Then Spock should be the Captain
Here is why canon is important to Trek.
- Thread starter Jayson1
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Then Spock should be the Captain
Spock apparently wasn't a instructor at the academy in the prime-verse, so Uhura didn't have a opportunity to use her "oral sensitivity" in exchange for high grades and a plumb assignment to the newest flagship.
In other words...
At leat Pike knocked nuKirk down a peg in Into Darkness before he bit the dust.
It's certainly possible to enjoy a story of a wannabe hero having to earn a trophy through hard work. Kung Fu Panda fits that mold, as does Doctor Strange. So I don't think you have to skip all these steps (Rey in Episode VII is the same problem).
I love canon and continuity very, very much. I've lost track of how many afternoons I spent combing through tech manuals and encyclopedias and Memory-Alpha and ditl.org.
But with that said, I really doubt canon and continuity was why TOS was so appreciated back in its day. Sure, it had quite a lot of consistency and a logical narrative, but nobody in the 60s tuned in every week to see how the next episode fit into the overall big picture. Audiences were in it for the ride, not the map of the ride.
But with that said, I really doubt canon and continuity was why TOS was so appreciated back in its day. Sure, it had quite a lot of consistency and a logical narrative, but nobody in the 60s tuned in every week to see how the next episode fit into the overall big picture. Audiences were in it for the ride, not the map of the ride.
1. Star Trek: Discovery is not continuing a show. It is a new show. There has not been a Star Trek show for twelve years.
2. You are confusing your subjective artistic preferences for objective artistic requirements. An entry in a franchise that disregards previous continuity can be high-quality -- just look at The Dark Knight, which is in contradiction to the Batman canon. On the other hand, an entry that respects prior continuity can be deeply mediocre -- just look at Spider-Man 3.
Continuity =/= quality.
No one said that. What I and others have said is that continuity should not be the primary artistic consideration. Continuity should be used to enhance the story, not to hinder it. Forcing Star Trek: Discovery to adhere to the production design aesthetics of a half-century old television show originally designed for black-and-white televisions nine presidents ago would hinder the show. Taking advantage of the basic astropolitical setup of the mid-2200s as established in the original Star Trek to tell a new story enhances it.
Problem with this logic is that the list of creators who had their own creative ideas that involved breaking with the show's internal history begins with Gene Roddenberry himself.
Seriously. Is it James T. Kirk or James R. Kirk? Is the Enterprise an Earth starship or a Federation starship? Does Kirk work for the United Earth Spaceprobe Agency or Starfleet? Is Spock a Vulcan or a Vulcanian? Does Vulcan have no moon or multiple moons? Was Vulcan conquered or is the idea of Vulcan being conquered inconceivable to any living Vulcan? Is anti-matter so dangerous that it could destroy the universe, or is it just the thing that powers the warp drive? Do they use lithium crystals or dilithium crystals? Do they fire lasers or phasers? Is warp drive necessary to travel faster than light, or can a Romulan starship move from star to star with simple impulse power? Is the acquisition of wealth a driving force for miners like those in "The Devil in the Dark," or has money disappeared like in Star Trek IV? Do Klingons bear a striking resemblance to racist Fu Manchu-esque caricatures of Asians, or are they bumpy-foreheaded? Why the complete change in production design aesthetic between TOS and TMP even though it's only been two years?
I don't know anybody who thinks the idea that Kirk goes from being a cadet to being captain of the flagship in the course of about two days isn't absolutely ridiculous, no matter what their age.
Aural sensitivity. The context of the scene makes it very clear that Uhura is talking about her sense of hearing and skills as a communications officer. She is objecting that her superior skills as a communications officer ought to warrant her being assigned to the Enterprise, but that she is being unfairly reassigned to a less-prestigious post because of her relationship with Spock.
One issue with the idea of changing the overall look of a universe is that isn't this kind of like doing a modern day cop show and the cops all drive 4 wheelers and the the uniforms are overalls with a funny hat. The buildings are look like Mos Eisley on "Star Wars."
Doesn't their have to be some familiar touchstones to any other show in that era and you then take that look and find new things to add to it while making it feel like it belongs to the time period in which you are in?
With "Discovery" you think you would see a kind of look that is a shift between Enterprise and TOS but with Kelvin Universe upgrade when it comes to computer graphics and alien designs.
I would really love to see someone who knows how to photoshop post a a TOS style computer console with updated touchscreen buttons over the old outdated buttons. Also what would those new viewscreen graphics look like if you put them inside the TOS viewscreen and then maybe give all the old looking consoles a more metalic look to look more modern. In other words keep the same shapes just change the colors and buttons.
Jason
Doesn't their have to be some familiar touchstones to any other show in that era and you then take that look and find new things to add to it while making it feel like it belongs to the time period in which you are in?
With "Discovery" you think you would see a kind of look that is a shift between Enterprise and TOS but with Kelvin Universe upgrade when it comes to computer graphics and alien designs.
