Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

[Gojira]

Although I personally believe in the broad concept of "Personal Canon"/Fanon, there IS a point when said concept becomes a 'crutch' that can't be justified, particularly if/when it runs entirely contrary to both factual evidence AND logic.

I agree to some point. Well, I wouldn't go so far as calling it a crutch, it's all in fun, and how would it be a crutch? but yeah there are some things that are irreconcilable. Can you give me an example of where a personal continuity runs contrary to logic?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sure, but you dont have to be a professional writer to imagine a different version of events. It is just as much a retcon. It is an unpublished/ unaired retcon, but how does that make it not a retcon?

"Stuff I dont like" applies to pro writers too. It is probably why they wanted to retcon or reimagine in the first place.

Because it's unpublished/ unaired. If a professional's idea doesn't make it to the screen or page, it doesn't count. So why should some fan's? It's not a retcon if it has no actual impact on the property.
Pro writers get paid to change things. Even then they have to answer to producers.

 

[DigificWriter]

I agree to some point. Well, I wouldn't go so far as calling it a crutch, it's all in fun, and how would it. E a crutch? but yeah there are some things that are irreconcilable. Can you give me an example of where a personal continuity runs contrary to logic?

There's no such thing as "personal continuity", as the proper/correct terms are Personal Canon or Fanon.

As far as providing an example of an instance in which Personal Canon/Fanon runs contrary to logic and factual evidence goes, you yourself have provided such an example with your insistence that Enterprise takes place in the Kelvin Timeline.

 

[Tarek71]

Because it's unpublished/ unaired. If a professional's idea doesn't make it to the screen or page, it doesn't count. So why should some fan's? It's not a retcon if it has no actual impact on the property.
Pro writers get paid to change things. Even then they have to answer to producers.

An unpublished script that reimagines the Star Trek universe (or Whoverse or Wars, etc.) is a reimagination. That it was not green lighted for production by TPTB does not mean it is not a reimagination. You need the job title and the green light for your reimagination to make it on screen or to be published, but you don't need it for your work to count as a reimagination. It was a change to things because you changed things. Your changes not making it to production do not mean they were not changes to it.

Both fans and writers can speculate, retcon and reimagine. Knock around ideas about how you might Star Wars or Dr Who. They may never see the light of day, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing it.

 

[Tarek71]

[Inigo Montoya voice]You keep using that word.* I do not think it means what you think it means.[/Inigo Montoya voice]

* Retcon

It does indeed mean what I think it means! I think we have some folks who confuse "retcon" with "published/aired retcon". Unofficial, speculative retcons are indeed retcons.

 

[DigificWriter]

An unpublished script that reimagines the Star Trek universe (or Whoverse or Wars, etc.) is a reimagination. That it was not green lighted for production by TPTB does not mean it is not a reimagination. You need the job title and the green light for your reimagination to make it on screen or to be published, but you don't need it for your work to count as a reimagination. It was a change to things because you changed things. Your changes not making it to production do not mean they were not changes to it.

Both fans and writers can speculate, retcon and reimagine. Knock around ideas about how you might Star Wars or Dr Who. They may never see the light of day, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing it.

A reimagining of something that doesn't have professional "weight" of any kind behind it is called Fanfiction, even if it's also claimed as Personal Canon, and doesn't count for jack-shit.

It does indeed mean what I think it means! I think we have some folks who confuse "retcon" with "published/aired retcon". Unofficial, speculative retcons are indeed retcons.

The word "retcon" is short for "retroactive continuity". The thing you're trying to argue in favor of has nothing whatsoever to do with the conceptual definition of "retroactive continuity".... hence my invocation of the Inigo Montoya quote regarding the misuse of words in a way that is inconsistent with their actual meaning.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A but I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing it.

No one's doing that.

 

[Gojira]

There's no such thing as "personal continuity", as the proper/correct terms are Personal Canon or Fanon.

As far as providing an example of an instance in which Personal Canon/Fanon runs contrary to logic and factual evidence goes, you yourself have provided such an example with your insistence that Enterprise takes place in the Kelvin Timeline.

I used to call it Personal canon until members here had a problem with that then they suggested personal continuity. So people are going to complain no matter what you do.

Since none of the episodes from TNG-DS9-VOY I routinely watch mention anything from ENT or about ENT I Don't run the risk of running into any factual contradictions.

 

[Gojira]

No one's doing that.

