Transwarp and Warp 10, what's the different, and which is faster

[Crazy Eddie]

Canonically, warp ten is infinite velocity. See "Threshold." Warp ten having infinite velocity is part of the literal premise of the episode.

The word "infinity" is present in the episode, as is the word "evolution," but the way both of those words are used, the premise of the episode is far from "literal."

Of course, this is "Threshhold" we're talking about... it is the well studied "Exhibit A" for "Why you should never take Voyager technobabble seriously."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The word "infinity" is present in the episode, as is the word "evolution," but the way both of those words are used, the premise of the episode is far from "literal."

Of course, this is "Threshhold" we're talking about... it is the well studied "Exhibit A" for "Why you should never take Voyager technobabble seriously."

"Threshold" is fiction, just like every other Star Trek episode. There's no sliding scale here; all episodes are equally fictitious.

Anyway, my point stands: canonically, warp ten is infinite velocity.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Threshold" is fiction, just like every other Star Trek episode. There's no sliding scale here; all episodes are equally fictitious.

Anyway, my point stands: canonically, warp ten is infinite velocity.

Canonically, Voyager establishes infinite speed as "very very fast" as Neelix puts it, but also establishes infinite speed as "being consciously everywhere at once" as if that concept makes any sense at all.

Anyway, my point stands: "infinite speed" is effectively a colloquialism in "Threshhold" since the concept of what "infinite speed" describes never actually appears in the episode (and neither does "evolution"). Therefore "Threshhold" can be ignored as the unimportant gibberish that it is.

 

[Arpy]

Can we talk for a moment about how astonishingly wrong all of that in the quote is? It should have been the background technical jargon in an absurdist comedy episode.

For one thing, even if occupying all points in the universe simultaneously were possible, the Federation is nowhere near that level of technology. That's like my six year old nephew playing mad scientist in the garage and coming up with warp because he really really wants to. Or, rather, something impossible, like a perpetual motion machine. Without even the MacGuyver chewing gum, tin foil, and rubber bands.

Then it suggests that evolution has nothing to do with reproduction or environment, but is actually some placeholder for a magical code that we're just waiting to work through.

And that being thrown around really really fast triggers it.

On top of which, the end result of it is returning to a stupid, bouncy, amphibious state of a salamander.

 

[Arpy]

^^ Infinite speed DOES appear in the episode. Warp 10 IS defined in the episode. I'd be glad to ignore it, but it is what it is. Your interpretation "stands" as your interpretation.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes, "Threshold" is indeed the "Spock's Brain" of VOY, but when it comes to canonical discussion of warp ten, options are limited.

No, warp 10 is not infinite speed. Warp 10 is a speed that (according to the TNG manual) requires infinite energy.

Now that I can take out my TNG Tech Manual, I can turn to page 55, wherein it says at the bottom of the page, quite clearly:

Our solution was to redraw the warp curve so that the exponent of the warp factor increases gradually, then sharply as you approach Warp 10. At Warp 10, the exponent (and the speed) would be infinite, so you could never reach this value.​

So, that's the TNG Tech Manual contradicting your assertions, as well: the TNG Tech Manual says unambiguously that warp ten means infinite speed.

 

[Sgt_G]

Right. That's been the argument ever since that blinking book came out. But it's wrong.

A good friend of mine spoke to the guy who created the chart and was told that the editor made the last-minute change to the text without checking with him. As far as he's concerned, the chart is right and the text is completely wrong. There is no mathematical reason for Warp 10 = Infinity. Even Buzz Lightyear understands that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Fine, turn to page 56, where it says:

an object at Warp 10 would be travelling infinitely fast, occupying all points in the universe simultaneously.​

That's in an entirely different subsection, and it's main text, not in the note under the chart.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The irony is that the TNG Tech Manual really made a case for Warp 10 being impossible, regardless of whatever new engine or energy source was developed in the future. Even if you developed an engine that could take a ship across the entire Universe in only a second, it'd still be slower than Warp 10.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

The problem with Warp 10 is that it is literally suppose to be infinite speed, to the point where the ship doing it occupies all space in the universe at once.

