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Power systems in TOS

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(This is solely a TOS query I know about EPS in TNG+)

Other than the one line in TMP about the new phaser systems being linked to the warp drive, are there any references to the warp nacelles providing any power to ships systems in TOS ? I presume that the answer is no, and that ties in with my assumption of how the power systems in TOS work.
I presume that the warp nacelles just hold the antimatter and the warp coils and control equipment, and are held out away from the ship for safety. And that they just generate the warp drive field and nothing else. The only problem is the Dilithium crystals which since they (in TOS in some unexplained way) enable the MAM annihilation should be in the nacelles. I guess that given the Dilithium crystals scenes set in main engineering, some "handwaving" has to suffice there!
And so the impulse engines must supply both a sub relativistic drive (mostly sublight but supralight at great fuel expenditure ) and the power to ships systems?
All advice gratefully received.
 
Well, let's see;

In "The Doomsday Machine" Spock mentions the "energy generated by our power nacelles" but this is generally regarded as a reference to motive power or "power to make the ship go" in Pakledian terms.

Then there's "The Ultimate Computer" where M-5 draws "power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves" but it's unclear if this is a reference to the warp drive -and therefore the nacelles- or just some more general reference to the overall engine system.

As for Impulse, there may be a distinction between "impulse power" and "impulse engines" the latter being the propulsion method, either rocket or field propulsion, and the former may be power derived from the reactors or power plants to run other systems.
 
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It should be noted that in "Mudd's Women" already, the use of shields and transporters causes dilithium crystals to go pop, with direct repercussions on all the ship's power, from motive (they can't break out of Rigel orbit again) to life support.

Granted that there are nuances: they say "lithium" and they don't specifically mention warp as one of the systems directly affected by the lithium crystal shortage. But in the broader context, it seems that one and the same power loop can feed any and all systems, tying in resoures as diverse as the main power source and the "batteries" as needed.

Now, no doubt some of the systems in that master loop do fine on mere battery power (say, transporters) while others cannot be run at all without main power (say, warp, plus the TMP main phasers). But we never heard of a system that would be unable to receive and utilize warp power from the m/am annihilation setup. Perhaps there are several levels of "transformers" there between various power loops, but the chain ultimately connects to the warp core as well as to the batteries.

This might be unusual for a starship, and Kirk's vessel is especially robustly built for frontier use. Heck, perhaps she's even "multifuel" or at least can run on other types of lithium crystal besides the factory-standard dilithium found on those ping-pong paddles of "Alternative Factor" fame.

Timo Saloniemi
 
There is canon evidence the Enterprise can indeed run on an alternative dlithium source. Elaan's necklace is made of dilithium, and Spock and Scotty just kind of jigsaw them into the dilithium retention clamp and drop it into the flow. It wasn't pretty, or particularly efficient, but it worked.
 
Kirk using advanced Starfleet engineering techniques to repair the energy grid of the Enterprise.

Court_Martial_482.JPG
 
If you want a TOS query thoroughly answered then just come here!! Many thanks to all for totally destroying my assumptions (in the best possible way, of course). I was just trying to rationalise my copy of the playable FASA Enterprise deck plans for their STRPG. And I thought I had the power and engineering systems sussed.
Oh well, back to the drawing board!!
 
Star Fleet Battles, if I recall correctly, had multiple power sources.

1 Warp power directly from the nacelles. A ship could only travel at warp if the nacelles were not destroyed. Warp power could be redirected to other systems. Photon torpedoes could only be powered by warp nacelles. Photon torpedoes were not literal torpedoes with casings but balls of warp energy or anti matter.

2 Impulse engines provided power that could be redirected to other systems. Impulse propulsion was limited to 1 hex a turn

3 Other power systems included batteries and APR or auxiliary power reactors.

4 Each turn the player added the total power available from all those systems and allocated the power accordingly. Power was needed for movement, transporters, sensors, shields, etc...

5 Once phasers were charged they could hold their charge by means of phaser capacitors If a phaser was not fired, it maintained its charge until needed.

6 Photon torpedoes had to be fired if charged. If not, the energy was lost.

I mention this because early Franz Joseph works were based on his interpretation of Star Trek episodes.
 
Shawnster said:
Star Fleet Battles, if I recall correctly, had multiple power sources.

1 Warp power directly from the nacelles. A ship could only travel at warp if the nacelles were not destroyed. Warp power could be redirected to other systems. Photon torpedoes could only be powered by warp nacelles. Photon torpedoes were not literal torpedoes with casings but balls of warp energy or anti matter.

2 Impulse engines provided power that could be redirected to other systems. Impulse propulsion was limited to 1 hex a turn

3 Other power systems included batteries and APR or auxiliary power reactors.

4 Each turn the player added the total power available from all those systems and allocated the power accordingly. Power was needed for movement, transporters, sensors, shields, etc...

5 Once phasers were charged they could hold their charge by means of phaser capacitors If a phaser was not fired, it maintained its charge until needed.

6 Photon torpedoes had to be fired if charged. If not, the energy was lost.

I mention this because early Franz Joseph works were based on his interpretation of Star Trek episodes.
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That makes a lot of sense and certainly ties in with some of my assumptons surrounding weapons - phaser capacitors storing energy until needed and TOS photon torps being some sort of pure energy spheres not physical encased torpedoes.
I haven't played SFB since the mid 80's, but weren't shields also more in keeping with TOS. Being raised and then gradually knocked down by incoming fire. I can recall shield boxes around the outer edge of the SFB sheets for each ship.
 
