Wonder Woman (2017)
- Thread starter M.A.C.O.
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You are right on both counts, mate. Since Capt Marvel/Shazam hasn't had an ongoing solo title for decades now, Captain Nazi made a short appearance on Wonder Woman before The New 52. Like Red Skull, Zemo, Strucker and Master Man over at Marvel, Captain Nazi is still pretty raw about WW's contributions to the 3rd Reich's defeat in WWII. So, he launched a preemptive strike against Paradise Island. With hopes of invading and breeding a new race of Ubersmech.
"Nazis ruin everything." -- Nathaniel Heywood
Actually the story came from an idea of Captain Nazi vs Gorilla Grodd ( the Nazi supremacist vs the Ape supremacist) battling for control of the Society of Supervillains after Infinite Crisis due to Simone writing Villains United. It only became about WW because Simone got the writing job for the book.
Ah, that would explain the talking apes. Grodd never made it into the final story, and I was confused as to why Diana was housing a group of gorillas at her home.
This may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that what Snyder did was not what people want from a Superman story.
For a while now I've been thinking that the way the MCU has approached Captain America would also be a good way to approach Superman.
A lot of people feel that way. The dynamic wouldn't translate very well though.
If we look at Cap in the MCU movies he's been in so far, he's not always leading out front. In the two Avengers movies, Cap is the nice guy who is always talking about team work. Neither film is about him (mainly they're about Stark), so he doesn't get much focus. His solo films (the first two at least) are a better reflection of Cap, his valor and his principles. In TFA and TWS, he always has an obstacles to overcome, but those obstacles are clandestine organizations with aspirations for world domination. They feel like James Bond films at times.
With Civil War, things get tricky. Cap's position puts him at odds with the law, Avengers and government agencies. Rather than work with the system, he becomes a fugitive and enlists others to his cause. The initial message of Civil War (the accords), which would've put the Avengers under UN control, and politicians would decide who the Avengers target and what countries they would intervene in, got lost after the first act. It became about Steve and Bucky.
With Superman's powers, he just wouldn't allow himself to be controlled or dictated to by anyone. He says as much in MOS to General Swanwick, twice. Superman has yet to be on a team, so we don't know how he'll play with others.
Superman is a nice enough guy in the movies. Always helping others, standing up for people who can't stand up for themselves and showing immense retraint against his opponents (trucker, Batman, Luthor).
What exactly people demand of Superman is the issue. He has to have some sort of obstacle to overcome, in order for the audience to appreciate him. It's easier to do with a less powerful character like Batman, Daredevil, Spider-Man or Capt America. But for megaton characters like Superman, Thor, Hulk, how do you create intrique and appreciation? None of the Hulk movies have been huge successes, the biggest draw to the Thor IP is Loki, and Superman remains hot and cold with his reception.
I have my own answers to these questions, but these are things creators due struggle with.
I'm not necessarily talking about an exact 1-for-1 thing with Superman and Cap, I just meant an old fashioned guy who is suddenly having to deal with a more cynical world. My approach would be to treat Smallville as 1950s style small town, and then Metropolis as the modern big city. So we'd see Clark suddenly having to deal with a massive amount of culture shock as he went from one to the other.
^ Which would not play well with modern audience sensibilities.
Those who criticize Zack Snyder and David Goyer's version of Superman can only do so by exaggerating aspects of the character as he's presented and portraying said aspects in a negative light as if they dominate the character's personality, largely due to the fact that their argument doesn't actually stand up to logical scrutiny.
Those who criticize Zack Snyder and David Goyer's version of Superman can only do so by exaggerating aspects of the character as he's presented and portraying said aspects in a negative light as if they dominate the character's personality, largely due to the fact that their argument doesn't actually stand up to logical scrutiny.
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Who's this "people" you speak of?
You're free to like or dislike whatever you want, but don't elevate your argument as the will of "the people", it's super annoying, especially when it's patently false since these movies sold a lot of movie tickets and dvds, are all those people not people too?
He's what audiences wanted--more importantly, they did not want the Reeve 2.0 of Routh, Smallville, or anything else, other than a Superman with the basic virtues and struggles from generations' worth of storytelling. MOS/DOJ accomplished that, while still showing that this man raised in the most human, sensible of settings, still feels alien. That is a struggle millions relate to around the world (in a less fantastic sense).
It would be the wrong approach, as their life purpose, views on morality and how far they're willing to go are on opposite sides for very different reasons.
Superman Return was a "chick flick"
http://www.ksitetv.com/forums/showt...ld-be-(also)-called-my-first-chick-flick-quot
People griped that Superman Returns didn't have the action they wanted. He never punched anyone.
Man of Steel was created as the answer to all the things Superman Returns didn't answer
http://www.ksitetv.com/forums/showt...ld-be-(also)-called-my-first-chick-flick-quot
People griped that Superman Returns didn't have the action they wanted. He never punched anyone.
Man of Steel was created as the answer to all the things Superman Returns didn't answer
Holy cow! We actually agree on something.
Man of Steel made me a genuine FAN of the character of Superman by making him relatable, but without losing any of the things that inherently make him the character that he is in the comics and everywhere else that he's been featured pretty much since the 1970s, and BvS only continued that trend by sending him on a very believable journey and making him have to struggle to be the "big blue boy scout" character, which is exactly what would happen/does happen in real life.
It's not easy to be an inherently good person in this day and age, and BvS captured/illustrated that perfectly.
I don't get the obsession with making Superman grounded or relatable. His Clark Kent upbringing is the relatable part, but personality and ethically Superman is a superhuman, he represents the best of what people can be, or at least he tries too. Making him a broody murderer with Daddy issues who is about as unlikable a person as he could possibly be without being a blatant villain is not what Superman is. But, in the end, Snyder's Superman is not the most popular version of the character, nor is it the one that will endure long after we're all dead.
