and-a-half" or "two" stripes), other officers (inc XOs) wear "two", "one-and-a-half", "one", "half" or "no" stripes, and are titled Sub-CMDR, LT-CMDR, LT, LT-JG or ENS.

I could see three stripes as a Fleet Captain, but above that I think it goes to those thick bars we saw commodores wear in TOS and admirals did in the movies.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I could see three stripes as a Fleet Captain, but above that I think it goes to those thick bars we saw commodores wear in TOS and admirals did in the movies.

My examples above are for Fleet Captain and below.

But to continue with the senior ranks, I agree that the next step above was originally one "bar" (known as Commodore during TOS [in-line with modern Commonwealth navies), Admiral rank from the 2350s onwards [RADML in the US, Flotilla Admiral otherwise]), with one to four stripes added to designate seniority (oddly, evidence suggests VADM is the fourth flag rank rather than the third as in modern practice).

 

[J.T.B.]

Why did the costume designer go with that design?

The Making of Star Trek The Motion Picture says that in the series

"It was felt that the traditional four gold stripes of ship captain's rank was too blatantly 'militaristic'-looking for a 23rd-century paramilitary starship. Accordingly, the captain was held to a couple of stripes and lower ranks to even less."
(Italics in original)​

As for "The Cage," since Number One is called "lieutenant," I think it is possible that they were thinking of a more Hornblower-like setup, where there were only two commissioned officer ranks aboard ship: the captain and a number of lieutenants. Everyone would know who the captain was, so more specific insignia was less necessary. Obviously this changed for WNMHGB when the rank of "lieutenant commander" was specified.

Episodes would have been written differently and other episodes would have been written instead of some.

I think that's doubtful. The point of the series was that the ship was operating alone and having adventures. In the heyday of the British Empire (specifically cited as an inspiration for the show's setting), policing the dominions, colonies and overseas stations was a job for a naval cruiser. Which on the larger side (frigates and corvettes) would be commanded by a full captain, and on the smaller side (sloops) by a commander who was always called captain. The points of contact within the crew would have remained the same: the captain (star) and a few senior officers (co-stars and recurring players), whether there were 100 additional crew or 400.

The audience would not care (and most would not even know) about whether the captain was an actual captain or not, just as they don't know or care that the captains in The Sand Pebbles or The Caine Mutiny or The Enemy Below or Das Boot or Run Silent, Run Deep or The Cruel Sea did not actually hold the rank of captain.

 

[Tenacity]

Again, flagships are the command ships of fleets

Except in the Star Trek series they're not. It's more using "flagship" to mean showpiece or example of what the Federation can do.

The Enterprise D wasn't the flagship of Starfleet, or a given fleet. And the command ship at the beginning of FC wasn't called the flagship, it was call "the Admiral's ship."

In terms of calling a command ship a flagship, Starfleet might not use that particular piece of terminology or designate.

 

[J.T.B.]

In terms of calling a command ship a flagship, Starfleet might not use that particular piece of terminology or designate.

Admiral Nechayev does use it that way in TNG "Descent."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think it's that limited. Plus, see Push the Button's reply.

@Push The Button's reply was about Airlines, Doesn't really address Roddenberry's naval knowledge. @J.T.B. could probably address Star Trek v The Navy better than I could,

Sources? Why does three (2 1/2) work better than four? It didn't last past TMP.

See @J.T.B. post

If he was a lieutenant commander, I wonder what the thinking was there.

Who's thinking? He never was a Lt. Commander. so there was no "thinking" to wonder about. You want people to imagine what Roddenderry would have imagine if he imagined Kirk as a Lt. Commander?????

Not true. Again, "it is unlikely that the show would have unfolded in exactly the same way. And for the purpose of this fun thread on a fun BB, I wonder what others think about what some of those other ways might have been like."

Episodes would have been written differently and other episodes would have been written instead of some. During the series, I could see Kirk being less sure of himself and his ship (and rightly so) if it weren't the baddest ship in the fleet. I could see brinksmanship with the Klingons being more dangerous, as now it's a corvette skipper lieutenant commander dancing on the rapier's edge. I could see in episodes like "Journey to Babel" Sarek think even less of Spock's career path as he's not second in command of a "Starship," with the added significance that had in TOS, but of a perhaps less-vaunted vessel. I could see an episode written where Kirk has to go up against a full captain in command of a cruiser and show his Horatio Hornblower mettle -- a Starfleet v. Starfleet "Balance of Terror"? On and on.