Transwarp is just really really fast, but using either a method beyond Federation science, or some new super science to achieve speeds faster than the present warp limits....which is somewhere around Warp 9.99 or something. The warp curve climbing so steeply at that point that you are going around a speed of around 10,000 times the speed of light, and climbing. Transwarp would could be doing 100,000 times the speed of light and still not hit Warp 10.

Thus eventually Starfleet will need to redo the warp scale to skip Warp 10 so they don't have to try to get the ship up to Warp 9.99999999975 to get someplace within the next hour. They could be going Warp 13 or something instead....which would be maybe the same speed, but easier to say when giving orders. "Warp 10" would still be infinity speed and "not possible"...even though it happened....badly is a bad episode. With evolved human-newt babies and all that.

How about transwrap make wormhole for a greater space curve of distance and wrap drive doesn't have use of wormhole but with wrap in balance a wormhole likeness happen to Enterprise. And please remember wrap driver scale do change TNG Wrap 5 is about the same as TOS 11 or 14 wrap speed when they get near wrap 10 they recalibrate the scale for wrap

 

[Ithekro]

The recalibration could have happened at any point really, since warp speed seems, frankly, inconsistent past TMP. It could have ben done as a result of the Enterprise's new warp engine, even though it was intercepting V'Ger at warp 7. Mr. Scott's statement about getting Mr. Spock back to Vulcan in four days can be taken in two ways. The way t was generally taken for decades was that it represented Enterprise's top speed of Warp 12 and they could somehow hold that for four days to get from Earth to Vulcan on the old TOS scale (roughly 16 light years in four days). The other way to read it is as an apology to Spock, saying the proper shakedown and travel time would take four days. This would mean the scale has already been changed just after TOS ended in universe.

The next possible change would be due to USS Excelsior, which was suppose to break USS Enterprise' speed records with her new transwarp drive. This I think tells us that up to this point the fastest starship in the fleet up to this point has been USS Enterprise, and that could have been her old forced acceleration to warp factor 14.1 before they managed to save the ship, or it could have been however fast Enterprise could go with her newer refit engines. We assume her speed is due to Mr. Scott's wizardry, mixed with Mr. Spock's knowledge and potentially Kirk's insistence they get somewhere. Scott being assigned to Excelsior may have been so they could squeeze everything they could out of the new engines, despite Mr. Scott not being all that impressed by the idea of transwarp drive.

After that is could have been any time in the early 24th century. Janeways's comment about the era of Kirk and Sulu's ships being half as fast as USS Voyager is partly true. Voyager can sustain high speeds safely compared to USS Enterprise in the 2260s and probably even the "A" or Excelsior in the 2290s. But all things being equal with the two warp scales, USS Enterprise's guessed record of Warp Factor 14.1 (TOS scale) is just under Warp 9.9 on the TNG scale. Warp 9.975 is about twice that fast, but that is basically just the Intrepid-class starships. The likes of the Galaxy-class are operating below Warp 9.6 TNG most of the time, which is below Warp Factor 12 TOS scale. Which technically means the refit USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) could sustain a higher speed than the Galaxy-class for eight times as long as the likely of USS Galaxy are rated for (12 hours at Warp 9.6 while Enterprise could reach Vulcan in four days at TOS Warp Factor 12).

 

[tharpdevenport]

So, warp 10 is only a theory (impossible to achieve), while Transwarp is a speed above warp? A bit confusing.

Not really. By the way, I'd plead guilty now to not reading the rest of the thread, so if it's already answered...

Warp ten is a theory that was supposed to be impossible to achieve (until Tom did it and has lizard babies with Janeway, but that's a whole other story) and theoretically, at that speed -- as I recall by series dialogue -- you'd be occupying every point in the universe simultaneously.