From what I remember about FASA, it two had multiple power systems. The main was the warp drives, with power enough to power both nacelles for FTL travel, but that was usually also used for most of your combat systems, including in game movement. Impulse power was usually fairly weak, but some larger impulse decks could actually put out an impressive amount of power. Usually could only move the ship a little bit on its own. Plus there was emergency power that could be dumped from the battery into something once. But once used it would have to be reenergized before it could be used again. FASA didn't force the player to have to power life support every turn like SFB use to. Depending on if you were doing the RPG or the Starship Combat Simulator would give different options of complexity.
 
Dilithium crystals have a small amount of power in them, but they do not power the ship. They regulate the power, and without them they cannot control the matter/antimatter reaction, which is the main power source of the ship. The warp core is where this reaction takes place, and this energy is sent to the warp nacelles where the warp coils can make a warp bubble. Those nacelles are not a source of energy. The dilithium crystals are one of those off the current chart compounds that have a temporal, 4-D component to them, or other such things, IIRC, to do what they do, but it's a mistake to think they power the ship. Yet without them, you don't have access to the main power.

The warp core is not in the nacelles, but in the main body of the ship, probably along the longitudinal axis, but possibly perpendicular to that axis. I'm not sure, but you can see them dump the warp core on Voyager to get an idea, for it would be similar on TOS is they ever needed to do it.
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The impulse engines (at the back of the saucer section) are powered by nuclear fusion power plants. They move the ship at sublight speeds.
 
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JRTStarlight said:
Dilithium crystals have a small amount of power in them, but they do not power the ship. They regulate the power, and without them they cannot control the matter/antimatter reaction, which is the main power source of the ship. The warp core is where this reaction takes place, and this energy is sent to the warp nacelles where the warp coils can make a warp bubble. Those nacelles are not a source of energy. The dilithium crystals are one of those off the current chart compounds that have a temporal, 4-D component to them, or other such things, IIRC, to do what they do, but it's a mistake to think they power the ship. Yet without them, you don't have access to the main power.

The warp core is not in the nacelles, but in the main body of the ship, probably along the longitudinal axis, but possibly perpendicular to that axis. I'm not sure, but you can see them dump the warp core on Voyager to get an idea, for it would be similar on TOS is they ever needed to do it.
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The impulse engines (at the back of the saucer section) are powered by nuclear fusion power plants. They move the ship at sublight speeds.
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Good summary of the situation found in the TNG era certainly, but there's more than enough evidence from dialogue in TOS to indicate that in the 23rd Century the nacelles are actually the true source of power and that dilithium was used more as a conversion matrix to allow the energy released by the M/AM reaction to be harnessed by the rest of the ship's systems.
 
Memory Alpha says warp nacelles were also sometimes known as power nacelles, antimatter nacelles, warp drive pods, or space/warp propulsion units. I imagine you mean some TOS dialogue called them some of those terms, like power nacelles, and thus you concluded they were the source of power?

I'd have to review the particular TOS episode you have in mind to know for sure, but I can't recall any where they clearly stated the nacelles were the power source and not the antimatter/matter reaction, which was regulated by dilithium crystals, or claimed those crystals were in the nacelles or the M/AM reaction took place there. Those nacelles are just the housings for the engines, the warp coils, and the energy from the fuel (from the M/AM reaction in the warp core regulated by the dilithium crystals) is fed to them. Other normal engines might have the fuel directly fed to them, but as far as I know, that's not the case here.

But the whole of the science is sketchy, at best, and they barely mention anything like where they get their antimatter. They seem keen on deuterium, but that's matter, and I think they only use it so they can use anti deuterium, which is probably the easiest antimatter they can make, and the M/AM annihilation doesn't have a lot of leftover byproducts to clog the systems. I've often felt starships must orbit quite near a star collecting energy and converting that into matter and antimatter pairs and storing them for fuel later. It just takes a lot of time, so they normally pick up their antimatter fuel from starbases that doubtlessly have these production facilities and far more time to make it. It's during interstellar travel that they need this energy since the stars are few and far between and there's no refueling between star systems.
 
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Memory Alpha is a good starting point for research but it's far from the final word of authority on any matter, not least because the articles can be edited by anyone! So no, I have not used MA as a source to draw my conclusions from. My conclusions are from TOS itself.

The idea of a single, centralised reactor is certainly prevalent throughout TNG and could easily be argued to have been trialled in the "totally new" engine redesign in TMP. However, in TOS what little engineering dialogue there is is really only consistent with the nacelles functioning as originally envisioned by Matt Jefferies - that they are the main source of energy used by the ship. I will try and draw together some quotes for you later, but here is an earlier discussion on the matter:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-enterprise-wip.119751/page-12#post-4380476

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/location-of-tos-warp-core-equivalent.165655/page-3

JRTStarlight said:
...the antimatter/matter reaction, which was regulated by dilithium crystals... Those nacelles are just the housings for the engines, the warp coils, and the energy from the fuel (from the M/AM reaction in the warp core regulated by the dilithium crystals) is fed to them.
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Could you point me to where that setup is explicitly stated in any Trek episode? As far as I know it is only elaborated upon in secondary source materials, such as the technical manuals.

The 23rd Century setup continued into the 24th Century in some spacecraft, however, as in the case of the Runabout used in the TNG episode "Timescape" however, we have strong indications that the antimatter at least was stored directly in the nacelles:

LAFORGE: The starboard nacelle just cut out.
DATA: Attitude control has been restored.
PICARD: Full stop. What happened?
LAFORGE: The starboard antimatter pod is completely drained. The fuel reserves are empty.
PICARD: Is there a fuel containment leak?
LAFORGE: No, sir. The containment field is intact. all engine systems are operational. The fuel is just gone.
DATA: Geordi, I believe I have an explanation. According to the plasma conversion sensor, the starboard engine has been in continuous operation for forty seven days.
LAFORGE: Forty seven days? Nah. Let's check that sensor. It must be malfunctioning.
PICARD: I'll check the fuel consumption logs.
 
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