WB's Justice League 2017 movie pre-discussion thread

[dahj]

I'm sorry, dodge

I'm not.

One can make theories and speculations similar to JacksonArcher's(in fact many have) without invoking a personal tragedy to shore up your point or to prove one's "cred" with insider sources.

Others have politely tried to explain to JacksonArcher why this particular line of argumentation is insensitive and disrespectful, only to have him entrench even deeper and do more of the same.

I have no such patience.

 

[theenglish]

But Dodge, if JA is correct then what does that say about the studio? Certainly more than it says about Snyder.

 

[Starscream2112]

I wonder if the new scenes being shot are to squeeze in Batgirl's origin story.

 

[theenglish]

Has Alan Moore ever stated that Barbara was raped in The Killing Joke? I know that's what a lot of people inferred but I re read it recently and am left thinking that it is very ambiguous. I would much prefer a version where she is just shot--which I always thought happened until the internet came along--because that is horrific enough.

 

[JD]

Yeah, it's ambiguous, but thinking about the motivation behind it, it seems unlikely to me. The whole point of the incident was to screw with her father, which I do agree is the biggest problem with the whole thing, but that's besides the point, and raping Babs would be more about her then him, so I don't think he did.
As for what @JacksonArcher is saying, now that I understand what he was saying better, I could kind of see where it's possible. Yeah, it's kind of a shitty move to take but I could see where they could decide to just let him leave if they weren't happy with what was going on with the movie. If they were happy with what he was doing they could have just delayed it to let him finish it himself once he was able to.

 

[theenglish]

Yeah, it's ambiguous, but thinking about the motivation behind it, it seems unlikely to me. The whole point of the incident was to screw with her father, which I do agree is the biggest problem with the whole thing, but that's besides the point, and raping Babs would be more about her then him, so I don't think he did.
As for what @JacksonArcher is saying, now that I understand what he was saying better, I could kind of see where it's possible. Yeah, it's kind of a shitty move to take but I could see where they could decide to just let him leave if they weren't happy with what was going on with the movie. If they were happy with what he was doing they could have just delayed it to let him finish it himself once he was able to.

Thinking back, the old Birds of Prey series implied the Joker shot her and nothing more. The original story was not about her at all--she was a victim like many victims in crime series. I think the controversy about this was generated in later years in terms of how DC writers chose to handle it.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because of the Batgirl movie. I'm curious as to whether or not TKJ will be part of that movie or if it will just be ignored.

 

[JD]

It's hard to say, if they want to start with her just starting out as Batgirl then I would say no, but I could also see them going the route of the current comics and jumping in with her returning to the suit after regaining the use of her legs. The more I think about it, the more likely the second option seems, if Batman has been around for decades and had at least one Robin, then there's a pretty good chance other Batfamily members have probably been around for a while too.

 

[dahj]

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because of the Batgirl movie. I'm curious as to whether or not TKJ will be part of that movie or if it will just be ignored.

Reportedly, the movie will be taking cue from the New52 run of Batgirl, which was in large part focused on her dealing with PTSD from the events of TKJ. So I don't think it will be ignored, but I also don't think anything from the TKJ will actually be in the movie, other than maybe a short flashback of Barbara being shot.

 

[kirk55555]

If they use anything from TKJ, I at least hope they write it so Barbara was just shot, not paralyzed. I much prefer Barbara as Oracle, but the New 52 explanation of "She can walk again because...We need her to, so shut up and give us your money" was beyond idiotic. Having her get shot, retire from being Batgirl, deal with PTSD and then (presumably) return to being a hero is a way to make TKJ-ish events work without having to pretend that a spine shattering injury just heals on its own.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Has Alan Moore ever stated that Barbara was raped in The Killing Joke? I know that's what a lot of people inferred but I re read it recently and am left thinking that it is very ambiguous. I would much prefer a version where she is just shot--which I always thought happened until the internet came along--because that is horrific enough.

