Do people still believe in Hell?

[Amaris]

I won't argue with anyone's personal experience of a dead loved one but at this point in my life I think it's a projection of the brain, yeah. Brain chem can do sooo many things, just look at the whacked out realities people swear they existed in taking certain hallucingenics. It's not the drug that gives them those realities, it's what the drug does to the brain, the brain itself does it. I know I've had some intense experiences after someone died that I think was my brain just LIT UP and focussed on that person.

That said I don't know if I had a severe grief and had such an experience if I would be willing to see it this way. Maybe I'd feel like there was more to it.

Oh, I don't argue with their avowed experiences. As I've said before, I'm sure these people experience these things, but the brain is a complicated organism, and it will absolutely tell you whatever it is you want to see and hear if you want it badly enough. I miss my dog, she brought me so much joy. Sometimes, I feel that I can almost see her, or hear her. Sometimes I believe she's lying right next to me while I sleep. I want it to be true so badly, but I know it isn't. Our brain can play so many painful tricks on us.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

There isn't anyway, because it's all an assumption. As long as there is no evidence to support the existence of a god, then god can be a woman who is a ninja enthusiast living in Cleveland, who only appears when she, or any aspect of her, is not observed. You would have just as much evidence as any Abrahamic religion. If I said God was a mighty unicorn who transcends space-time and exists outside of the universe, you couldn't prove me wrong. Again, I would have just as much evidence as Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, would have in proving the existence of their god. So you could ask this question all day, until the end of the week, the year, the decade, the century, your lifespan, humanity's existence, until the Sun went cold and dead in space, and until space itself went cold and endlessly dark, and until you get an answer, it's all wool gathering because there isn't a single shred of evidence that the being of which you speak actually exists.

Thank you for that reply..... More to think about.

I am not a believer but if I were I'd have to wonder why a god would create a universe so vast, and so complex, and yet only populate one planet with any kind of life.

 

[Refuge]

It is a copout. It's not free will when you have a gun to your head and told to pick the right option, without knowing which option is the right one, and worse, the right option differs depending upon who is holding the gun. That's not free will, that's Russian Roulette mixed with extortion.

I don't see it that way. Leaps of faith are called faith for a reason. Who is holding this gun? Why is the person unable to work out that good is better than bad and Heaven sounds better than Hell? Doesn't seem that hard to me.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't see it that way. Leaps of faith are called faith for a reason. Who is holding this gun? Why is the person unable to work out that good is better than bad and Heaven sounds better than Hell? Doesn't seem that hard to me.

We're not talking about be a serial killer vs don't be a serial killer here. Yes we can all work that out. The biblical hell we're threatened with is believe in this god in this way or else you're fucked. Burning forever. No this isn't something people can work out because there are gazillions of people leading good, happy, productive, loving lives who don't believe in that particular god and have no reason to do so.

 

[Refuge]

Oh, I don't argue with their avowed experiences. As I've said before, I'm sure these people experience these things, but the brain is a complicated organism, and it will absolutely tell you whatever it is you want to see and hear if you want it badly enough. I miss my dog, she brought me so much joy. Sometimes, I feel that I can almost see her, or hear her. Sometimes I believe she's lying right next to me while I sleep. I want it to be true so badly, but I know it isn't. Our brain can play so many painful tricks on us.

I missed my beloved dog too, ached. Had dreams and didn't want to wake from them because it was a cheats way of having my dog back. I still miss my dog.

I'm not going to bore you by monopolising. My Mother didn't want it to be a religious experience. She would have been happy that it was a brain or emotional fallout. She is a woman in seventies and has lived a life and experienced much. This was something she tells me was my Brother visiting her. That's all.

 

[Amaris]

Thank you for that reply..... More to think about.

I am not a believer but if I were I'd have to wonder why a god would create a universe so vast, and so complex, and yet only populate one planet with any kind of life.

I had that question when I was a believer.

I don't see it that way. Leaps of faith are called faith for a reason. Who is holding this gun? Why is the person unable to work out that good is better than bad and Heaven sounds better than Hell? Doesn't seem that hard to me.

