The New USS Discovery....

[Mirror Mirror]

First of all the "lengthening" of the ship (by 16 meters) ain't much of an argument. You can change the length of a Starfleet starship simply by replacing its nacelles and/or nacelle pylons. On paper the ship will change it's length without the actual body of the ship having been shortened or lengthened.

Secondly and more importantly, you're missing the point. The point isn't that the refits being done to the Midway are exactly like the ones done to the Enterprise. And how could they? One is a 20th century aircraft carrier and the other is a fictional 23rd century starship.

Oh now, this is not what was done, not at all. Lets look at the ships, side by side.

First off, no one would ever honestly claim this is the same class of ships. I did a fast and dirty size here based off pixals of the image. The "refit" does have longer nacelles, which is to be expected. But lets walk though everything.

• The TOS Secondary hull is only 404 px long and 104 tall, the TMP is 431 long and 113 px tall. The shape is clearly not the same.
• The whole deflector assemblage is in a whole other place. Its much deeper on the TMP design.
• The Tos Saucer is 486 px long by 125 tall. The TMP version is 560 long and 231 tall. It not the same saucer, it is both taller and a good bit longer and wider.
• The Nacelle pylons have moved! not just the shape but the very location, which would mean a massive rework of bracing.
• The neck designs are the closest thing the two share and even they are not alike.
• the total height without nacelles is 255 px vs 273.
• The total length without nacelles is 783 px vs 866 px.

This is not a refit, even with startrek level of tech you would not waste resources like this. They are not the same ship design and you can't make them work without starting over. No part of these two ships are shared. This is not a refit.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mirror Mirror]

I couldn't resist fiddling with it.

Edit: I fiddled a bit more.

I dig it, but I would have kept TMP neck personally. I like the 1st best, but I can see some nice things in the pylon shape of the second as well. Its a good blend I think.

 

[Ithekro]

Oh now, this is not what was done, not at all. Lets look at the ships, side by side.

First off, no one would ever honestly claim this is the same class of ships. I did a fast and dirty size here based off pixals of the image. The "refit" does have longer nacelles, which is to be expected. But lets walk though everything.

• The TOS Secondary hull is only 404 px long and 104 tall, the TMP is 431 long and 113 px tall. The shape is clearly not the same.
• The whole deflector assemblage is in a whole other place. Its much deeper on the TMP design.
• The Tos Saucer is 486 px long by 125 tall. The TMP version is 560 long and 231 tall. It not the same saucer, it is both taller and a good bit longer and wider.
• The Nacelle pylons have moved! not just the shape but the very location, which would mean a massive rework of bracing.
• The neck designs are the closest thing the two share and even they are not alike.
• the total height without nacelles is 255 px vs 273.
• The total length without nacelles is 783 px vs 866 px.

This is not a refit, even with startrek level of tech you would not waste resources like this. They are not the same ship design and you can't make them work without starting over. No part of these two ships are shared. This is not a refit.

[/QUOTE]

I would point out several Japanese battlecruiser reconstructions during the 1930s for an example of this. The Kongo-class battlecruisers were lengthened by almost eight meters to improve her fineness lines after they installed new boilers and engine in her. Originally she could make 27.5 knots. After her first round of refits, she could make 26 knots due to added weight and torpedo bulges. By the time the Japanese were done with her reconstruction she could do almost 31 knots. They replaced the original British style bridge with a huge pogofa mast tower bridge. You could sort of tell it was the same ship, but they had done a lot to her and her sister ships since 1913. Reclassified as battleships and then fast battleships.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Fair enough, but we are not talking about just that. if we just had new Nacelles and a new back half of the lower hull I could go with this. But we do not.

Look every section is new, its not the same frame, it can't be. The secondary hull is not the same design, its longer , a whole other shape and taller. The pylons are not in the same spot, which has to be designed into the hull to support the weight and stress. The Dish in front is deeper and would cut back into massive sections of the old hull.

No one can really honestly argue that is the same saucer, look at it. Really think of the massive work involved in making a dish shape larger, much less deeper. Then look at the neck which is also not the same location. does not have the same shape. It has a thicker bottom and is longer to help with the much larger .

So we have a totally new lower hull, a new neck and a totally replaced saucer section. Which is what we call a new ship. You would never refit a flit of ships this way, its too costly. Its cheaper and faster to build them from the group up than try and replace them part by part this way.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Oh now, this is not what was done, not at all. Lets look at the ships, side by side.

First off, no one would ever honestly claim this is the same class of ships. I did a fast and dirty size here based off pixals of the image. The "refit" does have longer nacelles, which is to be expected. But lets walk though everything.

