What did Kirk say to Spock?

[Gingerbread Demon]

In TUC there's a scene where they find a dead crewmember and he's slumped in a corridor having been shot at close range. Kirk whispers something to Spock as if he knows who or what is going on. I've always wondered what he might have known or suspected.

I think this scene is just before the one in sickbay with Spock.

 

[David cgc]

Given that Spock's answer is, "It's possible," my guess is Kirk was looking at the corpses and formulating the plan for the next scene, so he checks with Spock if he thinks it might be possible, theoretically, for someone to survive being shot directly in the head with a phaser set to stun. If Spock had said, "Not a chance in hell," they wouldn't have been able to bluff the assassin by putting out the message on the all-call saying Burke and Samno had survived the murder attempt and were ready to make their deathbed confessions.

It seems like a medical question to me, but McCoy was examining the bodies and Spock was standing right there, and he'd probably know, too.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Given that Spock's answer is, "It's possible," my guess is Kirk was looking at the corpses and formulating the plan for the next scene, so he checks with Spock if he thinks it might be possible, theoretically, for someone to survive being shot directly in the head with a phaser set to stun. If Spock had said, "Not a chance in hell," they wouldn't have been able to bluff the assassin by putting out the message on the all-call saying Burke and Samno had survived the murder attempt and were ready to make their deathbed confessions.

It seems like a medical question to me, but McCoy was examining the bodies and Spock was standing right there, and he'd probably know, too.

OK I can buy that. I had always thought that he had suspected Valeris, and don't ask me how but I thought that maybe he had a feeling she was a bit off.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I read the scene as Kirk sharing his suspicions about Valeris to Spock. He probably said something like, "Hey, you know that log entry of mine that was used against me at my trial? Valeris was right outside my cabin when I recorded that. I think she might be in on this thing, and maybe she even murdered Burke and Samno."

Spock thinks it over for a moment, compares Kirk's information with what he's learned about there being a conspirator aboard ship (the torpedo logs were altered, remember), and replies, "It's possible."

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I read the scene as Kirk sharing his suspicions about Valeris to Spock. He probably said something like, "Hey, you know that log entry of mine that was used against me at my trial? Valeris was right outside my cabin when I recorded that. I think she might be in on this thing, and maybe she even murdered Burke and Samno."

Spock thinks it over for a moment, compares Kirk's information with what he's learned about there being a conspirator aboard ship (the torpedo logs were altered, remember), and replies, "It's possible."

OK that makes more sense now and it's the right answer, just I don't know why that one scene had me guessing. Because later on in sickbay she turns up.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

OK that makes more sense now and it's the right answer, just I don't know why that one scene had me guessing. Because later on in sickbay she turns up.

I'm assuming they formulated that plan between scenes.

 

[Timo]

Both interpretations sound fine to me, and the first one really is rather cool.

I'm not sure it would make perfect sense for Kirk to suspect Valeris specifically at this point. If he did, why bother to entrap? He'd be well within his usual godlike rights to simply have Valeris put in chains and interrogated by Spock: the logic of coming clean once caught, the illogic of trying to wiggle out with silly lies, and the fallback means of melding should make scheming and plotting the less effective alternative of getting the truth out of the wrongdoer. If Valeris is innocent, then Kirk will just say "As you were, Mister, now hop on back to your duties".

Yes, evidence is mounting that the saboteur has access to top officer stuff. Obviously this is used in order to further frame Kirk himself, but is the real villain a top officer him- or herself? A grunt (say, one of the waiters) might be able to hide the uniforms in the incriminating spot; a grunt might lure Burke and Samno to Kirk's doorstep to be stunned and then killed. A skilled spy could hold any rank while accessing Kirk's computers. So Kirk can't really know.

Looking at this from the other angle, what Valeris has done so far is not incriminating. She's not the one stalling the investigation: Chekov is, with his usual incompetence. Uhura has lots of access to computers (and potentially to Kirk's logs, too); she's the one who first falsely confirmed that Kirk's ship fired the torps; and she, like Chekov, is one of the outspoken racists aboard (not that there'd be a shortage).

So a trap to sort out the multiple suspects makes sense. But Kirk could still be saying "I think it's Valeris, but I need to know" and Spock could do his usual mental whirring and clicking and to his own surprise realize that his pet student really is a likely suspect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

And now I have an urge to watch this later tonight again. It's one of my favourites of the original movies.

 

[KennyB]

Yeah I had always taken it to be the plan to smoke them out. I don't know if he suspected Valeris at that point just knowing someone survived would make the killer try again. Seeing just how PISSED Spock was when he slapped the phaser, I think he did NOT suspect her. Just my take.

 

[DonIago]

IIRC the novelization explicitly mentions that the use of Kirk's personal log during the trial is one of the things that leads him to suspect Valeris. After all, she's standing right there when he records the words that help to damn him later. Sure it could have been a coincidence, but...