It doesn't seem hard to you because you accept the faith you already have. Have a man hold a gun to your head and force you to vow allegiance to the Celery God, lest you die and burn in eternal torment. To him, the choice is obvious, because the Celery God is love. To you, it's absurd, because you're a Christian who does not worship false gods, lest you go to hell. Now, multiply it by 1,000,000 personal faiths and religions. Are you seeing where the problem arises?

 

[Refuge]

We're not talking about be a serial killer vs don't be a serial killer here. Yes we can all work that out. The biblical hell we're threatened with is believe in this god in this way or else you're fucked. Burning forever. No this isn't something people can work out because there are gazillions of people leading good, happy, productive, loving lives who don't believe in that particular god and have no reason to do so.

If that is the way it works, that is the way it works. I have no problem it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If that is the way it works, that is the way it works. I have no problem it.

So if your mom dies tomorrow she's going to hell and you think this system is fine?

That's awful.

 

[Refuge]

I had that question when I was a believer.


It doesn't seem hard to you because you accept the faith you already have. Have a man hold a gun to your head and force you to vow allegiance to the Celery God, lest you die and burn in eternal torment. To him, the choice is obvious, because the Celery God is love. To you, it's absurd, because you're a Christian who does not worship false gods, lest you go to hell. Now, multiply it by 1,000,000 personal faiths and religions. Are you seeing where the problem arises?

I really am trying to understand this. Do you mean that some people force others to believe in something otherwise they are damned?

 

[Refuge]

So if your mom dies tomorrow she's going to hell and you think this system is fine?

That's awful.

Please don't be mean about my Mother. I love her.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Please don't be mean about my Mother. I love her.

But it's okay for God to be mean to your mother for all of eternity if she dies without believing in him?

 

[Amaris]

I really am trying to understand this. Do you mean that some people force others to believe in something otherwise they are damned?

I mean that you're saying people have a choice, they have free will, and they'll be rewarded if they believe in the same God you do, but they'll die in eternal punishment if they don't. You immediately make the assumption that your faith is the correct faith, and that anyone who doesn't choose it deserves to die in eternal torment. If there were truly free will as ordained by your god, then that god would not hesitate to make himself clearly and readily known. Otherwise, he lies in wait to see which door you choose, knowing that you have a million options from which to choose, without having the evidence upon which to make that choice. It is evil.

 

[Jayson1]

Space is big. Even if we stick to our galactic neighborhood, you're talking a hundred thousand light years from one side to the other. Radio signals move at the speed of light, so that means in the past 80 years since a strong enough signal could leap out into space, the first signal has traveled about 80 light years. 80 light years out of 100,000 light years is 0.08% (someone feel free to check my math). This means that it will take 1,000 years for that signal to travel 1,000 light years. That's here, in our galaxy.

The nearest galaxy to our own is the M31 "Andromeda" galaxy. It is approximately 2,500,000 light years away. Space is big.

So yeah, even if there's a civilization in our galaxy, they could be on the other side of it, which is a nice little 75,000 to 100,000 year journey before the signal would reach them, let alone wait for their response, which would be another 75,000 to 100,000 year trip. It would be the galaxy's fastest AOL connection, but also impractical as a method for communication. Hell, let's drop them 10,000 light years away. If we look at recent human history, you would receive a 10,000 light year distant signal today, if it was sent to us shortly after the end of the Ice Age. 10,000 light years isn't even a drop in the bucket in looking at the size of the universe and its 92+ billion light years.

So, you know, space is big.


What has no beginning and no end? Even the universe has a beginning and end. Time has a beginning and end. All things begin and end.


I don't dismiss that people believe they've had visions, or near death experiences. What I doubt is that it actually happened, in any form, outside of the brain. Everything that makes it possible for us to perceive what goes on around us is in those 3 lbs of gray matter. When something goes wonky, our perceptions can go skewed right along with it. I am an atheist. I do not believe, based on the current level of evidence given, that there is a god, or gods, though I keep my mind open to the possibility that I am wrong. That said, I have found no evidence to support any of the world's religions in their claims. As far as I'm concerned, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and all the other isms, anities, and such are myths.

