Spoilers Supergirl - Season 2

[Skipper]

Maybe a fair point and I respect your point that you feel drawn into something that you want no part of.

On the other hand I suspect the reason this is coming to a fore in such a manner is the feeling that scores of people politely dropping the hint has simply not sunk in....

I don't know when this whole thing started, But you have to consider that there are people who are new to this site. They (and I) just want to discuss about some fragment of pop culture and instead they find a 20-row long diagnosis of another user's behavior. From a moderator, nevertheless. I can understand a reminder, a short suggestion or whatever. Not a post that is longer than the average ones on the same thread. If you have to say something like this, perhaps it's better to say it with a private message. Because otherwise you risk getting the opposite effect. This is a public forum that everyone can read and is indexed by search engines. And Chris is using his real name.

 

[Kirk Prime]

It is sexist. It is sexist and absurd to maintain fiction must adhere to it. Superman is fictional. If a good story can be had from it, he'll get beat by a three legged kitten.

Which would be out of character and a sign of bad writing.

In this story, nothing was advanced by Kara beating Superman. She could have had that same fight without that, but instead the writers chose to diminish one of the greatest fictional characters ever created in this country.

Again--if they had to weaken Superman to strengthen Kara, they did a poor job building Kara in the first place. They are better than that.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Which would be out of character and a sign of bad writing.

No, it wouldn't make it out of character or bad writing.

In this story, nothing was advanced by Kara beating Superman. She could have had that same fight without that, but instead the writers chose to diminish one of the greatest fictional characters ever created in this country.

No, the series is called Supergirl. Her story is always advanced by the show. Superman was in no way diminished by being beaten by a woman however much you keep insisting on that. The idea that a woman beating Superman diminishes him is laughable not just for its inherent absurdity but for the poor light it casts on your thinking about women and men. Thinking which is deeply sexist and clearly threatened by the temerity of the writers having a woman beat Superman.

Again--if they had to weaken Superman to strengthen Kara, they did a poor job building Kara in the first place. They are better than that.

They didn't weaken Superman, he just got his ass whupped. By a woman.

 

[Mudd]

This wasn't viewed as a lucky win by Superman.

That's because Superman isn't an insecure dick (well, this version of him isn't anyway).

This isnt a one-off win. The show has now established Supergirl > Superman.

Not a problem...especially because the show is Supergirl.

... one of the greatest fictional characters ever created in this country.

One of the most well-known pop culture creations, perhaps.

One of the greatest fictional characters? Not if one is more than eight years old.

 

[Jax]

diminish one of the greatest fictional characters ever created in this country.

He's only diminished to people who have a problem with a woman beating a man.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No, it wouldn't make it out of character or bad writing.

Unless of course, you know who Superman is.

No, the series is called Supergirl. Her story is always advanced by the show. Superman was in no way diminished by being beaten by a woman however much you keep insisting on that. The idea that a woman beating Superman diminishes him is laughable not just for its inherent absurdity but for the poor light it casts on your thinking about women and men. Thinking which is deeply sexist and clearly threatened by the temerity of the writers having a woman beat Superman.

It's interesting because I didn't say it was because Superman was beaten by a woman that he was diminished. You did. Sounds like there's a chip on your shoulder. It's not that Superman was beaten by a woman. It's that he was beaten, period. It was the same issue in Batman v. Superman. If you can't pump up your hero without having to dumb down Superman, then that's bad writing. But continue your little sexism soapbox. It's not accurate, but the fake outrage is amusing.

They didn't weaken Superman, he just got his ass whupped. By a woman.

Having him whupped by anyone is out of character.

Not a problem...especially because the show is Supergirl.

So that means Supergirl's writers have such little faith in the character that they have to weaken Superman to pump her up?

One of the most well-known pop culture creations, perhaps.

One of the greatest fictional characters? Not if one is more than eight years old.

Well, that's a very condescending comment, but the character has lasted nearly 80 years for a reason, and it's not just because 8 year olds like him.

 

[Awesome Possum]

He's only diminished to people who have a problem with a woman beating a man.

Exactly. The language being used speaks volumes.

 

[dahj]

Unless of course, you know who Superman is.

It's Clark Kent, innit?
Those glasses don't fool me...

