Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.

[fireproof78]

The conflict was still present at the end of season 1. The whole episode is about Maquis crew members who are having a hard time adjusting and Tuvok training them

I just think it could have been handled differently.

That's it. Please enjoy.

I do agree, I think that most of the tensions should have been resolved at the end of Season 1.

I mean really, the Maquis' raison d'etre was the DMZ and the Cardassians...who are no longer present in the DQ.

In DS9 did Sisko remain in conflict with Kira and Odo past Season 1? No, they all got along fine after that.

Exactly. Especially, since in "Caretaker" Paris and Chakotay hate each other. But, that conflict gets moving just fine.

Another thought at random:

What about the crew from the "Equinox?" You're telling me they integrated fine? I guess so, as it all happened off screen. But, I should just imagine what happened.

 

[Trekkin]

Integrate quickly and easily? No.

Decide keep quiet lest the captain decide to use them as torpedoes against the nearest Borg Cube? Possibly.

 

[Sophie74656]

I just think it could have been handled differently.

That's it. Please enjoy.


Exactly. Especially, since in "Caretaker" Paris and Chakotay hate each other. But, that conflict gets moving just fine.

Another thought at random:

What about the crew from the "Equinox?" You're telling me they integrated fine? I guess so, as it all happened off screen. But, I should just imagine what happened.

I don't see why they would have trouble integrating. They were all starfleet officers. And i would imagine that they would be happy to be on Voyager after the Equinox. That ship was so badly damaged and had no luxuries. Even with reduced rank and privilege it would still be an improvement for them

 

[Nyotarules]

- We docked for repairs and the entire crew got wasted and nobody remembers what happened last night

This. I would have watched!

 

[Nyotarules]

We're going around in circles. Each of us is brining our own perspectives to the debate. So here is a question.

Imagine yourself onboard Voyager in that situation how would you react, faced with a seventy or so year journey with a very real possibility that you would never see friends or loved ones again?

Shag Tom Paris

 

[Sophie74656]

Shag Tom Paris

This

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see why they would have trouble integrating. They were all starfleet officers. And i would imagine that they would be happy to be on Voyager after the Equinox. That ship was so badly damaged and had no luxuries. Even with reduced rank and privilege it would still be an improvement for them

Certainly but does that mean seamless?

 

[Voth commando1]

Honestly this thread has gone from fair discussion to an out of whack brouhaha I can't even follow anymore.

Can anyone tell me what the theme of the last 3 pages of discussion have been?

 

[Nyotarules]

Its a shame the mutiny episodes were just a holonovel/training programme or even worse Bajoran/Vulcan brain washing

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly this thread has gone from fair discussion to an out of whack brouhaha I can't even follow anymore.

Can anyone tell me what the theme of the last 3 pages of discussion have been?

The premise of VOY and exploring other possibilities, including using our imaginations to change or modify some of the events that happened.

Its a shame the mutiny episodes were just a holonovel/training programme or even worse Bajoran/Vulcan brain washing

I tend to agree with that. The unrest from the Maquis was relegated to a couple of choice episodes, and then popped up at rather odd times with Tuvok's brainwashing.

 

[Prax]

So, as you can see the "Starfleet/Maquis" is not a political one. And it's not a conflict of enemies, it's one of discipline. The Maquis crew members(which were a very small percentage of the whole) were not completely used to the structure and rules of Starfleet. Chakotay is a bridge for his crew. He was a lifetime career officer before he resigned. He probably had 15-20 years in the service. I'm sure he had a harder time acclimating to civilian life then reverting back to Starfleet. But even he had conflict in the first few seasons.

It's much more than 2 episodes of this dynamic. Think of Prime Factors, where the Maquis way is influencing Starfleet. Or Tuvok and Chakotay's constant head butting, Or Seska's willingness to be underhanded, B'elanna's conflict trying to be responsible. I could go on and on. Sudor's failure at adjusting to life on a SF vessel. The 4 guys in "Learning Curve" that feel they're doing their best, but it's not good enough. And so on. Jonas willingness to betray his crew.

There are many other quarrels between different mains and guests that just don't happen in TNG unless unless Vulcans with Dementia are on board, or Wesley crusher is having hot flashes of angst. Even Major Kira isnt as confrontational as B'elanna. And Sisko had this terrible hatred for Picard, but by the end of the Pilot, everything was fine. I wonder what Picard thought. It was probably "Yeah, he discovered this wormhole and NOW he wants to stay" I'm sure he had a bad feeling about it.

 

[Voth commando1]

I doubt Picard really grasped the quasi-religious experience Sisko had and walked away confused.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You worry too much about technical jargon interfering with the average viewer's perceptions. We are smarter than you give us credit for. My partner is the most intelligent nerd you could ever meet. I'm no slug either, maybe an English nerd and a literature one at that.. but people like us don't mind the technical jargon in our fiction, our science fiction. I love language and it often amuses me.

Again, there's nothing wrong with technical jargon. It adds a bit of realism to the sci-fi setting even if you don't always understand it.

That is a different thing from technobabble, which doesn't actually have any meaning and is just a word salad thrown together because it SOUNDS like jargon and has only been added to the script because a writer assumes that jargon should be used but has no idea what it would really sound like.

 

[MacLeod]

And Sisko had this terrible hatred for Picard, but by the end of the Pilot, everything was fine. I wonder what Picard thought. It was probably "Yeah, he discovered this wormhole and NOW he wants to stay" I'm sure he had a bad feeling about it.

Well perhaps Sisko was still going thorough "teh five stages of groef" and his experience with the wormhole aliens allowed him to move on from the loss of his wife.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Its a shame the mutiny episodes were just a holonovel/training programme or even worse Bajoran/Vulcan brain washing

YES!