It's never been implied that Joker raped Barbara. Only fans who took what happened in the book out of context and projected their own interpretation of what happened off panel. Mind you, Babs was shot, undressed and had naked photos of herself taken by someone. That right there was a violation/sexual assault. But did the Joker drop his trousers and sexually assault her in that way? No.

The controversy with the fandom and the writers at DC over this book stems from it's continued reference into the canon. It was a one off, elseworlds book, but people liked it so much and Post-COIE, Batgirl hadn't made an appearance, so writers just ran with it and continued to run with it. It could've been ignored but that's too much like right.

It's not a necessary story for Babs. She can be crippled a number of other ways, if they eventually want to do the Oracle story.

 

[Dream]

No one wants to see Batgirl shot and paralyzed on screen. Something so horrific won't fly especially with so many children watching who might consider Batgirl to be role model. What works in the comics is going to piss off everyone watching the movie, especially the women groups.

The original comic story was sexist as hell, crippling Barbara wasn't even about HER just showing off James Gordon's man pain.

 

[kirk55555]

No one wants to see Batgirl shot and paralyzed on screen. Something so horrific won't fly especially with so many children watching who might consider Batgirl to be role model. What works in the comics is going to piss off everyone watching the movie, especially the women groups.

The original comic story was sexist as hell, crippling Barbara wasn't even about HER just showing off James Gordon's man pain.

Yeah. While Barbara becoming Oracle was a brilliant way to save the character, and I'd argue she was much better as Oracle then she was as Batgirl, TKJ is a bad story and Oracle was created by writers trying to do something good with barbara after TKJ just used her for story motivation and then threw her away.

 

[DigificWriter]

No one wants to see Batgirl shot and paralyzed on screen.

Speak for yourself.

Something so horrific won't fly especially with so many children watching who might consider Batgirl to be role model.

Children are exposed to far worse things in TV and film all the time.

And showing that Barbara gets hurt and yet continues to fight in a different way would actually be very inspiring.

What works in the comics is going to piss off everyone watching the movie, especially the women groups.

It's not Joss' problem if people were to take offense at the basic concepts upon which TKJ's narrative hinges simply because he chose to explore said concepts.

The original comic story was sexist as hell, crippling Barbara wasn't even about HER just showing off James Gordon's man pain.

As with anything else, "execution is key", but I personally don't see Joss, at this stage of his life and career and with everything he's learned from the few missteps he's made, executing the story in a fashion that would intentionally invite outrage or 'Solomon's Barbara's character.

 

[Christopher]

It's not Joss' problem if people were to take offense at the basic concepts upon which TKJ's narrative hinges simply because he chose to explore said concepts.

"It's not my problem if others take offense" is an antisocial attitude. Do you feel you're entitled to go through life recklessly, stepping on people's feet, shoving them aside, driving over their gardens, stealing their food, just generally not caring if you hurt them because it's "not your problem" that they have feelings? It's a basic part of being a member of civilization to listen to other people, to try to be sensitive to their concerns, to recognize that your right to swing your fist ends at the points of their noses. Yes, sometimes you can conclude that they're misunderstanding or overreacting and that you haven't done anything wrong, but it's selfish and immature to assume that's always, automatically the case, because a lot of the time it'll turn out that they have legitimate reason to feel wronged. You should at least consider other people's points of view, rather than defaulting to the assumption that you're entitled to disregard them.

Given that Joss Whedon is a lifelong feminist, your premise that he would just glibly ignore the feminist objections to how Barbara was treated in The Killing Joke is laughable. It's also naive to say that TKJ's narrative hinges on what happened to Barbara. Barbara is an afterthought in TKJ. She's merely there as a plot device in a story that isn't about her at all, which is exactly the problem.

 

[theenglish]

I agree, but it would be very interesting to see a version of TKJ narrative from Barbara's perspective. Perhaps something more akin to Batman's recovery after being hurt by Bane. Or as an introduction to her movie to show how her character is defined by the incident. There is certainly a lot of solid room for narrative in a Batgirl movie.

