At least that much is certain.
The Forgotten Enterprise (Pre-1701 - Robert April)
- Thread starter PixelMagic
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At least that much is certain.
Well, canonically, there's no chronological argument for why it couldn't be pre-warp, but I'd say there's a design argument, namely, what else would the rings be for if not some kind of exotic drive? They're too flat to be a rotating habitat section. And they're coincidentally similar to what current physics says a ship capable of creating an Alcubierre-style warp bubble would look like.
And of course, extracanonical sources -- including two of my own novels for Pocket Books -- have always identified the ringship as an early warp-capable craft. Those are not binding, of course, but this is all just made-up stories anyway so we're perfectly free to accept non-canonical information in our own personal intepretations of the universe. And I don't think a misplaced model on some guy's desk is a compelling enough argument to throw out what's always been accepted about the ringship.
It would be interesting to find out who placed it there in the order and what the reasoning behind it was. I know for the movies they did borrow a fair bit from non-canon sources so it does seem odd that they would choose to place it before the Phoenix.
It could have been a proof-of-concept design to test new materials or technologies. Maybe it wasn't even fully functional but earned a place in history along with the space shuttle Enterprise.
Edit: I mean, they always include the space shuttle even though it didn't technically do anything except test the systems.
It's a bit of set design in a movie. The most probable reasoning is that it looked good that way.
Which is silly, since in retrospect to what we learned in Enterprise, it's logical to assume the ring ship was inspired by Vulcan ship design. Indeed, the Ships of the Line calendars, which have provided an in-depth explanation of the ring ship have gone with that interpretation.
Apparently it was once suggested in some non-canon material that the rings were for artificial gravity generation. Obviously Matt Jeffries' intention when he designed the ship was that they were the warp engines, but I think there's so little known about the ship that there are multiple ways to interpret it.
If Vulcans could come up with ringlike warp engines, Earthlings probably could, too. It's just that our 2050s ringship never worked (or the war intervened before it could be tested), and Cochrane got all the glory.
Or then it's a centrifugal gravity design. Sternbach's drawing and specs in the old Spaceflight Chronology just suggest an implausible scale where the users of the ring would have to be midgets, but that doesn't have to reflect on the onscreen appearance in any fashion.
Timo Saloniemi
Or then it's a centrifugal gravity design. Sternbach's drawing and specs in the old Spaceflight Chronology just suggest an implausible scale where the users of the ring would have to be midgets, but that doesn't have to reflect on the onscreen appearance in any fashion.
Timo Saloniemi
Like how many other people were trying to crack aircraft design at the same time as the Wright brothers, they just succeeded first. Perhaps the ringship came close but failed catastrophically and so the reason it's shown so often is in honor of the lives that were lost.
There are multiple possibilities. One of course is that it is one of those pre-warp ships that was sent to Alpha Centauri or the like (Spaceflight Chronology I think, or FASA), or it might be a prototype warpship that never made it (or was the other option to the eventual Phoenix), or a later Warp Two design testbed ship. It could even have been a loaded Vulcan ship or design study ship during one of the lulls in the Warp Five project. Could have even been some like of passanger ship.
"First" implies that there was a second ship in Earth Starfleet. Otherwise it would just be "The Earth Enterprise."
Unless it wasn't. The Trek novels imply that NX-01 actually did serve as part of the Federation's Starfleet for at least a few years.
Until we hear or see them, the only thing we can say is "We don't know of any others." Trying to prove a negative is illogical.
Who gives a shit about canon? I'm pointing out that we don't have any idea what that ship is. We know it was called Enterprise, but we don't know when it was built or by whom or who operated it. It could easily have been a Federation vessel testing some kind of advanced warp drive system, it could have been a bulk cargo carrier, it could have been a space station owned by the Enterprise Rent-a-Shuttle company. The fact is, we don't know, so we can't actually make a factual statement about what it WASN'T.
Just like the computer's statement to Scotty, we don't actually know if the computer's "there have been five ships named Enterprise" includes present company or not. The fact that he begins by asking for "my old ship" implies he is not looking for the ship that he is currently standing on, and the computer is probably smart enough to know this and would leave the -D out of the tally.
That would be kind of ironic considering that, IIRC, the Vulcan starships were originally inspired by the ringship concept
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the ringship Enterprise was a civilian passenger liner.
Again that's your assumption. That's not based on anything remotely circumstantial.
Trek novels have never been canon. But let's say for argument's shake that they are. They still support the official "five Federation starships named Enterprise" premise.
Until new content is released, that specifically contradicts or retrofits the old content, the "old" canon stands. And (old) canon says 1701, A, B, C, D, E.
The computer would have no reason to count a pre-Federation Earth vessel as "starships named Enterprise," any more than it would count the space shuttle Enterprise or any of the aircraft carriers Enterprise.