See @J.T.B. post.
You clearly don't understand the thinking behind the creation of Star Trek in general and Kirk in particular. The hero ship will always be the "baddest". Kirk will out think and out fight the Klingons no matter what his rank or ship. Sarek's problem with Spock will always be that he joined Starfleet, not what his posting is. Kirk is often up against Commodores, fellow Captains and high ranking Starfleet and Federation officials. It's already part of who he is,

 

[BillJ]

Only from Corbomite Maneuver forward. And there's a little confusion there too.

Except "Tomorrow is Yesterday", where Kirk calls Spock a Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Arpy]

My examples above are for Fleet Captain and below.

But to continue with the senior ranks, I agree that the next step above was originally one "bar" (known as Commodore during TOS [in-line with modern Commonwealth navies), Admiral rank from the 2350s onwards [RADML in the US, Flotilla Admiral otherwise]), with one to four stripes added to designate seniority (oddly, evidence suggests VADM is the fourth flag rank rather than the third as in modern practice).

I think I was a little confused when you said captain-by-rank was three stripes, as well as Fleet Captain.

Also, I wonder if the admiralty would go by halfs as well.
Bar - commodore/ RALH
Bar 1/2 - rear admiral/ RAUH
Bar stripe - vice admiral
Bar stripe 1/2 - admiral
Bar stripe stripe - fleet admiral
This would keep the upper ranks from being as similar to ours and thereby more similar to TOS.'

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think I was a little confused when you said captain-by-rank was three stripes, as well as Fleet Captain.

Also, I wonder if the admiralty would go by halfs as well.
Bar - commodore/ RDML
Bar 1/2 - rear admiral/ RADM
Bar stripe - vice admiral
Bar stripe 1/2 - admiral
Bar stripe stripe - fleet admiral
This would keep the upper ranks from being as similar to ours and thereby more similar to TOS.'

I've experimented with the idea, but I think it might work better by removing the "bar" and just having stripes, but in a different color.

Bronze or black badge & stripes = Crewmen, Petty Officers & Chiefs
Silver badge & stripes (KT style) = Cadets and Officers (up to Captain)
Gold badge & stripes (TOS style) = Admirals

But each follow the 0-3 stripes in 1/2 stripe increments. (eg, Bronze "no stripe" would be Recruits/Trainees up to three stripes for Master Chief, Silver "no stripe" would be Ensign up to three stripes for a (Fleet) Captain, Gold stripes would be "no stripe" for a Commodore/Flotilla Admiral/Rear Admiral Lower Half to three stripes for a Grand Admiral?.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Incredibly, in "The Cage," *everyone* had only one stripe, or none.

Or half.

Why does three (2 1/2) work better than four? It didn't last past TMP.

Well, neither did sleeve stripes in general. Until ST2009, when they used the same system as in TOS.

I do kinda wish TNG had based their pip system on the TOS stripes though. (eg - captain would be one solid, one hollow, one solid.) That would have been a nice link back to the original.

Also, I wonder if the admiralty would go by halfs as well.

I've wondered about this as well, but TMP seems to continue with the TOS system, and Kirk appears to be a rear admiral, and has the bar and one full stripe. So if half-stripes exist in the admiral grades, it seems that it would only start at vice admiral at the earliest.

Interestingly, if we take Fitzpatrick's insignia as legitimate (I don't think his stripes were shown in the episode, but they were seen in the outtake clip), then whatever grade of admiral he is has one stripe over and one stripe under the bar. With that kind of layout, I tend to think they probably wouldn't use half-stripes for admirals at all, and a reasonable extrapolation might be:

Commodore - bar
Rear Admiral - stripe bar
Vice Admiral - stripe bar stripe
Admiral - stripe stripe bar stripe
Fleet Admiral - either stripe stripe stripe bar stripe, or stripe stripe bar stripe stripe, depending on which actually looks better in practice!

 

[Arpy]

The Making of Star Trek The Motion Picture says that in the series

"It was felt that the traditional four gold stripes of ship captain's rank was too blatantly 'militaristic'-looking for a 23rd-century paramilitary starship. Accordingly, the captain was held to a couple of stripes and lower ranks to even less."
(Italics in original)​

Huh, I thought that initially the Enterprise was a "military" starship, so to hear it be referred to as paramilitary from the start is interesting.

