Wonder Woman (2017)

[kirk55555]

So, wanting Clark to leave kids to die is done for "hope"? Stupidly dying by tornado was "hopeful"? Martha telling her son he shouldn't be a hero in BvS is said out of "hope"?

No one has to exagerate to show why Snyder's Superman is terrible and wrong, the evidence is not exactly subtle. Now, that doesn't mean you have to agree, but you really can't claim exaggeration. The only worse version of Superman I can think of is one or two really crappy Elseworlds versions. Snyder's characters are all brooding assholes, and both Superman and Batman specifically are cold blooded murderers. Coming from a director who has said he literally can't understand why someone with power wouldn't kill (again, he's a fan of Ayn Rand so his heroes being crap is completely unsurprising), there is absolutely no hope in his movies, outside of my (and a lot of people's) hope that between Wonder Woman and Geoff Johns gaining influence Snyder will get reigned in for JL (which seems to be happening) and then not do another DC film ever again. That's about the only thing "hopeful" connected to Zach Snyder at this point.

 

[DigificWriter]

So, wanting Clark to leave kids to die is done for "hope"? Stupidly dying by tornado was "hopeful"? Martha telling her son he shouldn't be a hero in BvS is said out of "hope"?

None of this is even remotely close to what actually happens. Jonathan and Martha are hopeful that Clark can and will eventually make a differrence, but they also want him to have a normal childhood free from responsibility and turmoil if their hopes prove to be unfounded.

If you're going to try and criticize something, don't resort to exaggerations, because all you're doing is torpedoing your own argument.

 

[dahj]

 

[DigificWriter]

Conversations about MoS and BvS are relevant to Wonder Woman discussion when the former are being used as justification to talk negatively about the latter, especially when said negativity is being based on exaggerations and hyperbolic rhetoric.

 

[Anwar]

None of this is even remotely close to what actually happens. Jonathan and Martha are hopeful that Clark can and will eventually make a differrence, but they also want him to have a normal childhood free from responsibility and turmoil if their hopes prove to be unfounded.

If you're going to try and criticize something, don't resort to exaggerations, because all you're doing is torpedoing your own argument.

It doesn't help that Clark doesn't seem to enjoy being Superman at all.

 

[dahj]

It doesn't help that Clark doesn't seem to enjoy being Superman at all.

 

[Anwar]

The one time he's really being happy in that film and it's when he's toying with the Military?

 

[dahj]

The one time he's really being happy in that film and it's when he's toying with the Military?

That's just the gif I had on hand because I already posted it a few pages back

As for your question, see here's the thing, I love MoS and especially BvS, and I always like talking about them, but not like this, not when it's evident that you don't really wanna hear why I see this Superman and the movies differently from you, you just want another excuse to publicly hate on them.

Anyway, I don't get why some of you always feel the need to jump at anyone that likes these movies...
All you'll get from me with that attitude is a snarky remark(and a smirky Superman gif).

 

[Tosk]

Anyway, I don't get why some of you always feel the need to jump at anyone that likes these movies...

I'd imagine it's the same reason that some people jump at anyone who doesn't like them. It's sometimes hard to see someone espousing an opinion opposite to your own without wanting to "correct" them somehow. We all fall victim to our instinct, even when we consciously try not to.

 

[ancient]

Superman Return was a "chick flick"

http://www.ksitetv.com/forums/showt...ld-be-(also)-called-my-first-chick-flick-quot

People griped that Superman Returns didn't have the action they wanted. He never punched anyone.

Man of Steel was created as the answer to all the things Superman Returns didn't answer

I think the real problem was that Superman was a wet blanket of a character. It's not like the Reeves Superman ran around punching things either in the original movie, but he had charisma.

 

[JD]

Who's this "people" you speak of?
You're free to like or dislike whatever you want, but don't elevate your argument as the will of "the people", it's super annoying, especially when it's patently false since these movies sold a lot of movie tickets and dvds, are all those people not people too?

CBR, Io9, and other posters here are the "people" I'm talking about. I honestly wasn't that bothered by Superman in the DCEU until I started reading articles from those sites and posts on here, and realized how .
I actually do like the movies, but even though I enjoy them overall, I still think they mishandeled Superman.

 

[mos6507]

^ Which would not play well with modern audience sensibilities.

Wrong.

"Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin (and probably others).

No matter how jaded and cynical and pessimistic society may be today, there's this kernel inside that wishes it were not so.

Superman represents that last little vestige of goodness. He's a fantasy character. He's aspirational.

Zack Snyder then had him utter "no one stays good in this world."

