Loose lipped Poe

[Shinzon4u]

He's not as dumb as is being portrayed. It's more of an expectation of what will occur, since, frankly, it happened in the past.

Secondly, the Emperor is myopic. He wants to destroy any threat, from Luke to the Rebellion. So, if Vader kills Luke, the Emperor wins. If Luke kills Vader, then his anger will consume him, the Emperor will capture his friends and use his fear to corrupt him.

But it's bad writing. The Emperor having hubris is not relevant to the fact that making Luke mad *does not give him a motivation to join Palp, it merely-wait for it- makes Luke mad*.

I lose patience with you. If this exact scenario was in the PT, it would be called out for the bad writing it is.

 

[fireproof78]

But it's bad writing. The Emperor having hubris is not relevant to the fact that making Luke mad *does not give him a motivation to join Palp, it merely-wait for it- makes Luke mad*.

I lose patience with you. If this exact scenario was in the PT, it would be called out for the bad writing it is.

Hmm...did I say it wasn't bad writing?

I just saying I understand it and connect with all of the characters. In other words, it might be bad writing, but it makes sense within the context of the scene, and the larger world building.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Hmm...did I say it wasn't bad writing?

I just saying I understand it and connect with all of the characters. In other words, it might be bad writing, but it makes sense within the context of the scene, and the larger world building.

Then why are you even replying to me as is trying to refute my claim. Don't answer that, i'm tired of talking in circles with you.

 

[fireproof78]

Then why are you even replying to me as is trying to refute my claim. Don't answer that, i'm tired of talking in circles with you.

Take care

As a final note, I think Obi-Wan states that Luke's feelings can be used to serve the Emperor. So, there is clearly some concern about Luke's emotions, his anger, and his fear. Also, it is alluded to in ESB. They build upon each other quite well.

And, I'm glad that you like the PT too.

 

[Shinzon4u]

As a final note, I think Obi-Wan states that Luke's feelings can be used to serve the Emperor. So, there is clearly some concern about Luke's emotions, his anger, and his fear. Also, it is alluded to in ESB. They build upon each other quite well

This is not relevant. That's all well and good, but nothing can explain away the Emperor's shocking lapse in logic. Luke has zero motivation at any point to JOIN him.
Anakin has motivation to join the dark side WITH Palp, Luke does not.

 

[Awesome Possum]

What the hell?
You didn't refute anything.
My suggestions for Leia would have taken minimal extra time and would not have put Yavin at risk, and for the RotJ thing you just said "It's how movies are supposed to be made, it's not the best plan though.".

Where are they going to get a ship? Rent-a-car? The Death Star follows them there, there's another battle leading to the potential capture of Leia or R2. Its needlessly complicates the story and makes the ending less exciting because they no longer have the looming threat of the Death Star coming into firing range. Because if the Empire didn't follow them, they can't be a threat and the Rebels can find a solution at their leisure.

As for Jedi, when I say that's how movies are made I mean we are shown Luke being tempted through his performance. That's a big word for acting. Luke is shown trying to resist the Dark Side until Vader finds a weak spot sending him into a rage. Luke nearly kills Vader only stopping because he literally sees Vader as his possible future, visualized by both having mechanical hands. He's even shown about to follow the Emperor's orders and kill his father. The scene was even set up in Empire Strikes Back during Luke's vision in the cave.

You do understand that movies are visual storytelling don't you? They aren't supposed to be some detailed explanation for events and details can be smudged if it makes the story more entertaining.

Let me borrow your mindset and appeal to society here.

"One of the least satisfying situations in all the movies was exactly why it was that the Emperor thought Luke Skywalker could be won over to the Dark Side of the Force. He never gave him very good reasons, apart from vague promises about "the Power" and exhortations to let out his anger and hatred. That Luke could resist this was not so surprising. The greatest challenge for Lucas was to do better this time. He does."
source: http://www.friesian.com/starwars.htm

The Emperor was trying to tempt Luke into the Dark Side using his friends as bait, the one thing that Luke would do anything to help even throwing himself into danger. We aren't given his multi point plan in detail. But it seems that he wanted to tempt him into the Dark Side and kill Vader all in an attempt to kill the Emperor, Luke is no match to the Emperor alone so he'd fail and still be in the Dark Side.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out, I knew what was happening when I was four.

 

[fireproof78]

This is not relevant. That's all well and good, but nothing can explain away the Emperor's shocking lapse in logic. Luke has zero motivation at any point to JOIN him.
Anakin has motivation to join the dark side WITH Palp, Luke does not.

I thought it was relevant because it showed the path to the Dark Side. Yoda is even expressing that concern when Luke decides to end his training early and go try and rescue Han and Leia. So, there is a susceptibility there established earlier in the narrative that the Emperor expects to exploit, much like he did with Anakin.

I'll agree that it is a lapse and logic, and that goes back to the Emperor's overconfidence, but it also goes back to Luke's fear, which leads to the Dark Side.

Also, what @Awesome Possum said.

 

[Shinzon4u]

The Emperor was trying to tempt Luke into the Dark Side using his friends as bait, the one thing that Luke would do anything to help even throwing himself into danger. We aren't given his multi point plan in detail. But it seems that he wanted to tempt him into the Dark Side and kill Vader all in an attempt to kill the Emperor, Luke is no match to the Emperor alone so he'd fail and still be in the Dark Side.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out, I knew what was happening when I was four.