Transwarp, like slipstream drive or any other fanciful drive faster than warp, is merely moving increments on the warp scale within warp nine. When you go from warp one to warp one, you aren't moving twice as fast; there's a warp chart that shows how much faster you go. And the higher you go in the chart, the faster and faster you go, an upward curve, so even going from warp 9.995 to warp 9.996 is a big increase.

Somebody correct me if wrong, but the general top warp speed in the TOS films up to TSfS, was not that of the general top warp speed of TNG, so transwarp had it's benefits immediately, if it had worked.

 

[Brainsucker]

Thanks for the discussion. I just thinking. Warp factor is basically a measurement of speed that created by human or other species on Star Trek (in universe explanation). It is the same as our current measurement of speed like km/hour, miles/hour, etc. So why do we make an infinite speed at warp factor 10 and not warp factor 100? It just like that we (the in universe scientists) make it hard for themselves.

It is the same as if we decided to consider 100 miles / hour as an infinite speed that impossible to achieve. So all speed that beyond the current RL 100 miles / hour as below the 100 miles / hour. Maybe 99.999999999999 miles / hour. Wouldn't it just make it difficult to ourselves if it happen to be that way?

I think TOS measure of Warp factor is more rational than how TNG measure the Warp Factor. Warp is only a measurement of light speed. It is human who decide how fast is Warp factor 10. So infinite speed can be marked as warp factor 10, warp factor 100, or even warp factor 1. It's all depend on us.

So why warp factor 10 have to be infinite, and impossible to achieve?

I watched the Voy epsideo Threshold. And I think capt Jeanaway and her crews are all idiot!!!! That warp factor 10 shuttle was a success experiment. It can go at warp factor 10 (that basically has infinite speed that can reach everywhere in this universe in an instant).

So what if it's dangerous for human? It can always go to Federation space in an instant without any human inside it. Just send it back to federation space without any human or Vulcan or others inside it. Use it to bring message to the Federation about their condition.

Or, they can just move at warp factor 10 to the Federation space with Voyager. Why do they have to care about evolve to reptiles. The doctor can turn them back to human in an instant. Look at Janeaway and Paris? They turn back into human aren't they? So the experiment was a success. They could finish their mission after that episode. But they didn't. So they're idiot.

 

[Ithekro]

I am under the impression that they hadn't figured out how to control their warp 10 shuttlecraft's exit point yet. Sure they could occupy every point in the universe at once, but they couldn't exit it effectively. Paris said something to that effect when he arrived back the first time. The second time it is unclear how it worked because Paris was definitely not himself anymore and Janeway wasn't driving to our knowledge. Paris said something about thinking or focusing on Voyager, but it is unclear how that worked. It is possible that the shuttle's computers would not be able to bring the ship out of warp near Federation space due to this problem. It way also be the case if they tried to fly Voyager to the Federation. The ship might not have been flyable at warp 10 to a specific location. Also it is unclear how much time passed for Paris and Janeway during the last flight as they hyper-evolved and had babies by the time Voyager caught up with them.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Warp factor is basically a measurement of speed that created by human or other species on Star Trek (in universe explanation). It is the same as our current measurement of speed like km/hour, miles/hour, etc. So why do we make an infinite speed at warp factor 10 and not warp factor 100? It just like that we (the in universe scientists) make it hard for themselves.

Because as the chart works, when you reach warp ten, you've reached infinite speed; the amount of time and distance traveled becomes everything (for lack of a better descriptive phrase).

Warp chart:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Warp_factor

It is the same as if we decided to consider 100 miles / hour as an infinite speed that impossible to achieve.

No, as pointed out, it's distance covered and speed. Imagine you had a speed chart where Speed 99999.9 took you across the Earth and back to where you started in something like 0.00001 seconds. Then you reach Speed 10 and you literally arrive at the same second you left, effectively never leaving, you moved so fast. This could probably be described better by somebody else.