• The TOS Secondary hull is only 404 px long and 104 tall, the TMP is 431 long and 113 px tall. The shape is clearly not the same.
• The whole deflector assemblage is in a whole other place. Its much deeper on the TMP design.
• The Tos Saucer is 486 px long by 125 tall. The TMP version is 560 long and 231 tall. It not the same saucer, it is both taller and a good bit longer and wider.
• The Nacelle pylons have moved! not just the shape but the very location, which would mean a massive rework of bracing.
• The neck designs are the closest thing the two share and even they are not alike.
• the total height without nacelles is 255 px vs 273.
• The total length without nacelles is 783 px vs 866 px.

This is not a refit, even with startrek level of tech you would not waste resources like this. They are not the same ship design and you can't make them work without starting over. No part of these two ships are shared. This is not a refit.

[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but we are not talking about just that. if we just had new Nacelles and a new back half of the lower hull I could go with this. But we do not.

Look every section is new, its not the same frame, it can't be. The secondary hull is not the same design, its longer , a whole other shape and taller. The pylons are not in the same spot, which has to be designed into the hull to support the weight and stress. The Dish in front is deeper and would cut back into massive sections of the old hull.

No one can really honestly argue that is the same saucer, look at it. Really think of the massive work involved in making a dish shape larger, much less deeper. Then look at the neck which is also not the same location. does not have the same shape. It has a thicker bottom and is longer to help with the much larger .

So we have a totally new lower hull, a new neck and a totally replaced saucer section. Which is what we call a new ship. You would never refit a flit of ships this way, its too costly. Its cheaper and faster to build them from the group up than try and replace them part by part this way.

No one can really honestly argue that is the same ship, look at it…

You would never refit a fleet of ships this way, its too costly…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Underwater_Propulsion_Power_Program

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Once more, this is not the same thing. Almost none of these changed in size( some did go smaller), they were excessive refits but not even close to what we are seeing here. They did not scrap the hull and rebuilt it, both inside and out. They altered the hull platting, undated the tech inside

 

[Ithekro]

A space ship could literally be torn down to its keel (for lack of a better word) and rebuilt from there to suit what is needed. Unlike a seagoing vessel that's keel in on the bottom, and breaking that makes it basically worthless. A spaceship is more flexible in how it can be rebuilt.

Why do this? Organia Peace Treaty perhaps? A era of limiting new starship construction, so if Starfleet wants state of the art, they need to reconstruct an existing ship, because they can't build a new one. The Khitomer Accords could have been a different version of this, but results in the decommissioning of older starships in favor of Excelsior-class vessels and later building large Ambassador-class ships in smaller numbers rather than building a larger fleet of Constitution sized ship.

USS Discovery, on the other hand, appears to have some nice lines, but the ring within a ring with a command sphere seems like an odd choice with only the neck connecting all these sections. The four other points appear to be struts to keep the rings in place. What are they for? Isolating the bridge from the majority of the ship in case of boarding actions (Klingons do like to fight in glorious combat)? But then why two rings? Does it help progressively smaller shield bubbles around the command sphere? Can the space be used for something, like cargo hauling, or making a void zone with force fields that is outside the hull to inspect dangerous items via sensors or even just portholes? Are force fields strong enough to make a breathable section between the rings that a human could walk and breath in?

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Fair enough man, I don't agree but I do see your points.

On the discovery, they could be connections and this could be a first generation saucer separation. They could be designed to be blown and the inner part of the saucer to be jettisoned from the doomed ship. The idea of a secondary shield for the command section is interesting.

If she is a section 31 ship, maybe this is just a design they use.

 

[Ithekro]

The secondary shield idea I think was from TWOK, when Kirk goes to Yellow Alert is seems like there is something that comes up around the upper three levels of the saucer section. I think the old Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise suggested those were an older style deflector shield that supplemented the newer main shields installed in the TMP refit.

 

[Mudd]

Comparing the two ships in size based on that image is a mistake, as the TOS ship is slightly undersized there.

Dimensions for both are widely available.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Oh now, this is not what was done, not at all. Lets look at the ships, side by side.

First off, no one would ever honestly claim this is the same class of ships. I did a fast and dirty size here based off pixals of the image. The "refit" does have longer nacelles, which is to be expected. But lets walk though everything.

• The TOS Secondary hull is only 404 px long and 104 tall, the TMP is 431 long and 113 px tall. The shape is clearly not the same.
• The whole deflector assemblage is in a whole other place. Its much deeper on the TMP design.
• The Tos Saucer is 486 px long by 125 tall. The TMP version is 560 long and 231 tall. It not the same saucer, it is both taller and a good bit longer and wider.
• The Nacelle pylons have moved! not just the shape but the very location, which would mean a massive rework of bracing.
• The neck designs are the closest thing the two share and even they are not alike.
• the total height without nacelles is 255 px vs 273.
• The total length without nacelles is 783 px vs 866 px.