Your first reply to me implied I had a sense of entitlement and it demonstrated a sense of hubris. Hardly a supportive position and attitude.

 

[DigificWriter]

Since none of the episodes from TNG-DS9-VOY I routinely watch mention anything from ENT or about ENT I Don't run the risk of running into any factual contradictions.

Pardon the expression, but this is "Trump Logic". Just because series that were produced BEFORE Enterprise existed don't reference Enterprise doesn't mean that Enterprise is suddenly relegated to occurring in an entirely separate timeline that itself didn't exist at the time Enterprise was produced.

 

[Albinator]

At the moment we don't know the story so all we really have to go on is the way it looks.

Then I ask you this: if we don't know the story, why bother getting in a fuss speculating about it when they'v said it's Prime?

Ultimately, does it even really matter, if the show is good? Does it matter, likewise, if the show sucks?

In the end, it doesn't matter.

 

[Tarek71]

A reimagining of something that doesn't have professional "weight" of any kind behind it is called Fanfiction, even if it's also claimed as Personal Canon, and doesn't count for jack-shit.


The word "retcon" is short for "retroactive continuity". The thing you're trying to argue in favor of has nothing whatsoever to do with the conceptual definition of "retroactive continuity".... hence my invocation of the Inigo Montoya quote regarding the misuse of words in a way that is inconsistent with their actual meaning.

It has everything to do with it. Fans can create retcons just as they can reimagine. It isn't once ounce less applicable to retcon. The quote is what is misused here. Again we have people conflating published/unpublished, aired/unaired, with retcon/not retcon and reimagination/not a reimagination.

 

[DigificWriter]

It's a fictional universe, so "factual evidence" is dubious here. Reboots, reimaginations and retcons are permissible. As for logic, why would


It has everything to do with it. Fans can create retcons just as they can reimagine. It isn't once ounce less applicable to retcon. The quote is what is misused here. Again we have people conflating published/published, aired/unaried, with retcon/not retcon and reimagination/not a reimagination.

[Malcolm Reynolds voice]My dats of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.[/Malcolm Reynolds voice]

 

[Gojira]

When I first posted how and why I see DISc and Enterprise in the Kelvin timeline as my personal continuity I thought we could have good chat about how that could work or not work.

But instead I got into a conversation with people that have an issue with people that have a personal continuity. It was implied that I was arrogant, had a feeling of self importance and entitlement. Gee, talk about projection and overreaction!

It was also implied I changed because THEY were the ones with the issue.

 

[fireproof78]

Since I see the USS Kelvin evolving from the NX-01 and the USS Discovery being informed by the Kelvin I could see the connection, but I also belive it is all Prime.

 

[DigificWriter]

When I first posted how and why I see DISc and Enterprise in the Kelvin timeline as my personal continuity I thought we could have good chat about how that could work or not work.

But instead I got into a conversation with people that have an issue with people that have a personal continuity.

The point behind the concept of Personal Canon isn't to allow people to ignore the actual Canon, but to supplement and enhance said Canon. Where I believe the conflict has arisen is that you've come in here trying to push your own Personal Canon as if it's ACTUAL Canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Your first reply to me implied I had a sense of entitlement and it demonstrated a sense of hubris. Hardly a supportive position and attitude.

As I said, I object to the term, which gives an impression of fan entitlement and hubris. I never said you can't create your own Star Trek stories or pick and chose from the ones that exist.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The point behind the concept of Personal Canon isn't to allow people to ignore the actual Canon, but to supplement and enhance said Canon. Where I believe the conflict has arisen is that you've come in here trying to push your own Personal Canon as if it's ACTUAL Canon.

I don't think Gojira did that.

 

[Tarek71]

The point behind the concept of Personal Canon isn't to allow people to ignore the actual Canon, but to supplement and enhance said Canon. Where I believe the conflict has arisen is that you've come in here trying to push your own Personal Canon as if it's ACTUAL Canon.

Right, fans can speculate about what hasn't been covered on screen. But they can also do what writers do, which is retcon, reimagination, change, or reboot. We can just throw things out. Gone. It's allowed. You may not agree with every decision, but every professional creative team doesn't agree with each other either. You don't have to engage in it yourself. You can restrict your personal continuity to just whats on screen and speculations about what hasn't been. But others what to do more than that. That's fine for writers and fans. And for writers who are fans.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You're right that people are free to create their own Fanfiction/Fanon, but that doesn't actually give said things any official weight or standing.