Age of Modern Astronauts vs. Military Personnel and How that Relates to Starship Personnel

[The Wormhole]

TOS-Movies had separate uniforms and rank insignia (and even different Federation insignia--the bronze Enterprise delta with a circle while the Officers had a bronze delta with the circle and the bar behind it). TNG (through Voy?) had enlisted ranks, but no unique uniforms, perhaps in an effort to promote equality.

True, there were separate uniforms for the enlisted in the TOS movies, but many people missed the point and thought they were meant to be cadet uniforms, to the extent that in Nemesis we see Tom Hardy dressed in one in the photo of him as Cadet Picard.

The 24th century uniforms made no real effort at enlisted insignia. The first real attempt is that silly single hollow pip O'Brien started wearing in his last few TNG appearances and the first few seasons of DS9. Eventually, that got replaced with a new rank pin that with chevrons, but they didn't create any of those for the other enlisted ranks. Indeed, most enlisted are simply represented by no rank insignia at all in the 24th century. Enterprise actually did create insignia for all the enlisted ranks when it started, though by the third season those were largely ignored except for whenever Mr. Daniels decided to wear his uniform on his visits as opposed to that silly stillsuit knock-off that represented his future wardrobe.

 

[SPCTRE]

True, there were separate uniforms for the enlisted in the TOS movies, but many people missed the point and thought they were meant to be cadet uniforms, to the extent that in Nemesis we see Tom Hardy dressed in one in the photo of him as Cadet Picard.

That's a fun detail, I hadn't noticed that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

To be fair, cadet and enlisted uniforms during the Monster Maroon era were identical. Only difference is the color of the sweater underneath:

Red = cadet
Dark blue = enlisted

 

[SPCTRE]

To be fair, cadet and enlisted uniforms during the Monster Maroon era were identical. Only difference is the color of the sweater underneath:

Red = cadet
Dark blue = enlisted

are you implying the error was... forgivable?! what kind of Star Trek fan are you?!

 

[psCargile]

I'd kinda think they'd want people in their prime, even in modern times. I know our astronauts are in top shape for their ages, but you'd think that it would be even more desirable to have people in their early to mid-twenties.

Modern astronauts need experience to handle contingencies. You need a lot of flight hours to know how to deal with problems that crop up, and they do. Mission specialists astronauts, are a bit different in that they aren't as always prior military, but they still need the experience of working in their fields. It's more about knowledge base and experience than physical fitness.

 

[Sibyl]

This is the Enlisted uniform during the Monster Maroon era. Red, as with the Monster Maroons for Officers, means cadet.

 

[Prax]

Astronaut means "space sailor"

 

[Sibyl]

Why was my image edited for hotlinking? It's NOT hotlinked. I own scif.zone.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Why was my image edited for hotlinking? It's NOT hotlinked. I own scif.zone.

You might want to put something in your signature or profile page then. How am I supposed to know that?

 

[Sibyl]

It's a domain that I use to host images, basically. I don't advertise it.

I don't mean to be contrary, but what made you think it was hotlinked to begin with?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I don't mean to be contrary, but what made you think it was hotlinked to begin with?

The question is, what's to make me think it's not hotlinked? It's not a recognized image-hosting service like Photobucket. If somebody doesn't happen to know that's your site, then it looks like you're hotlinking from an outside site, as people sometimes do from the likes of Ex Astris Scientia, Trek Core, and various wikis.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/rules-for-posting-on-trekbbs.282289/#post-12059207

I also found a more detailed description of the hotlinking issue here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/trek-art-faq-please-read-before-posting.27742/

Further comments to PM.

 

[UssGlenn]

Red, as with the Monster Maroons for Officers, means cadet.

Since enlisted cadets are a contradiction in terms, anybody wearing a red collar must be on their way to becoming an officer. So when do they wear enlisted style uniforms vs marooms like Savvik? She is both a cadet and a lieutenant (command school?). Perhaps that's the difference, cadets with commissions wear to monster Maroons.

 

[Sibyl]

Forgive my lack of real-world military knowledge, but I believe you're right. The Enlisted people with red collars are trainees, not cadets.

 

[The Wormhole]

They still screwed up with the Cadet Picard photo anyway since he was wearing black collar.

 

[Timo]

When all's said and done, there's very little evidence that the red collar would indicate any sort of pupil status. Sure, some people studying to become Starfleet personnel wear it. But people who are not doing that (Valeris, say) do it, too. And people who do go to school (Picard, say) do not.

For all we know and care, red is still the color for Engineering in ST2 through 6, just as it was in TOS and TMP. It's just that Scotty teaches an Engineering class in ST2, and that's what Saavik and the rest of the tunic folks are majoring in, too (even though they are all postgrad and the jumpsuit people are still doing basic studies, academic or otherwise).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sibyl]

Whatever it was turned into or what was later ignored, the original intent was that red signified cadet or trainee. What the later movies and TV shows did with it, well, that's another thing.

 

[Timo]

Hardly "original intent" - the ST2 scheme merely perverted the scheme devised for TMP by depriving Engineering of a color so that the Academy folks could have something special to wear. This never worked too well...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sibyl]

Robert Fletcher was brought on for TMP by Wise to design the uniforms. He was also commissioned to redesign Starfleet Uniforms for TWOK, including the design of the uniforms, division colors, and uniform pins (including rank pins and the Delta with the Bar). I have his TWOK uniform notes around here, somewhere, but I'm not exactly sure where, or I could cite them.

Some of the division colors changed from TMP to TWOK. I can't remember if it was red or orange for Engineering in TMP, but it was changed to Mustard in TWOK.

What was done after his work on TWOK was not necessarily "original intent", however, what I've said above stands, even if my terminology is off.

 

[Sibyl]

Adding to my last post, it was Leonard Nimoy that was the first one to screw it up on the very first outing after TWOK.

In the lounge in Spacedock, we see Grace Lee Whitney wearing an officer's uniform. Rand was not an officer, though it's been said that, while it was Grace Lee Whitney, it may not have been Rand. However, given the character's disapproving look and shaking her head at the sight of the battle-damaged Enterprise, I'm thinking that it was supposed to be Rand.

 

[The Wormhole]

In the lounge in Spacedock, we see Grace Lee Whitney wearing an officer's uniform. Rand was not an officer, though it's been said that, while it was Grace Lee Whitney, it may not have been Rand. However, given the character's disapproving look and shaking her head at the sight of the battle-damaged Enterprise, I'm thinking that it was supposed to be Rand.

That was totally Rand. And regardless, Rand was eventually retconned as an officer in TUC.