As for time having a beginning and a end I just don't believe in that concept. Every beginning comes from something else that is ending or to be more exact is something that is changing. When the universe was formed I see it simply as a change happening within the concept of infinity and when the universe someday ends I asume something else will replace it but infinity and time will continue.

As for the near death stuff I think the thing that makes me pause is the fact that they seem so positive and also people can recall them, almost like a memory. If a brain is dying how is producing any kind of narrative at all? Why isn't it just random images being spewed out of a dying brain. PLus their are things that go beyond just the visions.
I remember when I was younger I returned home after spending the summer with my dad and I got home I was told my great grandmother had died yet I somehow knew this before anyone said anything about it. My Grandma I recall talked about how she felt to need to go to her house, who was only a few houses away more on instinct and that was how she found out her dead. Also I had a cousin die in a car accident but before he died he was still alive for awhile. Somehow some kid who I think was at his late mom's house saw a picture of his mom on the wall, had no idea who she was said she saw her and was their to be with her son. Kind of forgot some of the details on the story but I do know that it was something pretty hard to dismiss at the time.
Who knows maybe all this is dreams or maybe even instinct much in the way a dog knows in theory when it's going to die but it does make me not dismiss it so fast.

Jason

 

[Refuge]

But it's okay for God to be mean to your mother for all of eternity if she dies without believing in him?

I shouldn't have introduced my Mother's experience into the forum. It was something personal but our family is raw at the loss of my Brother and it was just something spiritual or a brain reaction that happened to her. I thought it meant something in relation to what Jason was talking about regards the afterlife. It is my fault for introducing her into this. That being said I have my beliefs and sacrificing them is not going to change the way I believe things are. Calling one to task about it achieves.. nothing.

I do pray for my Mother as a non-believer, she would mock me for it, but I do anyway. I'm just astounded that someone would use her to score points against me in an argument.

 

[Refuge]

I mean that you're saying people have a choice, they have free will, and they'll be rewarded if they believe in the same God you do, but they'll die in eternal punishment if they don't. You immediately make the assumption that your faith is the correct faith, and that anyone who doesn't choose it deserves to die in eternal torment. If there were truly free will as ordained by your god, then that god would not hesitate to make himself clearly and readily known. Otherwise, he lies in wait to see which door you choose, knowing that you have a million options from which to choose, without having the evidence upon which to make that choice. It is evil.

Actually I don't want people to suffer.. I want them to be saved. However I believe in it. By not believing in it I would be lying to myself, as I would be still thinking it was true. I get that others might not like God or Heaven and Hell but that is different than wanting someone not to believe as way of punishing the way things are.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I shouldn't have introduced my Mother's experience into the forum. It was something personal but our family is raw at the loss of my Brother and it was just something spiritual or a brain reaction that happened to her. I thought it meant something in relation to what Jason was talking about regards the afterlife. It is my fault for introducing her into this. That being said I have my beliefs and sacrificing them is not going to change the way I believe things are. Calling one to task about it achieves.. nothing.

I do pray for my Mother as a non-believer, she would mock me for it, but I do anyway. I'm just astounded that someone would use her to score points against me in an argument.

That is not what is happening at all.

You said that if the system god has in place means that gazillions of perfectly nice people will go to hell if they don't believe in him you were totally fine with that. You have "no problem with it" if that's the way it works, to quote you. So I'm asking, since the vast billions out there can seem impersonal if you have "no problem with it" when it applies to your own loved one who is not believing in the god with the gun.

 

[Amaris]

As for time having a beginning and a end I just don't believe in that concept. Every beginning comes from something else that is ending or to be more exact is something that is changing. When the universe was formed I see it simply as a change happening within the concept of infinity and when the universe someday ends I asume something else will replace it but infinity and time will continue.