Zack Snyder managing the DCEU doesn't work because he's one of those cynics who is NOT a disappointed idealist. He's more of a nihilist and it shows in the muted color palettes and the forcing Superman to snap Zod's neck.

As for Wonder Woman, despite having to dovetail with Zack's look and feel and giving her Xena-like armor Patty Jenkins has stated she doesn't want WW to just be a grimdark badass but to embody some of the wholesomeness we associate with the Lynda Carter version. So I'm cautiously optimistic that this film might be better than people are expecting it to be.

That she actually uses the Donnerverse Superman as reference material shows that she's really on the anti-Snyder bandwagon as far as her opinion on what constitutes the perfect superhero.

Another article:

I don’t think there is one tone. I think maybe Christopher Nolan had a serious tone, and Zack [Snyder] has a different tone that is also serious in a different way. So I think it became a perception that there was one tone, but that’s not what I had heard. I heard that there were these different superheroes and I was coming in to make one. And I was supported it making it the tone I wanted to make it.​

She was given leeway to establish her own tone and it's not just some sort of corporate Zack Snyder cookie cutter approach. How far it actually deviates vs. her above promises, we shall see.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Conversations about MoS and BvS are relevant to Wonder Woman discussion when the former are being used as justification to talk negatively about the latter, especially when said negativity is being based on exaggerations and hyperbolic rhetoric.

Has ANYONE used talking about MoS & BvS to say that they belive Wonder Woman will be bad??? Those of us who aren't enthralled about those 2 movies are STILL HOPEFUL that Wonder Woman will break that trend.

The talk I have seen is that they would like the Wonder WOman movie to NOT make the mistakes..at this point everyone seems AT LEAST cautiously optimistic about that. ANd if so, WOnder Woman, among other accomplishments, will help revive the DC Film Universe and reduce criticism

 

[ancient]

I think the WB marketing office has gotten wind of the DC movies being criticized for being 'too dark' - remember that MoS and BvS underperformed compared to their Marvel counterparts. I think they are definitely making some course changes, trying to mix more humor into their movies.

They tried this with Suicide Squad and from their pov it seems to have worked because that movie was an amazing success - it made almost as much as the movie with both Batman AND Superman in it - AND was 30% cheaper to make than BvS. Maybe the WW movie will follow suit.

 

[mos6507]

They tried this with Suicide Squad

Suicide Squad had humor but it was plenty dark. I mean, come on, it's a group of anti-heroes (if you can call them heroes in the first place). We've yet to see a DCEU film (other than Green Lantern maybe, if you call that) which serves up a straight-laced good-guy style hero.

 

[Gaith]

Christ, enough with the rehashed Superman/MoS/BvS talking points already.

Has ANYONE used talking about MoS & BvS to say that they belive Wonder Woman will be bad??? Those of us who aren't enthralled about those 2 movies are STILL HOPEFUL that Wonder Woman will break that trend.

Indeed, though I'm apprehensive about this 2 hr 20 minute run time. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but this doesn't strike me as a movie that needs more than two hours to do its thing. Kirk meeta Wonder Woman, they fight battles, war is bad, Diana gets pissy and takes her ball and goes home.

If the villain (are we really bothering to pretend the likely antagonist identity is still a spoiler?!) tries to open up a sky-portal to another dimension, let there be riots in the cinemas.

 

[Tosk]

Christ, enough with the rehashed Superman/MoS/BvS talking points already.

Nah.

 

[dahj]

I'd imagine it's the same reason that some people jump at anyone who doesn't like them.

There's a fundamental difference there between defending something you like and attacking something you hate.

Say you don't like this movie, or something about it, and you complain about it, then someone who does like it comes and explains what they like about the thing you don't like. You can take that to heart and maybe enjoy the thing a bit more, or you're more then welcome to completely dismiss it, but why be actively hostile to it when it usually comes from a genuine desire that you enjoy something more...

cynical and pessimistic

Do you at least appreciate the irony of how cynical it is trying to convince people who don't view these movies as cynical that they are indeed cynical?

 

[Tosk]

and you complain about it, then someone who does like it comes and explains what they like about the thing you don't like. You can take that to heart and maybe enjoy the thing a bit more, or you're more then welcome to completely dismiss it,

What if you praise something, and someone comes and explains what they don't like about the thing you like. You can take that to heart and maybe be more critical of it, or you're more than welcome to completely dismiss it.

There's a fundamental difference there between defending something you like and attacking something you hate.

What is the fundamental difference?

 

[dahj]

What is the fundamental difference?

Dwelling on things you like -> good.
Dwelling on things you hate -> bad.