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Voyager fans.. are you disappointed about Discovery?

I did? It was actually an opinion I had, you know those things that are born of reaction and are one's own? I had the audacity to view Vulcans as having nobility. Spock my man or my Vulcan. Now I realise ENT came along after and shame on me but my view on Spock was mailny TOS but also the movies.

The movies.

Where we find out that Vulcans outright exile children who don't want to reject emotions? Cut them permanently off from their siblings, and literally make them walk the desert until they die?

Where T'Pau outright tells Spock that he'll never be a true Vulcan if he doesn't psychically lobotomise the human heritage out of himself?

Where we see Sarek practically vomit in disgust after seeing his newborn son was 'so human'? Whilst his human wife is busy shoving out the afterbirth not a foot away, no less. The dick.

Where Sarek ripped Kirk a new arsehole for not observing Vulcan funeral rituals, despite also admitting that Vulcans keep all that bullshit secret?

Those movies?
 
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Not to mention Vulcan children are dumped in the desert to test their survival skills at age 7.
 
Wow. I read all that, and have no idea what this argument is about. "Noble" isn't some objective quality, it's like a compliment you pay someone, and a sort of silly pretentious one, too, archaic, overblown. Who calls anyone "noble" anymore?
 
Not to mention Vulcan children are dumped in the desert to test their survival skills at age 7.

Where their father will sit back and watch as they have to euthenize their cats. Encourage them to do it with their bare hands, even!

Small wonder that guy in DS9 went serial killer. He was groomed.

Wow. I read all that, and have no idea what this argument is about. "Noble" isn't some objective quality,

Sure it is. 'Nobility' is the thing which tends to kill Game of Thrones protagonists.
 
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Wow. I read all that, and have no idea what this argument is about. "Noble" isn't some objective quality, it's like a compliment you pay someone, and a sort of silly pretentious one, too, archaic, overblown. Who calls anyone "noble" anymore?
It can be used that way, yes. But, I've also used it as a positive when working as a manager and supervising individuals.

Context is key.
 
There is nothing wrong with being called noble.. I meant it as a positive quality. Like in Wrath of Khan when Spock died. It was a noble act and sacrifice. Why is it so offensive that I can see or anyone can see nobility in another? The amounts of times Tuvok took a beating for another.

I refuse to see Vulcans through a one-dimensional filter or disregard the genuine impression I got from watching the Original and the following depictions of Vulcans. I'm not the only one who rates Vulcans as being a civilised culture that is not locked in its past. No other culture is either no matter what norms and rituals they still possess. There has to be a reason why Spock who epitomises a Vulcan characterisation more that a human one was set apart as this 'superior' example. The writing left that impression. However if other people have a mindset of Spock as some brute then that is what they saw.
 
There is nothing wrong with being called noble.. I meant it as a positive quality. Like in Wrath of Khan when Spock died. It was a noble act and sacrifice. Why is it so offensive that I can see or anyone can see nobility in another? The amounts of times Tuvok took a beating for another.

I refuse to see Vulcans through a one-dimensional filter or disregard the genuine impression I got from watching the Original and the following depictions of Vulcans. I'm not the only one who rates Vulcans as being a civilised culture that is not locked in its past. No other culture is either no matter what norms and rituals they still possess. There has to be a reason why Spock who epitomises a Vulcan characterisation more that a human one was set apart as this 'superior' example. The writing left that impression. However if other people have a mindset of Spock as some brute then that is what they saw.
I don't believe anyone is saying that being noble is "wrong." It's a disagreement as to the term assigned to the Vulcans, specifically, based upon what is shown in TOS. It would be more helpful if the impressions that TOS left upon you and how you define them as noble, because we're not all going to use the same descriptors.

As much as I like Spock, and even more with the Kelvin Trek, he might hold to Vulcan ideals, but that doesn't mean that all of Vulcan culture is like that. Again, as much as I like Vulcans, their culture has its ups and downs as well, and in some ways, yes, they are stuck in the past. What is the ritual of "pon farr" but a return to the Vulcan's more savage roots? Why is there all the rituals associated with death rites, Kholinar, and the like? It is all part of their cultural past that informs their current society.

Secondly, what's with the painting of the extremes? It's not like Spock only has two settings-"brute" or "noble." Spock was a very dynamic character, with incredibly strong emotions that he kept in check, most of the time. He was also able to strike a balance between the two as he became older. I would highly recommend the book "I am Spock" to see what Nimoy did as part of creating the character and the process he went through to do so.

Finally, I think Vulcans are like humans, in their culture. It's a mix of good and bad, things they are proud of (Surak) and things they are ashamed of (pon farr). TOS left the impression, at least on me, that it is a highly ritualized culture, and that even Spock struggled to find acceptance there.
 
Would a noble culture...

Be as openly racist as the Vulcans?
Allow bullying in their schools of children different to them?
Exile those with differing beliefs?
Let children die on unnecessary desert survival tests?

Spock makes up for being half human by acting extra Vulcan/Surakian. Like Worf and the Klingons, Spock actually embodies the ideals most Vulcans strive for but never achieve.