1). you still haven't refuted the Leia point because my suggestions are more logical than what happens in the film
2). yet again, Luke falling to the dark side=/=Luke joining the Emperor

 

[Shinzon4u]

I thought it was relevant because it showed the path to the Dark Side. Yoda is even expressing that concern when Luke decides to end his training early and go try and rescue Han and Leia. So, there is a susceptibility there established earlier in the narrative that the Emperor expects to exploit, much like he did with Anakin.

I'll agree that it is a lapse and logic, and that goes back to the Emperor's overconfidence, but it also goes back to Luke's fear, which leads to the Dark Side.

And AGAIN, the Emperor having hubris is does excuse him being an idiot. Hubris what happened to Tarkin when he didn't evacuate. Being poorly written is what happened in RotJ.

 

[fireproof78]

And AGAIN, the Emperor having hubris is does excuse him being an idiot. Hubris what happened to Tarkin when he didn't evacuate. Being poorly written is what happened in RotJ.

Pretty sure in literature hubris results in people doing stupid things. So, I will disagree. It may be bad writing, the precedent is there and set up.

 

[Awesome Possum]

1). you still haven't refuted the Leia point because my suggestions are more logical than what happens in the film
2). yet again, Luke falling to the dark side=/=Luke joining the Emperor

1. I did by explaining how it served the story. It also fits into Leia's character because her main motivation is stopping the Death Star as quickly as possible, not taking a detour when time is of the essence.

2. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader all thought that it would happen if he fell to the Dark Side. Did you pay attention to the movie at all? I know there aren't as many pretty light saber fights, but there are actual characters and a story.

 

[fireproof78]

1. I did by explaining how it served the story. It also fits into Leia's character because her main motivation is stopping the Death Star as quickly as possible, not taking a detour when time is of the essence.

2. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader all thought that it would happen if he fell to the Dark Side. Did you pay attention to the movie at all? I know there aren't as many pretty light saber fights, but there are actual characters and a story.

Confession time-I always liked the ROTJ saber fight better than the ESB one. I think the emotional weight is greater.

 

[Shinzon4u]

1. I did by explaining how it served the story. It also fits into Leia's character because her main motivation is stopping the Death Star as quickly as possible, not taking a detour when time is of the essence.

2. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader all thought that it would happen if he fell to the Dark Side. Did you pay attention to the movie at all? I know there aren't as many pretty light saber fights, but there are actual characters and a story.

Okay. You're right. I'm wrong. RotJ is much better written than the PT. Luke's potential fall makes much more sense than Anakin and he has much more reason to join the Emperor than Anakin did.
At least I truly see.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Confession time-I always liked the ROTJ saber fight better than the ESB one. I think the emotional weight is greater.

I do too. The Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes are some of the best scenes in the franchise. When Luke snaps it actually feels like he's in danger of falling to the Dark Side.

 

[fireproof78]

I do too. The Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes are some of the best scenes in the franchise. When Luke snaps it actually feels like he's in danger of falling to the Dark Side.

There is a lot of tension, and the cutting from that battle to the space battle and the ground battle make it one of my favorite sequences. But, yeah, those scenes are fantastic.

 

[Shinzon4u]

I do too. The Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes are some of the best scenes in the franchise. When Luke snaps it actually feels like he's in danger of falling to the Dark Side.

And for the umpteenth time, falling to the dark side=/=joining the Emperor.

 

[fireproof78]

And for the umpteenth time, falling to the dark side=/=joining the Emperor.

Which is part of the tension, and something both Yoda and Obi-Wan had concerns about, so it must be more than just joining the Emperor. The Emperor isn't the only evil guy out there, and Yoda states that if Luke chooses the quick and easy path, then he will become an agent of evil, not just an agent of the Emperor.

I disagree with your supposition then, that the Dark Side automatically means "The Emperor." If Luke joined Vader at the end of ESB, would that have been falling to the Dark Side?

 

[Shinzon4u]

Which is part of the tension, and something both Yoda and Obi-Wan had concerns about, so it must be more than just joining the Emperor. The Emperor isn't the only evil guy out there, and Yoda states that if Luke chooses the quick and easy path, then he will become an agent of evil, not just an agent of the Emperor.

I disagree with your supposition then, that the Dark Side automatically means "The Emperor." If Luke joined Vader at the end of ESB, would that have been falling to the Dark Side?

He also has not motivation to do that in ESB either. The guy just cut off his hand. Even if he is his dad, it's clear that he doesn't care about Luke if he's willing to mutilate him.

 

[fireproof78]

He also has not motivation to do that in ESB either. The guy just cut off his hand. Even if he is his dad, it's clear that he doesn't care about Luke if he's willing to mutilate him.

What is a motivation to go to the Dark Side, then?

 

[Shinzon4u]

What is a motivation to go to the Dark Side, then?

Luke? He never has any in the films except maybe getting a little too angry here and there. And that is entirely separate from a motivation to join Papa Palp or Big V.
As I have illustrated, a motivation for Luke to actually join with them would have to be something like what happened to Anakin, where he is maneuvered into having to rely on Palp.