The computer is certainly not acting smart that day and is giving Scotty a hard time in that scene. Maybe "my old ship" was an insufficient request but when he narrowed it to "the Enterprise" you'd think that the computer should have been clever enough to figure out which one he was referring to. But it didn't and asks for even more clarification. The computer specifically asks which bridge to display because "there have been five Federation ships with that name", the original 1701, the A, the B, the C, and the current D. And that's exactly what Scotty understands also.
Then what the fuck are we discussing here if not Trek canon and continuity? La La Land?
Nothing in the "old content" actually says that there were ONLY five starships named Enterprise. The only thing we can take away from "Relics" is that the computer only has five ships with a 1701 registry that would fit Scotty's search criterion.
Why not? Scotty never asked the computer to search for FEDERATION vessels at all, and the computer didn't know what he meant by "my old ship." He could have been asking about his fishing boat for all the computer knew.
Apparently, though, "previous starships named Enterprise" is a common enough request that the holodeck's auto-complete generally suggests the five 1701 registry ships.
You try googling "bridge of the Enterprise" when you're drunk as hell. It won't be that much better.
We're discussing the possibility of a forgotten Enterprise. The whole point of a forgotten Enterprise is that IT'S FORGOTTEN, which means nobody's ever mentioned it before. Doesn't matter if canon fails to mention it or Scotty didn't see it in the results when he drunkenly googled it that one time. Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't exist.
I think another Enterprise would be cool and I'm not bothered about the references in "Relics" or "Trials and Tribbleations". I've been fascinated with April's Enterprise since I first read about it. I like the idea that it's actually the same ship as the Prime NCC-1701 but with a different number for some reason, or because of the timeline change an Enterprise was launched earlier, pushing the NCC-1701 back until 2258. Therefore this ship might only exist in the Kelvin timeline.
But another thought I had was, if there's an additional one, why not two? People joke but I do like the idea of an Enterprise being wiped out of the timeline, like a sci-fi version of the Mandela effect, so that all that remains are a few details. Or an Enterprise that's like a version of the Protector from "Galaxy Quest" in that it was built by some unknown race for use by the heroes on an adventure (which is how I would have explained the Planet of the Titans Enterprise existing alongside the NCC-1701). If a story is good and makes enough sense that I can kind of squint and see it fit inside the larger Trek canon, then go for it.
But another thought I had was, if there's an additional one, why not two? People joke but I do like the idea of an Enterprise being wiped out of the timeline, like a sci-fi version of the Mandela effect, so that all that remains are a few details. Or an Enterprise that's like a version of the Protector from "Galaxy Quest" in that it was built by some unknown race for use by the heroes on an adventure (which is how I would have explained the Planet of the Titans Enterprise existing alongside the NCC-1701). If a story is good and makes enough sense that I can kind of squint and see it fit inside the larger Trek canon, then go for it.
Count me out from the "More Enterpises is a cool idea" camp. Rebooting dead franchises in general is bad enough - do we have to go so creatively corrupt that we can't even invent new names for starships any longer?
The writers have done a valiant job at blocking extraneous Enterprises from happening. TNG told us twice that there aren't any ("Remember Me" and "Relics"), DS9 added a third assertion ("Trials"), and then there are the assorted display cases that agree on nothing else but the number of Enterprises in UFP Starfleet service. Sure, we can declare all of them special cases and exceptions, just like we can debunk every instance where they try to claim that Kirk was from Earth and the human species. But fictional worlds are built by deducting from infinity until something finite emerges. Why yank out the building bricks to no creative gain?
Timo Saloniemi
The writers have done a valiant job at blocking extraneous Enterprises from happening. TNG told us twice that there aren't any ("Remember Me" and "Relics"), DS9 added a third assertion ("Trials"), and then there are the assorted display cases that agree on nothing else but the number of Enterprises in UFP Starfleet service. Sure, we can declare all of them special cases and exceptions, just like we can debunk every instance where they try to claim that Kirk was from Earth and the human species. But fictional worlds are built by deducting from infinity until something finite emerges. Why yank out the building bricks to no creative gain?
Timo Saloniemi
You're talking about three comic relief lines written separately years apart. That's not "valiant" that's kind of just there.
There's plenty of real-world rationale for colloquially referring to separate things singularly or simplifying concepts to fit into a preconceived worldview.
I think canon needs to be flexible enough to allow for creativity within the universe. Otherwise it all becomes an exercise in pedantry. I love the idea of an Enterprise rushed into service following the Kelvin incident.
And why not? There are certainly places in the canon of Starfleet banging out ships rapid-fire in response to a threat, designing a new fleet based on a new threat, decommissioning ships after just a few years in active service, and reusing names without reusing registries. There also examples of one-off ships, inconsistent registration orders, and various other things.
Tell me a good story and I'll happily accept a conceit used to create a hook (naming the titular ship Enterprise for instance) or add a layer of interest and intrigue. Like, we already accept the continuity issues inherited from Trials and Tribbleations. Why not make room for other story elements?
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