I would really love to see someone who knows how to photoshop post a a TOS style computer console with updated touchscreen buttons over the old outdated buttons. Also what would those new viewscreen graphics look like if you put them inside the TOS viewscreen and then maybe give all the old looking consoles a more metalic look to look more modern. In other words keep the same shapes just change the colors and buttons.
Jason
And Luke might do the same in Episode VIII.In other words...
At leat Pike knocked nuKirk down a peg in Into Darkness before he bit the dust.
It's certainly possible to enjoy a story of a wannabe hero having to earn a trophy through hard work. Kung Fu Panda fits that mold, as does Doctor Strange. So I don't think you have to skip all these steps (Rey in Episode VII is the same problem).
I don't think the steps need to be skipped either, but I think that ST ID did a good job of following through on the consequences of ST 09. Which illustrates when canon can be important-when the consequences make sense and impact the characters.
In other words, the same things that caused people to be tired of the franchise when Voyager and Enterprise were on (moreso Voyager than Enterprise, IMHO.)
I've long felt Star Wars is a difficult comparison to make, because while it's definitely influenced by the mid-70s aesthetic, it's also internally divorced from Earth culture. If Star Trek is a hypothetical extrapolation of life on Earth, the era in which it's produced will always exert some influence over how it's designed. Star Wars on the other hand has such a detailed aesthetic that's both out of time and out of place from us (a long time in a galaxy far, far away...).
The producers have already made it clear that Star Trek: Discovery's first season will comprise a single season-long arc, with a beginning, middle, and end. The era of truly episodic television is pretty much dead, and Star Trek can't be trapped in the 80s (or even the 90s or the 00s).
Trek 09 is a confusing one for me sometimes. One problem with TOS is that they did almost nothing with the secondary characters, like Uhura's character example. We had to be content with just a few interesting lines, some interesting scenes, but that's it, so she's forever stuck in that 2 dimensional barrier.
Nu Trek does give us more of Uhura. It gives us a lot more in a way I tend to like. I think Nu Trek gets it in that respect. But the canon can be so loopy. And suffers from being too hyper and too impatient and too fast.
It had to make cadet Kirk captain by the end of the movie. And do the same with the other cadets filling the Enterprise positions.
In the first movie, Sulu couldn't even figure out how to get the ship into warp, by the time next movie Kirk puts him in command of the entire ship.
That means everybody....All of the crew on the Nu Enterprise must be activated cadets.
Spock and Uhura are already a couple at the start. We don't get to see how they evolved to be a couple, they just are. But they constantly bicker. The movie is just too hyper.
It's not enough to make you give up on the movies, but those things can stick in the mind enough to make you smirk at a certain scene when you see it again.
Starship Troopers did the same thing with activating cadets and making them officers and solidiers later, but it seemed more reasonable somehow.
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Because you ddin't have years of preconceptions going into Starship Troopers.
Then again, the situation in ST'09 isn't too removed from Wrath of Khan, where the Enterprise launches with a senior staff plus a crew of untested cadets. Only in ST'09, the senior staff seemingly consists entirely of Chief Engineer Olsen, the unseen Dr Puri and Captain Pike, who are immediately killed, killed and kidnapped.
It's because it's part of the point in Starship Troopers. Nothing to do with expectations (and I am sure at least two different fan groups had expectations of that film.)
ST09 would have still worked if the cast had come together from different ships with it ending with Kirk as the new Captain taking over from Pike or even being his First Officer. Having them jump from being students to high level officers affected my suspension of disbelief, even though I enjoyed seeing Star Trek in film mode.
I don't think that's why people were tired of those shows.
It was a preference, not a prediction. Besides, trends come and go. Personally, I'm looking forward to the return of the powdered wig.
Actually if you think about it, Trek09 and Starship Troopers are very similar, almost plot for plot. Troubled youth joining an organization, makes friends, a sudden attack on a planet , activating cadets to fight the aliens that did it, rivalry between cadets, senior officers gets killed, troubled youth saves the day, becomes the leader of the squad. (Starship Troopers)
I think even the casual fan may have a problem with Trek09 scenario. It didn't affect box office, but it might--this is a big "might"-- have a long term effect on how they viewed the movie series.
That's my thought too. If you accept this scenario, then you have to believe the Enterprise crew is staffed with cadets. No experienced officers older than 25 probably. The flagship no less.
It just has 90's cartoon feel to it. That's why logical cannon can be important.
Whether its the flaship (a fanon belief ?) or not it was a roll my eyes moment for me when watching the movie. The STDS9 episode 'Valient' on what happens when mainly inexperienced cadets run a ship (during war time no less) seems more real for the ST universe.
Well they did actually partailly complete the mission in Valiant and get the scans of the ship, it's when they went they decided to ignore the part abpout returning the information that things started to go downhill.
I suppose from what I can recall from ST09 or was it STID, Kirk was making it up as he went along. Great command material technique....
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