As for "The Cage," since Number One is called "lieutenant," I think it is possible that they were thinking of a more Hornblower-like setup, where there were only two commissioned officer ranks aboard ship: the captain and a number of lieutenants. Everyone would know who the captain was, so more specific insignia was less necessary. Obviously this changed for WNMHGB when the rank of "lieutenant commander" was specified.

See that's really interesting. Again it goes into a "what if" scenario. What would TOS have been like if Pike, Number One, (and Boyce?) are the only commissioned officers and it's more Napoleonic still?

I think that's doubtful. The point of the series was that the ship was operating alone and having adventures.

What's doubtful? That there's more than one way to be operating alone, having adventures? The point of the question is to consider roads not taken.

Except in the Star Trek series they're not. It's more using "flagship" to mean showpiece or example of what the Federation can do.

Interesting. I don't know what it means in canon these days.

The Enterprise D wasn't the flagship of Starfleet, or a given fleet. And the command ship at the beginning of FC wasn't called the flagship, it was call "the Admiral's ship."

That "admiral's ship" does not preclude use of "flagship." Maybe like Hansen at 359, it was referring to a specific admiral that they cared about and wanted to stress the point. Or for the audience's sake who would either not know what a flagship was or expect the Enterprise to be it. Also, Nechayev.

@Push The Button's reply was about Airlines, Doesn't really address Roddenberry's naval knowledge.

I've never been in any military yet I know ranks in half a dozen different countries. Roddenberry was in himself and a writer writing about a star fleet, and, as mentioned, pilot ranks are not that far off. Also as mentioned the effort to differentiate from navy ranks was a conscious purposeful one. Are you being obtuse on purpose because you don't like this what-if thread?

You want people to imagine what Roddenderry would have imagine if he imagined Kirk as a Lt. Commander?????

Yeah, I want people to conjecture what that might have been like. It's fun. Try it.

You clearly don't understand...

Zzzzzzzzz

Except "Tomorrow is Yesterday", where Kirk calls Spock a Lieutenant Commander.

Woap! It's canon now! Red alert!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Are you being obtuse on purpose because you don't like this what-if thread?

Yeah, I want people to conjecture what that might have been like. It's fun. Try it.

There simply aren't enough whats and ifs to make this interesting.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I do kinda wish TNG had based their pip system on the TOS stripes though. (eg - captain would be one solid, one hollow, one solid.) That would have been a nice link back to the original.

I've generally assumed that (regardless of what you call it) Picard - a 59-60 year old with over thirty years in service (as of Encounter at Farpoint) - was more senior that TOS-era Kirk (approximately ten years in service as of The Man Trap), so would wear three-pips (by Insurrection he may in fact be a Commodore or junior Admiral as he wears the Dress Whites that were only worn by Ross otherwise, rather than the Officers Dress Whites.

I've wondered about this as well, but TMP seems to continue with the TOS system, and Kirk appears to be a rear admiral, and has the bar and one full stripe. So if half-stripes exist in the admiral grades, it seems that it would only start at vice admiral at the earliest.

Interestingly, if we take Fitzpatrick's insignia as legitimate (I don't think his stripes were shown in the episode, but they were seen in the outtake clip), then whatever grade of admiral he is has one stripe over and one stripe under the bar. With that kind of layout, I tend to think they probably wouldn't use half-stripes for admirals at all, and a reasonable extrapolation might be:

Commodore - bar
Rear Admiral - stripe bar
Vice Admiral - stripe bar stripe
Admiral - stripe stripe bar stripe
Fleet Admiral - either stripe stripe stripe bar stripe, or stripe stripe bar stripe stripe, depending on which actually looks better in practice!

That's certainly what we would call them in modern practice, however Vice Admirals are consistently "+3" not "+2" in Starfleet so I would suggest:

Commodore/"junior" Admiral - bar
Rear Admiral - stripe bar
Lieutenant Admiral - stripe bar stripe
Vice Admiral/Fleet Admiral - stripe stripe bar stripe
Admiral - stripe stripe bar stripe stripe (for symetry).

 

[Vger23]

Kirk is meant to be a Grand Poobah in TOS.

Discuss.

 

[J.T.B.]

What's doubtful? That there's more than one way to be operating alone, having adventures?

Doubtful that the stories told would change much depending on the rank of the captain character.