As for the near death stuff I think the thing that makes me pause is the fact that they seem so positive and also people can recall them, almost like a memory. If a brain is dying how is producing any kind of narrative at all? Why isn't it just random images being spewed out of a dying brain. PLus their are things that go beyond just the visions.
I remember when I was younger I returned home after spending the summer with my dad and I got home I was told my great grandmother had died yet I somehow knew this before anyone said anything about it. My Grandma I recall talked about how she felt to need to go to her house, who was only a few houses away more on instinct and that was how she found out her dead. Also I had a cousin die in a car accident but before he died he was still alive for awhile. Somehow some kid who I think was at his late mom's house saw a picture of his mom on the wall, had no idea who she was said she saw her and was their to be with her son. Kind of forgot some of the details on the story but I do know that it was something pretty hard to dismiss at the time.
Who knows maybe all this is dreams or maybe even instinct much in the way a dog knows in theory when it's going to die but it does make me not dismiss it so fast.

Jason

Instead of navel gazing, start studying! These are the kinds of questions that have answers, or at least can lead to answers with further study.

NDEs:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/
http://www.livescience.com/19106-death-experiences-lucid-dreams.html
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0057620
http://iands.org/research/publications/journal-of-near-death-studies.html (This one has indexes to peer reviewed articles on the subject)

The nature of time:
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
http://www.physics-astronomy.com/2016/05/according-to-einstein-time-is-illusion.html
https://phys.org/news/2015-03-universe-finite-infinite.html

Just be wary of what you read. While grabbing these quick articles to start you on your way, I encountered every single piece of slick salesmanship there is from sites based on the Bible, or astrology, or trying to sell you on some kind of magic cure for what ails you. No wonder people find it so difficult to understand how science works.

 

[Amaris]

Actually I don't want people to suffer.. I want them to be saved. However I believe in it. By not believing in it I would be lying to myself, as I would be still thinking it was true. I get that others might not like God or Heaven and Hell but that is different than wanting someone not to believe as way of punishing the way things are.

If you accept that your path is true, your God is the true God, and that God is just and merciful, then you also accept that people going to hell for not choosing the correct path out of millions of paths to be fair and equitable. You accept someone's eternal damnation as just and righteous, as acceptable punishment for not following your beliefs. This is the price of believing in this ideology where hell exists.

 

[Refuge]

As for time having a beginning and a end I just don't believe in that concept. Every beginning comes from something else that is ending or to be more exact is something that is changing. When the universe was formed I see it simply as a change happening within the concept of infinity and when the universe someday ends I asume something else will replace it but infinity and time will continue.

As for the near death stuff I think the thing that makes me pause is the fact that they seem so positive and also people can recall them, almost like a memory. If a brain is dying how is producing any kind of narrative at all? Why isn't it just random images being spewed out of a dying brain. PLus their are things that go beyond just the visions.
I remember when I was younger I returned home after spending the summer with my dad and I got home I was told my great grandmother had died yet I somehow knew this before anyone said anything about it. My Grandma I recall talked about how she felt to need to go to her house, who was only a few houses away more on instinct and that was how she found out her dead. Also I had a cousin die in a car accident but before he died he was still alive for awhile. Somehow some kid who I think was at his late mom's house saw a picture of his mom on the wall, had no idea who she was said she saw her and was their to be with her son. Kind of forgot some of the details on the story but I do know that it was something pretty hard to dismiss at the time.
Who knows maybe all this is dreams or maybe even instinct much in the way a dog knows in theory when it's going to die but it does make me not dismiss it so fast.

Jason

I've heard of such stories too. Like people just knowing at the exact time or even before when another dies.

 

[Jayson1]

Actually I don't want people to suffer.. I want them to be saved. However I believe in it. By not believing in it I would be lying to myself, as I would be still thinking it was true. I get that others might not like God or Heaven and Hell but that is different than wanting someone not to believe as way of punishing the way things are.

Why would God hold humans up to some rule than can easily be forgiven by any decent person? Why would God care if people make a mistake and pick the wrong religion or simply aren't convinced well enough to believe in something. If you were God would you really be okay with people going to hell because of a mistake?
Jason