I think TOS measure of Warp factor is more rational than how TNG measure the Warp Factor. Warp is only a measurement of light speed. It is human who decide how fast is Warp factor 10.

Nah, TNG nearly cleared it up and made it better for factoring warp speeds.

So infinite speed can be marked as warp factor 10, warp factor 100, or even warp factor 1. It's all depend on us.

But at that point you're not arguing one can go faster, since you're already at infinite speed, you're just arguing over the number assigned to it, so it's rather meaningless.

So why warp factor 10 have to be infinite, and impossible to achieve?

Trek is like real life -- not everything is possible, even in the 24th century there are things they struggle to achieve, plus it would suck as a viewer if you could just go anywhere instantly. Not only does that remove drama and interactions in-between, but it eliminates pointless fun warp chases.

But it doesn't make the speed impossible. I'm sure somewhere down the line in 25th century, they can go infinite speed. But it's really not needed. You can get so close to infinite speed in factors of upper warp nine, that you're basically only wasting hours if not days instead of an instant.

I watched the Voy epsideo Threshold. And I think capt Jeanaway and her crews are all idiot!!!! That warp factor 10 shuttle was a success experiment. It can go at warp factor 10 (that basically has infinite speed that can reach everywhere in this universe in an instant).

So what if it's dangerous for human? It can always go to Federation space in an instant without any human inside it. Just send it back to federation space without any human or Vulcan or others inside it. Use it to bring message to the Federation about their condition.

Or, they can just move at warp factor 10 to the Federation space with Voyager. Why do they have to care about evolve to reptiles. The doctor can turn them back to human in an instant. Look at Janeaway and Paris? They turn back into human aren't they? So the experiment was a success. They could finish their mission after that episode. But they didn't. So they're idiot.

Because Janeway liked to torture her crew. It's a proven fact. ;-)

And the writers hated us just as much.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Regarding the use of numbers to designate infinities, the tangent (trig function) of 90 degrees is infinite (more precisely, it is positive infinity in the limit approached from below). Tangent equals sine divided by cosine, and the cosine of 90 degrees equals zero. Thinking of warp ten as a designation for infinite velocity is mathematically no more complicated than that fairly basic sort of thing that happens all of the time in math.

 

[Johnny7oak]

A subspace field generated around a small device, with two subspace emitters on either side... when paired with a network of such devices... when signaled remotely would turn on allowing this subspace tunnel to allow passage across the sector. It may not be trans-warp... but an accuracies could be developed in efficiency and increased effectiveness in routing subspace satellites and sub-light star-voyages could use your near light impulse engines to travel the galaxy in subspace.

 

[psCargile]

Obviously, transwarp 10 is the fastest.

 

[Go-Captain]

Canonically, Voyager establishes infinite speed as "very very fast" as Neelix puts it, but also establishes infinite speed as "being consciously everywhere at once" as if that concept makes any sense at all.

Anyway, my point stands: "infinite speed" is effectively a colloquialism in "Threshhold" since the concept of what "infinite speed" describes never actually appears in the episode (and neither does "evolution"). Therefore "Threshhold" can be ignored as the unimportant gibberish that it is.

Realistically it would mean an upper limit which can always be pushed further, thus no limit. So, infinite speed would be any speed you want, but you still have a place, a direction, and a number applied to your speed because you are not moving at all speeds at once. It also does not mean instant acceleration, it could, but that was not described. That should leave coaxial warp drive as faster because it is a form of instantaneous teleportation like through a wormhole like in Interstellar as apposed to DS9. Also, over short distances transwarp might be faster assuming it has better acceleration, which it may very well not.

 

[Ithekro]

Obviously, transwarp 10 is the fastest.

Obviously.

Infinity to the infinite power was always where it was at. Why settle for being at every point in the universe when you can be at every point in the multiverse and at all points in time. Even Q can't quite handle that much raw speed.