Now that I think about it, it's kind of peculiar they got all the way through the Delta Quadrant without at least one attempted mutiny. That's almost obligatory for "lost in space" tropes in science fiction, but it's obligatory for a REASON. Captain Ransom comes pretty close, but it's not QUITE the same thing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

For some reason I just want to reply to this bit. Who are you to speak for me? 'We' didn't didn't work that out? Well I did.

On premier night?

 

[fireproof78]

So, as you can see the "Starfleet/Maquis" is not a political one. And it's not a conflict of enemies, it's one of discipline. The Maquis crew members(which were a very small percentage of the whole) were not completely used to the structure and rules of Starfleet. Chakotay is a bridge for his crew. He was a lifetime career officer before he resigned. He probably had 15-20 years in the service. I'm sure he had a harder time acclimating to civilian life then reverting back to Starfleet. But even he had conflict in the first few seasons.

Unfotunately, Chkotay was a poorly written character and his past experience in Starfleet were not nearly as important as his made up Native heritage.

Also, his conflict with Paris is left on the cutting room floor.

It's much more than 2 episodes of this dynamic. Think of Prime Factors, where the Maquis way is influencing Starfleet. Or Tuvok and Chakotay's constant head butting, Or Seska's willingness to be underhanded, B'elanna's conflict trying to be responsible. I could go on and on. Sudor's failure at adjusting to life on a SF vessel. The 4 guys in "Learning Curve" that feel they're doing their best, but it's not good enough. And so on. Jonas willingness to betray his crew.

Yes, and I want more of this, not just the occasional episode.

There are many other quarrels between different mains and guests that just don't happen in TNG unless unless Vulcans with Dementia are on board, or Wesley crusher is having hot flashes of angst. Even Major Kira isnt as confrontational as B'elanna. And Sisko had this terrible hatred for Picard, but by the end of the Pilot, everything was fine. I wonder what Picard thought. It was probably "Yeah, he discovered this wormhole and NOW he wants to stay" I'm sure he had a bad feeling about it.

The dynamics are different, I will agree with that point. My larger point is, those dynamics do not go through a lot of changes or growth over the years, with the exception of the Doctor, Tom and B'Elanna's relationship (the characters are mixed) or Kes. Neelix and Tuvok have occasional moments of insight but then its back to the usual.

I'm not saying it wasn't done, just that I wanted more and not as sporadic as it was on screen.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I don't think the conflict was over early in season 1. In Twisted, Chakotay and Tuvok are disagreeing about the best course of action. I'm sure Chakotay would have felt resentful of being left out of the loop in Investigations.

 

[Jayson1]

I have a question for both people who feel the Starfleet/Maquis was done well and those who don't?

What should this conflict morphed into and were should the new internal conflict come from as it's replacement? The crew coming together is actually a bad thing usually because once you do that you basically turned the show into TNG.

Seven of NIne was a ovious attempt to sort of fix the mistake in season 3 of not just moving away from Starfleet/Maquis conflict but not really having anything to replace it. It seems to me their needed to be a little more added though beyond just Seven at this point. Like adding families or people wanting to leave the ship instead of everyone embracing the idea of exploring while trying to get home.
To be fair I think "DS9" had a similiar problem in it's 3rd season as well. I think the studio wanted less Bajoran stuff and they were also trying to establish the Dominion as a threat while also making the crew feel more like a family with each other.
So what you get though is a show that sort feels like a cross between what it had been and what it will be in the future.
I do feel like the show basically though reinvented itself in "Way of the Warrior" which I think most people see as a second pilot of sorts and the show took off from there. I'm not sure "Voyager" has that complete shift that "DS9" had and they basically put all their hopes on the Seven of Nine character and while it worked to some degree I just don't think it worked as well as "DS9" when it changed gears.

Jason

 

[MacLeod]

I have a question for both people who feel the Starfleet/Maquis was done well and those who don't?

What should this conflict morphed into and were should the new internal conflict come from as it's replacement? The crew coming together is actually a bad thing usually because once you do that you basically turned the show into TNG.

Seven of NIne was a ovious attempt to sort of fix the mistake in season 3 of not just moving away from Starfleet/Maquis conflict but not really having anything to replace it. It seems to me their needed to be a little more added though beyond just Seven at this point. Like adding families or people wanting to leave the ship instead of everyone embracing the idea of exploring while trying to get home.
To be fair I think "DS9" had a similiar problem in it's 3rd season as well. I think the studio wanted less Bajoran stuff and they were also trying to establish the Dominion as a threat while also making the crew feel more like a family with each other.
So what you get though is a show that sort feels like a cross between what it had been and what it will be in the future.
I do feel like the show basically though reinvented itself in "Way of the Warrior" which I think most people see as a second pilot of sorts and the show took off from there. I'm not sure "Voyager" has that complete shift that "DS9" had and they basically put all their hopes on the Seven of Nine character and while it worked to some degree I just don't think it worked as well as "DS9" when it changed gears.

Jason

Lets examine the primaries

Starfleet: Janeway, Tuvok, Kim, EMH, Paris
Maquis: Chakotay, Torres
Others: Kes, Neelix, Seven

Even Chakotay was ex-starfleet and Torres went to Starfleet Acadaemy before she dropped out (from memory). Perhaps it might have been better to have Chakotay never having been in Starfleet.

As for people wanting to leave the ship perhaps they could have used this angle to develop Kim somewaht, esp. if it was the lower ranks and NCO's, ordinary crewpersons that want to leave after all who might they seek out first perhaps the lowest ranked enior officer.