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Do people still believe in Hell?

And just in case I wasn't clear enough with my last post, that is not my belief. Just sayin'. ;)

(Besides, I'm Lutheran. I'm not sure we even count as evangelicals, in the strictest sense.)

I do not believe that anyone here is going to Hell. Like I said, Hell is a place of punishment for the REAL evil. And that is not what I see here.
Are you sure? I talk in theaters.

;)
 
Refuge you ask people why they object to something and you get carefully, even delicately worded responses that include personal stories and the writer's reasoning. This you then call pushy. Do you really want a conversation, because it sounds otherwise.
 
Actually I shared a carefully worded personal story and got called pushy for it myself. Yet I haven't written nearly the same screens as others. I also found your references to my Mother offensive.
 
Refuge you said about good people burning in hell forever: "If that is the way it works, that is the way it works. I have no problem it". Bringing this back to the personal level by asking you if you have a problem with it if it's your atheist mom is the only way I can think to get you to see the odious nature of this dismissive and cruel belief. That you find that offensive, but don't find it offensive to condemn billions of people world wide shows you haven't thought through your belief on hell at all. It's just part of the package deal you accept, unfortunately. You don't have to accept things like this, beliefs and interpretations of religious texts are wide and varied within Christianity.
 
Something I had toyed with when I was younger too, the notion that maybe God was not the good guy and everyone has it ass backwards, and that Satan is actually the good guy.
 
To be honest I don't know much about it.
Basically it's a self-directed ceremonial magickal practice with Satan as the central deity. I discovered it through Chaos Magick and Thelema (I was dating a woman who was a Thelemite at the time). I believed Satan, or Lucifer -- I generally equated the two -- embodied individuality, free thought, and self-directed spirituality. I didn't even like to say I "worshiped' Satan because Satan found supplication or worship to devalue the individual. Instead I said I "revered" Satan. There was no selling your soul to the Devil (your soul was your true self and you had an inherent right to it), no animal sacrifice, nothing like that. I liked a particular book (which I can't find anymore) that described a spiritual journey whereby a Satanist could spiritually travel to a separate plane of existence that was totally untouched by god. Essentially, God was a tyrant, Satan was the liberator. Your spiritual journey was truly your own, and the goal was to be liberated from any spiritual restraint or confines, thus realizing your true self. That's the long and short of it.

I don't believe that stuff anymore. Haven't for many years. Now I believe that when you die, you're dead, the end. Throughout my life I've experimented with all kinds of things: raised Catholic, became atheist in high school, converted to Methodism in college, dabbled in Hinduism, then was a Satanist, then a Wiccan, then an atheist. I liked to explore. Nowadays I find religion pretty dull. I'm satisfied with a shrug, an "I dunno, but probably nothing," and enjoying life as I see fit. Still feel some sympathy for the devil though, especially in discussions like this thread.

Satanism was a bit too confrontational and aggressive for me. These days I find a lot of inspiration and comfort in nature, particularly birdwatching. That's where I experience what some people might call "spirituality." It was a phase I went through. I'm glad I did, but now I'm over it.
 
Refuge you said about good people burning in hell forever: "If that is the way it works, that is the way it works. I have no problem it". Bringing this back to the personal level by asking you if you have a problem with it if it's your atheist mom is the only way I can think to get you to see the odious nature of this dismissive and cruel belief. That you find that offensive, but don't find it offensive to condemn billions of people world wide shows you haven't thought through your belief on hell at all. It's just part of the package deal you accept, unfortunately. You don't have to accept things like this, beliefs and interpretations of religious texts are wide and varied within Christianity.

This is the way the conversation actually was.. and it matters..

You said: "We're not talking about be a serial killer vs don't be a serial killer here. Yes we can all work that out. The biblical hell we're threatened with is believe in this god in this way or else you're fucked. Burning forever. No this isn't something people can work out because there are gazillions of people leading good, happy, productive, loving lives who don't believe in that particular god and have no reason to do so."

To which I replied:

"If that is the way it works, that is the way it works. I have no problem it."

I did not reply that in reference to "good people burning in hell forever." Let's be fair, I don't mind people disagreeing but when things go off on a tangent that didn't play out that way the truth gets lost. It is hard to have a conversation with someone when they redefine what you say, because everyone then moves onto to such matters like you must be a horrible person Refuge for wanting your Atheist Mother to die and burn in Hell. I know you didn't want to mean that, I think, but you misrepresented what I do believe. Somehow I am now stuck with defending the the real belief I have that I do not want good people or my Mother to go to Hell. I have made that clear in several posts when asked and am doing so.. again. And yes I would leave this blessed subject but you did post to me.

What you actually said was that 'there are gazillions of people leading good, happy, productive, loving lives who don't believe in that particular god and have no reason to do so."

I feel if they 'don't believe' and have 'no reason' to do so then yes, if that is the way it works, so be it. I can and have to live with it because I cannot deny my truth.

I think good people can be saved.. I really do.
 
What you actually said was that 'there are gazillions of people leading good, happy, productive, loving lives who don't believe in that particular god and have no reason to do so."

I feel if they 'don't believe' and have 'no reason' to do so then yes, if that is the way it works, so be it.

If that's the way what works?

You say I misunderstood you but I am unclear what you are even talking about.
 
