Picard, 'Yesterday's Enterprise' & polluting the timeline

[Guy Gardener]

If Picard admitted that his crew is from a different timeline, and their loyalty to the prime timeline was half assed, the Federation/Starfleet will fire them, and take their ship.

Or at least they should.

 

[DonIago]

How do we know that we were following a timeline in which Sela existed prior to the first episode in which we see her appear? We have no idea what events her existence may have influenced.

It's dubious to claim that a time travel event must have been a predestination paradox without any way of establishing that the post-event timeline really is identical to the pre-event timeline.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Well, I would presume it based on the idea that Picard and crew ended up in the same place, same spot, same dialogue, etc. I would argue that your point actually makes mine.

If she had a massive impact on the timeline, which would be likely, then things change. So the fact that we see them in the same spot tells me that this was the timeline all along, and it was a predestination paradox.

An example of a massive change in the timeline would be the Kelvin Timeline overriding the prime one.

 

[JesterFace]

You can see even more reasons above why I don't like timetravel episodes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sela specifically said that she was watching her mother, and stayed out of the way on purpose... Historical records on the Enterprise are the Historical records from whatever the timeline looked like before Garret came out of the Rift.

Compare and contrast.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Ironic that you would post that clip, I have always enjoyed that movie since its first run.

 

[DonIago]

If I'm up to snuff in my basic understanding of multiverse theory...

Because the rift is a two-way rift, it could be argued that the moment it exists, information is flowing into the past, which I believe indicates that an alternate timeline is being created. The problem is that as viewers we're still observing the present, not the past. I would postulate, then, that we observe three timelines in the course of the episode.

Timeline A: The timeline as we've understood it to exist. Yar is killed by an oil slick. There is no Sela in this timeline.

Timeline B: We jump tracks (I don't subscribe to timelines being 'created' or 'destroyed' but rather all existing simultaneously, but semantics, somewhat) to a timeline where the E-C has traveled into the future...or more importantly, the lack of an E-C has traveled into the past. At the end of the episode the E-C travels into the past...but as traveling into the past spawns a new timeline, this brings us to...

Timeline C: A timeline nearly indistinguishable from Timeline A...except that the Yar from Timeline B entered this timeline and consequently Sela exists. Technically there should be two E-Cs in this timeline, but it could be assumed that the E-C from this timeline also vanished into the vortex...perhaps it's the E-C that appeared in Timeline B, or perhaps it in turn moved into an unseen Timeline D.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I would argue this--

Timeline A--was always the timeline that Sela existed. Picard and crew never met her. Even at the end of the episode, they had no clue about Sela. They had no records of this alternate Yar. They had no clue. But I would argue that Timeline C is no different because if you insert someone new in a timeline, they affect a lot of people and things. There are NOT two Enterprise Cs. How we saw it, is how it always happened for the Picard and crew we knew all that time.

It was almost as if the E-C had to jump to the future and alter the timeline so that Sela could be born and entered into Timeline A.

But from the point of view of the PRIME universe, she always existed.

 

[DonIago]

Too bad nobody was checking quantum signatures...

 

[Ithekro]

Too bad nobody was checking quantum signatures...

But that would be temporal profiling, wouldn't it?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I would argue this--

Timeline A--was always the timeline that Sela existed. Picard and crew never met her. Even at the end of the episode, they had no clue about Sela. They had no records of this alternate Yar. They had no clue. But I would argue that Timeline C is no different because if you insert someone new in a timeline, they affect a lot of people and things. There are NOT two Enterprise Cs. How we saw it, is how it always happened for the Picard and crew we knew all that time.

It was almost as if the E-C had to jump to the future and alter the timeline so that Sela could be born and entered into Timeline A.

But from the point of view of the PRIME universe, she always existed.

This essentially makes Alternate Yar... wait for it... Savitar.
A time remnant.
She always existed in the main timeline but originated in the pocket timeline.
She created herself.
She is the Future Tash!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Indeed, everything that's occurred in the Prime timeline since the E-C incident is essentially occurring in a timeline altered by the 24th century events of YE.

You can't prove that the events of YE weren't part of history all along. A predestination paradox.

 

[DonIago]

No, I can't. We lack evidence to make a determination either way.

 

[velour]

You can see even more reasons above why I don't like timetravel episodes.

I hear you. I share your sentiment about time travel stories, although I have to say that I am glad that I dug back in time to find this interesting thread.

But, what's so precious about the timeline that it couldn't be messed around with.

I agree with you, for the most part, on this point as well. Unless someone is affected the way Kirk and the landing party were in "The City on the Edge of Forever" by being marooned in oblivion, why should a particular time line be considered sacrosanct?

Why should one time line be considered legitimate and another not so?

-----

What really bother me about "Yesterday's Enterprise" was Tasha's behavior. She asked Guinan what happened to her in the other time line. Guinan told Tasha that Tasha was not suppose to be "here". Essentially Guinan told Tasha that Tasha was illegitimate to be alive. At that point, imo, Tasha should have told Guinan to "F**k off". Instead, Tasha accepted everything Guinan told her and believed that she was undeserving of living any more.

If someone told you that you really shouldn't exist because someone messed with the time continuum, you might ignore them or tell them to get lost. Even if what that person told you may be true about someone messing with the time line, so what?

Tasha's behavior was not credible. Tasha's reality is the one in which she lived in. Why should it matter to her about her other self in the other time line? Why should she care what the woman in the stupid looking hat said? I don't believe people would behave the way Tasha did. It didn't make sense that Tasha would sacrifice herself to fulfill some abstract theory about time lines.

And what if in a different scenario, say, the Enterprise C by travelling into the future had prevented the Dominion war from ever happening and preventing all that destruction from happening, then would that be a good thing? Would it be moral for the Ent C to go back to where they originally came from and let the war happen?

 

[Xhiandra]

One thing to factor in Picard's decision process is that, from the moment the Entreprise C shows up, we're not dealing with the regular characters. They're all alternate versions of themselves who grew up in a very different reality and therefore, have different decision processes.

It was a clear mistake, though.

 

[JesterFace]

You can see even more reasons above why I don't like timetravel episodes.

Except 'All Good Things...', but that was a game played by Q.
Quoting myself here...

 

[Saul]

You can't prove that the events of YE weren't part of history all along. A predestination paradox.

Data's head was a predestination paradox. Sela did not exist in one timeline, events were clearly changed when the Enterprise C was sent back with Tasha onboard. The timeline was changed twice.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ How do you know that Sela didn't exist all along? Just because we never saw her before "The Mind's Eye" doesn't mean she wasn't around.

There is absolutely no proof that the timeline at the end of YE wasn't exactly the same one as existed at the beginning. The timeline was only changed once; at the end, everything was reset to the way it was before.

 

[DonIago]

I would say there's no conclusive evidence either way.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And again, we seem to be taking it on faith that Sela is who she says she is. I'm not sure we should be doing that. Assuming she is indeed Romulan...why should we believe a word she says?

 

[DonIago]

It would be easy enough for a DNA test to confirm that she's related to Tasha, and Sela wouldn't have any reason not to consent.