This is not a refit, even with startrek level of tech you would not waste resources like this. They are not the same ship design and you can't make them work without starting over. No part of these two ships are shared. This is not a refit.

How did you choose the relative scale of each?

For example: If I were to scale up the TOS version by a scale factor of 107% (attained by dividing the heights of the two ships -- 273 px divided by 255 px), then the rest of the TOS ship measurements is very similar in scale to the TMP measurements. So how do we know that the TOS image is not simply a reduced sized image?

Was there some other baseline that you used to set the relative sizes of each?

 

[Mirror Mirror]

How did you choose the relative scale of each?

For example: If I were to scale up the TOS version by a scale factor of 107% (attained by dividing the heights of the two ships -- 273 px divided by 255 px), then the rest of the TOS ship measurements is very similar in scale to the TMP measurements. So how do we know that the TOS image is not simply a reduced sized image?

Was there some other baseline that you used to set the relative sizes of each?

Ill recheck later. It well could be off as I used somone else work. I'll hunt up the offical sizes and do the whole thing from the ground up.

 

[Psion]

I couldn't resist fiddling with it.

Edit: I fiddled a bit more.

This is nice! You might consider removing the impulse deflection crystal assembly from this version, since the original idea from TMP was that the linear intermix shaft as new to this ship. I wonder if the deflection crystal was originally intended by the art department to be the replacement for the swirling lights that went away when they got rid of the domes on the nacelles (well, buried them, somewhat).

 

[Mirror Mirror]

This is nice! You might consider removing the impulse deflection crystal assembly from this version, since the original idea from TMP was that the linear intermix shaft as new to this ship. I wonder if the deflection crystal was originally intended by the art department to be the replacement for the swirling lights that went away when they got rid of the domes on the nacelles (well, buried them, somewhat).

Well the idea that started his work was this design was pre refit. That the ship more or less looked like the refit version, but had older nacelles and such. So you would have this as the TOS ship, not the refit, which would change some things, like replace the Nacelles.

At lest that was my take away

 

[Jesse1066]

This is nice! You might consider removing the impulse deflection crystal assembly from this version, since the original idea from TMP was that the linear intermix shaft as new to this ship. I wonder if the deflection crystal was originally intended by the art department to be the replacement for the swirling lights that went away when they got rid of the domes on the nacelles (well, buried them, somewhat).

I think taking away the impulse deflection crystal makes a lot of sense, since the pre-refit ship doesn't have a vertical intermix chamber. I thought about it, but I guess I felt that it's fundamental to the look of the TMP impulse assembly so I just made it white. Plus, that's how it is on Vektor's 1701 if I recall correctly. So if you want to imagine this design without it, go right ahead. I may even make that change myself.

 

[Mudd]

The given length of the TOP ship is 1000 feet long, as distinct from the TOS vessel which was 947 feet.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Ill recheck later. It well could be off as I used somone else work. I'll hunt up the offical sizes and do the whole thing from the ground up.

TOS Constitution-class length: 289 meters
Refit Constitution-class length: 305 meters
difference: 16 meters*

*(Seawolf-class submarines length: 108 meters
Seawolf-class USS Jimmy Carter length: 138 meters
difference: 30 meters)

 

[F. King Daniel]

The secondary shield idea I think was from TWOK, when Kirk goes to Yellow Alert is seems like there is something that comes up around the upper three levels of the saucer section. I think the old Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise suggested those were an older style deflector shield that supplemented the newer main shields installed in the TMP refit.

Although Saavik says "energize defence fields!", it's actually an unused cutaway graphic of deck 5 from The Motion Picture (I believe originally intended for Illia-bot's appearance) that is inserted. See HERE

 

[ISS Enterprise]

Swiddy on Deviantart has a pretty neat Ship design he called Colonia that is a beautiful blend of TOS and TMP. Definitely worth checking out his page for fun!

Cool ship, like the look

 

[Mirror Mirror]

TOS Constitution-class length: 289 meters
Refit Constitution-class length: 305 meters
difference: 16 meters*

*(Seawolf-class submarines length: 108 meters
Seawolf-class USS Los Angeles length: 138 meters
difference: 30 meters)

Those are not the same class of sub. The Los Angeles class is not a Seawolf class. Although the Seawolf class did replace the Los Angeles class. Unless you know of a current Replacement for SNN -688 Los Angeles decommission in 2011 that is a Seawolf class.