It's like, how many Christians do you know that really follow everything the bible says? Or do they just say they believe in God and heaven while pretty much doing whatever they want?
 
Guys I don't care you don't see Vulcans the way I did and do. I lost appreciating a different perspective the third time I read the same replies. I prefer to use my own brain, my own interpretations and enjoy my fiction in the manner I do. I think I was supposed to admire Spock and to see a nobility in Vulcans. The original writers imparted that to me.

What's with all the questions being asked of me to prove why I think the way I do? To define nobility over and over. I mean if you want to go over and over why you think the opposite I have no problem with that. Ease up, it's entertainment ;)
 
I lost appreciating a different perspective the third time I read the same replies.

It's a discussion board, not your personal blog with moderated comments. Whether you appreciate replies really doesn't fucking matter. We're speaking to each other as much as you.

What's with all the questions being asked of me to prove why I think the way I do?

Because 'claims presented without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'

Failing to even define the very thing your arguing for, is quiet a bit of lacking evidence. Enough to put a pin in the basic concept of 'communicating', even. 'Shared understanding' and all that.

I mean if you want to go over and over why you think the opposite I have no problem with that. Ease up, it's entertainment ;)

This would mean more if you'd never doubled down on your original post. Many times. With increasing belligerence.

Then wrote several paragraphs about how you really don't care. Really. You're still claiming that you're right of course, but this is truly silly you guys. Really, really.

Yeah...

5F60BCE4-6885-4CB2-9894-F764CB402FEA_zpstgwvelif.gif
 
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Hmmm. I'm starting to pick up that the argument has something to do with whether Vulcans are nice or not. Well, I prefer nicer TOS Vulcans to Berman era Vulcans. There, I'm done.
 
Hmmm. I'm starting to pick up that the argument has something to do with whether Vulcans are nice or not. Well, I prefer nicer TOS Vulcans to Berman era Vulcans. There, I'm done.

The argument was whether they were really shown to be that nice in TOS.

Turns out that most of their 'nicer appearances' were from TNG onwards. In TOS, their main role was to highlight Spock's status as permanent outcast from the groups he was born into. And in turn, the importance of the groups who he both chose and whom embraced him.

That resulted in...Vulcans spending a fair amount of time doing dickish things. Which 'back to the roots' ENT embraced, for better or worse.

And it all ties back to the OP (really), because no one knows if DIS may take a similar path in interpreting prior Trek material. Or whether it should.
 
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Thanks. Vulcans were mostly represented by Spock himself in TOS, and I want Vulcans to be generally of the same principles as Spock, and the way Spock sees them. Spock should also be an individual also, though.
 
I thought the argument per OP was about whether Discovery is going to be a hit or a miss based on the biases of Voyager fans..
 
Thanks. Vulcans were mostly represented by Spock himself in TOS, and I want Vulcans to be generally of the same principles as Spock, and the way Spock sees them. Spock should also be an individual also, though.

Spock wanted the Vulcans to share his principles as well. Because Spock aspired meet a rather high ideal, and naturally wanted others to not be a bunch of racist dickheads.

But in the end he acknowledged his people were still just people, and not one-dimensional paragons. They could be wrong. Their values could be wrong, or at least misguided.

For eg. Series Spock

Bones: Mister Spock, life and death are seldom logical.
Spock: But attaining a desired goal always is, doctor.

By the end of the TOS movies:
Valeris: But is it logical? Surely we must...
Spock: Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris. Not the end.

I'm personally fine with Spock being the model for Vulcan characters. He was a character with both flaws (bit of a hypocrite, stubbornness, arrogance) and virtues (brave, smart, loving, capable of introspection.) He developed over his appearances, growing out of said flaws. Heroes should be that way.

I thought the argument per OP was about whether Discovery is going to be a hit or a miss based on the biases of Voyager fans..

And some VOY fans claimed that they found the previous prequels approach to be a miss. One that they don't want repeated. They explained why they felt so.

Others fans didn't mind it, and wouldn't care so much. They also explained why.

Ergo: OP related.
 
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Thanks. Vulcans were mostly represented by Spock himself in TOS, and I want Vulcans to be generally of the same principles as Spock, and the way Spock sees them. Spock should also be an individual also, though.
Interesting that you got that TOS impression. So did many.
 
Interesting that you got that TOS impression. So did many.
Vulcans were created with meaning behind them. Instead of the typical 50s sci-fi movie treatment of unemotional aliens as being evil for that reason, the tables are turned, and defeat of emotion is presented as (only) one possible way out of humanity's problems. The unemotional alien is admirable. He's strong, stable, and on our side. It's not one-sided. Problems are presented with being like a Vulcan, they're flawed like anyone, but they're certainly more "human" and "humane" than present day humanity.
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24th century Vulcans were anal sticks-in-the-mud generally...
 
It's not one-sided. Problems are presented with being like a Vulcan, they're flawed like anyone, but they're certainly more "human" and "humane" than present day humanity.

Vulcans consider those terms to be insulting when applied to them. :p
 
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