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

IIRC the novelization explicitly mentions that the use of Kirk's personal log during the trial is one of the things that leads him to suspect Valeris. After all, she's standing right there when he records the words that help to damn him later. Sure it could have been a coincidence, but...

Yes but novels tend to be different to movies and can have much more detail in them then a film... I sometimes prefer the book version of a film for that reason, not all the time mind you but sometimes.

I just finished the movie 15 minutes ago and oh my it's still entertaining.

So we had Colonel West, The Romulan ambassador, Chang, and Cartwright in on the plan. I had to wonder if there were any others in on the plan. Valeris obviously knew.

Her comment on Klingons and Starfleet conspiring together. Was she right? I do wonder. But the peace process happened so maybe she wasn't.

 

[DonIago]

While the novelization can be different, in this case I don't believe the details are substantially so. We see Kirk's doorway is open as he's recording his entry, and Valeris walks in immediately after. Kirk even remarks, "You could have knocked..."

There must have been at least some collusion between the Klingons and Starfleet, as it's the BoP that disables Kronos One while it's Enterprise crewmen who assassinate Gorkon. I suppose you could argue that they decided to simply take advantage of an unexpected situation, but...

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

While the novelization can be different, in this case I don't believe the details are substantially so. We see Kirk's doorway is open as he's recording his entry, and Valeris walks in immediately after. Kirk even remarks, "You could have knocked..."

There must have been at least some collusion between the Klingons and Starfleet, as it's the BoP that disables Kronos One while it's Enterprise crewmen who assassinate Gorkon. I suppose you could argue that they decided to simply take advantage of an unexpected situation, but...

But why would all those people loose out if peace happened?

We don't have a military any more do we?
We don't have money worries do we?

Just it didn't make sense as to what was so bad about peace?

 

[DonIago]

Some people are terrified of change.

Even in Beyond, Balthazar Edison didn't easily adapt to peace.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Looking at this from the other angle, what Valeris has done so far is not incriminating. She's not the one stalling the investigation: Chekov is, with his usual incompetence. Uhura has lots of access to computers (and potentially to Kirk's logs, too); she's the one who first falsely confirmed that Kirk's ship fired the torps; and she, like Chekov, is one of the outspoken racists aboard (not that there'd be a shortage).

Suppose it had been one of the seven? Yikes.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm not sure it would make perfect sense for Kirk to suspect Valeris specifically at this point. If he did, why bother to entrap?

Because he needed to confirm his suspicions and get Valeris to incriminate herself.

is the real villain a top officer him- or herself? A grunt (say, one of the waiters) might be able to hide the uniforms in the incriminating spot; a grunt might lure Burke and Samno to Kirk's doorstep to be stunned and then killed.

Well, Burke and Samno were basically grunts. That was kind of the point of the conspiracy. It went as high as Starfleet's Admiralty, the Romulan Ambassador, and Chancellor Gorkon's entourage all the way down to two relatively anonymous Enterprise crewmen.

Looking at this from the other angle, what Valeris has done so far is not incriminating.

Which is why Kirk and Spock did the sickbay trap. They knew the shipboard message would likely lure Burke and Samno's killer to sickbay.

Seeing just how PISSED Spock was when he slapped the phaser, I think he did NOT suspect her. Just my take.

I think Spock was just enraged to have his and Kirk's suspicions about Valeris confirmed. Kirk had obviously suspected her for longer, though. I don't think the possibility of Valeris being a traitor crossed Spock's mind until Kirk suggested it. ("I was prejudiced by her accomplishments as a Vulcan.")

IIRC the novelization explicitly mentions that the use of Kirk's personal log during the trial is one of the things that leads him to suspect Valeris.

So does the movie.

VALERIS: I did not fire. You cannot prove anything.
KIRK: Yes I can. At my trial my personal log was used against me. ...How long did you wait outside my quarters before I noticed you?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I missed that last line of dialog from Kirk about his quarters. I always miss that bit of the scene .... OK so he did know, or at least suspect.

 

[The Toddler]

On the same topic, why did Valeris head to sickbay with a phaser? Wouldn't she have expected to find a full medical staff there, not to mention the court reporter, and possibly other senior officers? And shouldn't she have known something was up when the whole place was dark? Or did she know she was caught and was willing to kill Burke and Samno in front of everyone?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

On the same topic, why did Valeris head to sickbay with a phaser? Wouldn't she have expected to find a full medical staff there, not to mention the court reporter, and possibly other senior officers? And shouldn't she have known something was up when the whole place was dark? Or did she know she was caught and was willing to kill Burke and Samno in front of everyone?

I'm thinking the latter. She knew she had been found out so by then there was no reason not to kill them even if there were witnesses.

What about Spock's forced mind meld?

I find that troubling.

 

[DonIago]

I find what Spock did a little troubling, but I'm not really sure what other options Our Heroes had at the time either. The novelization, for better or worse, "handwaves" this a bit by having Valeris, in her mind, consent to Spock.