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Basically it's a self-directed ceremonial magickal practice with Satan as the central deity. I discovered it through Chaos Magick and Thelema (I was dating a woman who was a Thelemite at the time). I believed Satan, or Lucifer -- I generally equated the two -- embodied individuality, free thought, and self-directed spirituality. I didn't even like to say I "worshiped' Satan because Satan found supplication or worship to devalue the individual. Instead I said I "revered" Satan. There was no selling your soul to the Devil (your soul was your true self and you had an inherent right to it), no animal sacrifice, nothing like that. I liked a particular book (which I can't find anymore) that described a spiritual journey whereby a Satanist could spiritually travel to a separate plane of existence that was totally untouched by god. Essentially, God was a tyrant, Satan was the liberator. Your spiritual journey was truly your own, and the goal was to be liberated from any spiritual restraint or confines, thus realizing your true self. That's the long and short of it.

I don't believe that stuff anymore. Haven't for many years. Now I believe that when you die, you're dead, the end. Throughout my life I've experimented with all kinds of things: raised Catholic, became atheist in high school, converted to Methodism in college, dabbled in Hinduism, then was a Satanist, then a Wiccan, then an atheist. I liked to explore. Nowadays I find religion pretty dull. I'm satisfied with a shrug, an "I dunno, but probably nothing," and enjoying life as I see fit. Still feel some sympathy for the devil though, especially in discussions like this thread.

Satanism was a bit too confrontational and aggressive for me. These days I find a lot of inspiration and comfort in nature, particularly birdwatching. That's where I experience what some people might call "spirituality." It was a phase I went through. I'm glad I did, but now I'm over it.
Wow.. don't laugh but I was a bit nervous as to what that was going to be, lol. If I might interpret, Satan was/is like a rebel angel? You find your own spirituality without the rules of God or the Bible. Your spirituality's realization is its own reward.

Now you believe in the finality of death. I know many people who do.

Bird watching is a joy. I feed tons of them, lol.
 
Wow.. don't laugh but I was a bit nervous as to what that going to be, lol. If I might interpret, Satan was/is like a rebel angel? Your find your own spirituality without the rules of God or the Bible. Your spirituality's realization is its own reward.

Now you believe in the finality of death. I know many people who do.

Bird watching is a joy. I feed tons of them, lol.
Yeah it was basically using Satan as a guide away from traditional religious practice and norms to find a spirituality that was yours and yours alone, not influenced by thousands of years of religious indoctrination. Satan was a liberator who encouraged you to find your true self on your own terms, not to take things at face value, and truth through personal revelation and experience not dogma or established texts. It was quite freeing, to be honest. Satan was more than a rebellious angel -- he'd ascended beyond just being an angel to a separate plane of existence that was beyond the confines of god's purview or creation. That was the ultimate goal. It was pretty weird. Very different from LaVeyan Satanism, which is Ayn Rand's objectivism with Satanic imagery for dramatic effect, or The Temple of Satan, which is a political organization (which I admire but wasn't really a thing back then).

I guess I believe in the finality of death. I think that phrasing ascribes too much emphasis on death itself. I like to live my life and not worry about things I can't know, namely any possible spiritual or religious truths. I think life is its own reward, and when you die, hey, I had a great life looking at birds.

EDIT: Yeah just to emphasize, birdwatching is my favorite thing in the whole world. I love it even more than Star Trek. It brings me a sense of peace and joy I've never experienced before. And all the better that my girlfriend loves it as much as I do and we can share it. No religion has ever given me that level of centering and self-affirmation.
 
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I wonder if after 'the time' comes whether we can all get together and swap stories. 'Post' on the Celestial version of Trekbbs.

I don't believe we go away.. I think we are all so unique that our energy or call it spirit carries on..
 
I wonder if after 'the time' comes whether we can all get together and swap stories. 'Post' on the Celestial version of Trekbbs.

I don't believe we go away.. I think we are all so unique that our energy or call it spirit carries on..


My interpretation of death is that when we die all the energy that is "us" dissipates and spreads out becoming part of the background noise of the universe.
 
Something I had toyed with when I was younger too, the notion that maybe God was not the good guy and everyone has it ass backwards, and that Satan is actually the good guy.
Well Satan has never put out a book, so we don't know his side of the argument. That makes him the bigger man because God's been talking shit about him for millennia and he's staying out of it.

Plus if you're into metal, Hell is probably Heaven. Heaven is great if you want to spend eternity with religious people.
 
My interpretation of death is that when we die all the energy that is "us" dissipates and spreads out becoming part of the background noise of the universe.

Well, when you think of it, what were the odds of you existing, what were the odds of all the matter that made you coming together, and if it can happen once then it can happen again, and it might have already happened a billion times already for all we know.
 
Well Satan has never put out a book, so we don't know his side of the argument. That makes him the bigger man because God's been talking shit about him for millennia and he's staying out of it.

Plus if you're into metal, Hell is probably Heaven. Heaven is great if you want to spend eternity with religious people.
Oooh I still love a good black metal album from time to time.
 
Well Satan has never put out a book, so we don't know his side of the argument. That makes him the bigger man because God's been talking shit about him for millennia and he's staying out of it.

Plus if you're into metal, Hell is probably Heaven. Heaven is great if you want to spend eternity with religious people.


Heaven sounds like a kind of Hell

All you do all day is sing praises to god and that to me sounds like brainwashing and control...

<reaper voice> Assuming Direct Control </reaper voice>
 
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