 

[Christopher]

I'd be happy to have a version of Batgirl without TKJ in her past at all. The only good thing to come out of that was Oracle, and if she's going to be Batgirl rather than Oracle, then there's really no point. What I want to see is less Killing Joke, more Batgirl of Burnside.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Christopher The point I was trying to make is that I don't believe that Joss' narrative choices, if he were to in fact utilize the basic narrative concepts of TKJ, should or would be dictated or shaped by the potential of people taking offense to the very idea of him utilizing said concepts.

IOW, the notion that people might be offended by the use of the basic narrative ideas of TKJ shouldn't stop the Batgirl film from hinging its narrative on said concepts as a part of Barbara's backstory, as was done with her first New 52 arc.

Maybe I inartfully communicated this with my glib "It's not his fault" comment, but my broader point is still sound.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Instead, Zack stayed on and Geoff Johns and John Berg were promoted to executive producers on the DC films.

I think the Johns influences really stands out in the WW movie. Much of her arc was informed or guided by his ideas about WW and the starting place and her reaction to modernity matches imo what we see in his run on Justice League not to mention Heinberg geting the job to write WW in the first place.

 

[dahj]

I'd be happy to have a version of Batgirl without TKJ in her past at all. The only good thing to come out of that was Oracle, and if she's going to be Batgirl rather than Oracle, then there's really no point. What I want to see is less Killing Joke, more Batgirl of Burnside.

I think everyone would like the Batgirl movie to be about Batgirl, and not Batman/Joker
If you're talking about tone, I'd prefer a middle ground between those two.

I've always loved that Barbara became a hero not because something that suddenly gave her powers or something tragic that happened to her, but simply because it's the right thing to do, and I'd really like that the movie reflect that and be more upbeat.

As far as TKJ, it did treat her character horribly, but Oracle came out of that, which was great, and I wouldn't say that her post-Oracle run was without merit. Violence against women is unfortunately still a huge problem in today's society and having a hero deal with the effects of PTSD and survivor's guilt was an important moment, even if the book was a bit too grim at times.

Batgirl of Burnside is kinda eh... I like some of the ideas behind it, making it more fun and aimed at girls, but the execution has been a bit off. It has a greatly diverse cast of side characters, who unfortunately aren't that interesting and the whole social media angle of it just seems like they're trying too hard to be hip or trendy, or maybe I'm just getting too old for whatever kids like these days.

Love the suit though, they should definitely use that suit.

 

[Christopher]

I've always loved that Barbara became a hero not because something that suddenly gave her powers or something tragic that happened to her, but simply because it's the right thing to do, and I'd really like that the movie reflect that and be more upbeat.

That's actually what worries me about Whedon's approach. I saw an interview where he said that what interested him about Batgirl was exploring what "her damage" was that made her want to be like Batman. That's missing the point. The essence of Batgirl is that she chose to do it without being driven by any damage, that it was just the right thing to do. She didn't do it because there was something wrong with her, but because there was something right about Batman. We dwell so much in recent decades on how screwed-up and miserable Batman is, or even see him as mentally ill, but that's missing the whole point -- that he took a terrible tragedy and turned it into something positive, a motivation to help others and make things better. We see that in Robin, who went through the same formative tragedy as Batman but whom Batman helped become a happier, healthier person than he was. And we see it in Batgirl, who sees what Batman does as something that's simply good and worth emulating. Robin and Batgirl legitimize what Batman does.

I wouldn't say that her post-Oracle run was without merit.

Certainly not, but that doesn't mean a new interpretation of the character is required to draw on that whole complicated backstory. That's the value of an adaptation -- it can be a fresh start, drawing on only the best parts, distilling things down to the basics.

Batgirl of Burnside is kinda eh... I like some of the ideas behind it, making it more fun and aimed at girls, but the execution has been a bit off. It has a greatly diverse cast of side characters, who unfortunately aren't that interesting and the whole social media angle of it just seems like they're trying too hard to be hip or trendy, or maybe I'm just getting too old for whatever kids like these days.

Again, the adaptation doesn't have to approach the specifics in the same way the original did. That's the whole reason for doing a new version in the first place.

Love the suit though, they should definitely use that suit.

Yeah, it's a nice, practical design.