Hopefully Snyder won't be around after JL,or at the bare minimum they're now holding his leash and we'll get a bit less of Snyder's bizarre dislike of real heroes (Snyder apparently doesn't understand being unwilling to kill without having done it, and he's also apparently a fan of Ayn Rand which basically explains why he does superhero movies so badly). JL looks like its reigned in Snyder's depressing stuff (probably because Geoff Johns has an active role now, combined with the studio not liking the critical reaction to Snyder's stuff), so hopefully JL avoids some of the pitfalls of MoS and BvS.
Having Snyder completely involved with Wonder Woman, and having a creative team apparently not obsessed with darkness/brooding and instead liking the hopeful and heroic aspects of the character, is why Wonder Woman is looking to be the first good DCEU movie. Hopefully it does great financially and critically and helps stear the DCEU out of the deep, dark hole Snyder has put it in.
Hopefully Snyder won't be around after JL,or at the bare minimum they're now holding his leash and we'll get a bit less of Snyder's bizarre dislike of real heroes (Snyder apparently doesn't understand being unwilling to kill without having done it, and he's also apparently a fan of Ayn Rand which basically explains why he does superhero movies so badly). JL looks like its reigned in Snyder's depressing stuff (probably because Geoff Johns has an active role now, combined with the studio not liking the critical reaction to Snyder's stuff), so hopefully JL avoids some of the pitfalls of MoS and BvS.
Having Snyder completely involved with Wonder Woman, and having a creative team apparently not obsessed with darkness/brooding and instead liking the hopeful and heroic aspects of the character, is why Wonder Woman is looking to be the first good DCEU movie. Hopefully it does great financially and critically and helps stear the DCEU out of the deep, dark hole Snyder has put it in.
Which I never understood as a complaint. He never punches anything in Superman: The Movie either, and it's often considered to be the best one. A good Superman movie is about how he acts and is presented more than what actions he specifically does, in my opinion. For instance, I think his saves are much more effective in Man of Steel than they are in BvS, due to the slo-mo and 'posing for a photo' quality to the BvS ones. I love the oil rig rescue, but not the flood victims one. I like the school bus rescue, but not the boat-dragging.
I'm hopeful for Wonder Woman. Gal Gadot's thoughts on what makes Wonder Woman the woman she is are very close to what I personally want from Superman, so maybe this will be the DCU flick for me? Fingers crossed.
Wonder Woman is war incarnate if necessary.
I'm amazed that she wasn't given a nuke, to level Berlin if they believed that World War 1 was that big a deal.
(Sometimes Amazons have super-science well ahead of Man's World, other times, they don't.)
I'm amazed that she wasn't given a nuke, to level Berlin if they believed that World War 1 was that big a deal.
(Sometimes Amazons have super-science well ahead of Man's World, other times, they don't.)
I don't need Superman to punch things. What I like is when he rescues people. The earthquake rescue sequence in Returns is the best part. But it's still a disappointing movie overall, because it's trying too hard to be Donner fanfic rather than creating its own vision, and because it's just generally too sedate, with the entire cast underplaying as if they were all on tranquilizers.
After re-watching Man of Steel a couple of times, there was quote a bit of good in it... For example, Martha Kent helping Clark in ways like she would help a special needs child, or the talk Jonathan had with Clark. But all of that got shot down by scenes like Jonathan's later grumpiness in the movie, and Martha's attitude in the first half of B v. S , where I expected her to end one speech with "...and Get off my lawn!". There was no sense of hope....very different than the feel from the Supergirl TV show.
Also, The colors of Man of Steel seemed so dark...appropriate for a Batman movie, but not for Superman. So the tone felt off.
Wonder Woman seems to overcome some of those faults (if the trailers are to be believed), so I am really hopeful for it. And happy to see more ads for it.
Regarding Christopher's complaint that Wonder Woman is more about peace...well, kinda hard to show that in an action movie. And I think the emphasis on action is to help boys know that Wonder Woman is a movie not just for girls. I think the action in the ads will bring it a big opening...and then word of mouth will determine the next couple of weeks afterwards.
Also, The colors of Man of Steel seemed so dark...appropriate for a Batman movie, but not for Superman. So the tone felt off.
Wonder Woman seems to overcome some of those faults (if the trailers are to be believed), so I am really hopeful for it. And happy to see more ads for it.
Regarding Christopher's complaint that Wonder Woman is more about peace...well, kinda hard to show that in an action movie. And I think the emphasis on action is to help boys know that Wonder Woman is a movie not just for girls. I think the action in the ads will bring it a big opening...and then word of mouth will determine the next couple of weeks afterwards.
This right here? Perfect example of what I was talking about with regards to the people who are critical of Snyder and Goyer's take on Superman having to exaggerate things in order to come up with reasons why the DCEU version of Superman is somehow 'wrong'.
Everything that Jonathan and Martha do for their son is driven by hope, and everything that Clark does in both MoS and BvS is driven by hope, up until the point when Lex blows up the capitol building and everything starts falling apart for him, which is when he starts losing his faith and hope, something that he finds restored through a combination of Lois' love for him and that dream conversation with his father. Saying that there's not 'hope' in the DCEU Superman films is perpetuating a fallacy and exaggerating a complaint for the sake of having something to complain about.
Also, the muted color palette is just that, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the tone or aesthetic of the films. Wonder Woman's color palette is still as 'muted' as that of MoS and BvS, and might be even MORE subdued given the locations we've seen from the trailers.
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