 

[Awesome Possum]

He's the guy who lost a fight to his cousin. He seemed fine with it though. He's secure in his masculinity so stuff like that can't bother him.

 

[tenmei]

I thought they handled Kara beating Clark very well - and didn't beat it over the head as much as people are trying to make out. At both points, he is genuinely surprised and humbled that she beat him - the assumption being he is the most powerful is blown out of the water, and he is shocked as he's always believe that, to borrow Wolverine's catchphrase, he's the best there is at what he does.

But at what point do we see where he stands in the Kryptonian strength rankings, perhaps he's only middle ground and Kara is actually at the top end for a female Kryptonian.

All we know is that he fought Zod before - but how many others from Krypton did he encounter? So, based on his previous beating of Zod, he assumed he was more powerful than Kara, and found out he wasn't.

 

[Romulan_spy]

It's not that Superman was beaten by a woman. It's that he was beaten, period.
...
Having him whupped by anyone is out of character.

Wait, so you are saying that Superman should never ever lose a fight? That is unrealistic story-telling. And I am pretty sure that Superman has lost plenty of fights in various comics, TV shows and movies. Superheroes lose fights all the time, usually to up the stakes, so that they can bounce back stronger and save the day in the end. It makes for more exciting drama when our hero loses the first round only to come back and win in the 10th round. It is a common trope in comics and movies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Superman isn't really all that good at fighting.

He's just almost nearly unkillable enough to have almost nearly always survived being a really nice guy.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Unless of course, you know who Superman is.

A fictional character that's been beaten numerous times in his history.

It's interesting because I didn't say it was because Superman was beaten by a woman that he was diminished. You did.

You don't read what you write, do you?

In this story, nothing was advanced by Kara beating Superman. She could have had that same fight without that, but instead the writers chose to diminish one of the greatest fictional characters ever created in this country.

Diminished by being beaten by Kara. A woman.

Sounds like there's a chip on your shoulder. It's not that Superman was beaten by a woman. It's that he was beaten, period. It was the same issue in Batman v. Superman. If you can't pump up your hero without having to dumb down Superman, then that's bad writing. But continue your little sexism soapbox. It's not accurate, but the fake outrage is amusing.

No, it's not bad writing. Clearly, you have invested a lot of yourself in a fictional character's non-existent invincibility.

Having him whupped by anyone is out of character.

No, your opinion is not fact. His getting whupped has happened many times, from Muhammad Ali to Kara and many more besides.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Wait, so you are saying that Superman should never ever lose a fight? That is unrealistic story-telling. And I am pretty sure that Superman has lost plenty of fights in various comics, TV shows and movies. Superheroes lose fights all the time, usually to up the stakes, so that they can bounce back stronger and save the day in the end. It makes for more exciting drama when our hero loses the first round only to come back and win in the 10th round. It is a common trope in comics and movies.

When Superman has all his marbles, and is fighting for good, and goes all out, no, he should never lose a fight. There are very few beings capable of beating him legitimately and usually that's because he holds back.

I'm not saying that Superman can't feel defeat. Beating him physically isn't how it's done. Superman can be hurt by hurting others around him. Hurting innocent people. The greatest Superman story I have ever watched was called Apokolips Now, in the 1996 cartoon. Superman took a beating physically, but he wasn't defeated. It was when Darkseid did something so shocking and horrible that even after humanity overcame tremendous odds, Superman was actually defeated--even in victory.

Another example was a story called For the Man Who Has Everything. This is a brilliant story both in the comics and in the cartoons. In fact, it was so brilliant that the writers adapted the story for Supergirl, with Supergirl stepping in for Superman. It was a story where in order to come back, Kara (Clark) had to give up her greatest desires. It was a mental torture.

Superman's weaknesses are not physical--they are mental. Like General Zod said--"he cares."

Yes, using kryptonite can weaken him. That makes him vulnerable physically--though that didn't happen here.

Here, Superman was just a tool, dumbed down and weakened, just so he could go around telling everyone that Kara beat him.

No, your opinion is not fact. His getting whupped has happened many times, from Muhammad Ali to Kara and many more besides.

Interesting that you accuse someone else of not reading while you bring up Superman v. Muhammad Ali. You are aware that fight was done under red sun lighting, so Superman didn't have his power, right? Or do you think Muhammad Ali was able to beat a guy who can juggle planets with no problem?

 

[Jayson1]

The word "sexist" sure is been tossed about a lot in this thread towards people we only know via a tv show or internet posts. Why is it anytime someone disagree's it means they are instantly the scum of the earth and they have dubious motives?
Can't this debate be argued on a nerd level? I can understand why people feel protective of the character of the Superman character. Between him and Batman and maybe Spiderman aren't these basically the most popular comic characters of all time? I mean everyone has others they like but historically aren't these the ones whose's popularity never seems to go down? Let's face it if CW had a chance to do Superman on tv do you think they would choose Supergirl over Superman?
I think it makes sense that you would treat Superman almost on equal footing with Supergirl even if this is her show. With that said I think everyone agree's that Supergirl should have been the main hero and the one who defeats the villian. Seems to me the biggest mistake was not making them as equals when it comes to fighting and not letting him really do anything intresting in the episode. I wouldn't have even minded him dying, which he has done before and Supergirl taking over the mantle as the world's savior. Maybe make next season become more global were we see Supergirl dealing with threats outside of her city.
Also I said this before but this show really needs a character who isn't so nice and PC. This show is very TNG were everyone loves each other and everyone always thinks happy thoughts.
Also I think it's time for Supergirl to have a major screwup that she has to solve. Flash had flashpoint and Oliver Queen has his murdering past and "Legends of Tommorow" has it's constant time travel screwups. Supergirl could really use some angst that goes beyond her feelings for her boyfriend or the old "I just want to be normal" trope that has been played out to death in these kind of shows.
Also the Luthor women whose name I keep forgetting and is friends with Kara should proably take over Kat Co because I just find the character kind of pointless if they aren't going to make her evil, plus if they want to keep using the sets they need a reason to be their because James Olsen seems to become a even more pointless character at this point.

Jason

 

[Gov Kodos]

Interesting that you accuse someone else of not reading while you bring up Superman v. Muhammad Ali. You are aware that fight was done under red sun lighting, so Superman didn't have his power, right? Or do you think Muhammad Ali was able to beat a guy who can juggle planets with no problem?

Is it that you don't read what you wrote or is it a memory issue?
You said ...

Having him whupped by anyone is out of character.

Shifting goal posts isn't helping your argument.

 

[Mudd]

Having him whupped by anyone is out of character.

Well, that's a very condescending comment, but the character has lasted nearly 80 years for a reason, and it's not just because 8 year olds like him.

What's condescending? It's a reasonable statement defending the overall stature of American literature.

It's been a long time since I was eight years old, and I love Superman. That doesn't require exaggerating the virtues of a child's story beyond all good sense.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Character traits define personality. Being out of character is when a character's personality is inconsistent with their character traits. A character established as unyieldingly honest who inexplicably starts compulsively lying is out of character.

Being virtually invulnerable has nothing to do with personality, so it's not a character trait, and getting whupped in and of itself can't be being out of character.

 

[Mudd]

Exactly so.

What would have been out of character for Superman would be to sulk or protest or deny his loss in a fair fight or, alternatively, to gloat and boast in victory over an opponent.

 

[doylem1]

Just watched the fight again and i don't believe Superman should ness be any more powerful than Supergirl, it all depends on how much solar energy that each has stored up.

So if both have equal amounts of energy it comes down to these things in a fight
1. Skill
2. Luck
3. Natural strength just what is the difference between the 2 without superpowers. With superpowers this difference for me is a negligible as it wouldn't come to much into play.

Kara got lucky with the uppercut that took Superman down. Notice how she herself collapsed exhausted afterwards, and if that punch hadn't nailed Superman and the fight went on i can only see him winning in a more protracted fight.

She has the punching power to knock Superman out with the right connection. The same goes for Wonder Women, Mary Marvel, Miss Martian, Maxima and a few others who escape me at this moment.

I didn't see Superman during the fight being depowered. He didn't get his butt kicked. He dished out more to Kara than she did to him, but he failed to land a knockout blow, she caught him in the perfect spot that would have knocked 100% of anybody out if caught there.