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Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.

And for the list of episodes featuring time travel.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Time_travel_episodes
That list has the same ten ds9 episodes listed. And for Voyager, it has Parallax and Death Wish listed, 2 non-time travel episodes.

it settled for TNG-lite, TNG 2.0, which was a shame it had so much potential
Only someone who's never gotten into the show, and never watched it much would call it "TNG 2.0" or "TNG Lite." So, what? because it's a "ship show," it's TNG lite?
They could have made that into a character/story arc as she struggles tocome to terms with what she has to do to get her crew home, does she play it by the rules or does she ignore the rules so you can actually show her having a crisiss of faith in her abilites
This is like, a main theme of Janeway. They depict all of this. Are we going to now argue to what degree they should have? This thread is beginning to go in cycles.

What is good? If the producers, writers, actors, etc of the show are happy with the result, the show is objectively good. If they are really happy with a season, that season is objectively really good.

All this "they could have done" or "they should have done" is purely speculative, and nonsense. We weren't there. We don't know what was best for the show. How can we judge a show using an ex post facto set of expectations and critiquing it based on "what it could have done."

I'm sorry, but our ideas today(20 years later), of what it could have done, are out of context. Do we criticized Law & Order for being Law & Order? Should we Criticize Star Trek for being Star Trek?

Most of the suggestions I've seen in this thread are either already in the show(which makes me wonder just how long it's been since you guys have seen the show) or they would turn star trek into a cheesy soap opera, rather than vehicle for telling compelling sci Fi stories.
 
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That list has the same ten ds9 episodes listed. And for Voyager, it has Parallax and Death Wish listed, 2 non-time travel episodes.

Only someone who's never gotten into the show, and never watched it much would call it "TNG 2.0" or "TNG Lite." So, what? because it's a "ship show," it's TNG lite?
This is like, a main theme of Janeway. They depict all of this. Are we going to now argue to what degree they should have? This thread is beginning to go in cycles.

What is good? If the producers, writers, actors, etc of the show are happy with the result, the show is objectively good. If they are really happy with a season, that season is objectively really good.

All this "they could have done" or "they should have done" is purely speculative, and nonsense. We weren't there. We don't know what was best for the show. How can we judge a show using an ex post facto set of expectations and critiquing it based on "what it could have done."


I'm sorry, but our ideas today(20 years later), of what it could have done, are out of context. Do we criticized Law & Order for being Law & Order? Should we Criticize Star Trek for being Star Trek?

Most of the suggestions I've seen in this thread are either already in the show(which makes me wonder just how long it's been since you guys have seen the show) or they would turn star trek into a cheesy soap opera, rather than vehicle for telling compelling sci Fi stories.
I have to agree with you here...a lot of time when i see people criticize voyager my first thought is "did you watch the show at all?"
 
The Enterprise had support of the Federation, while Voyager was alone, and yet was pursued by an Ahab-complex driven Queen.

In BOBW, they did NOT have the support of the Federation and yet still managed to win when they should have been destroyed several times over. I can break it down if you'd like.
 
Ok why wasn't she allowed to that? And don't say it's because she's a woman because wouldn't that be playing the gender card? They could have made that into a character/story arc as she struggles tocome to terms with what she has to do to get her crew home, does she play it by the rules or does she ignore the rules so you can actually show her having a crisiss of faith in her abilites (and you could do this even if it was a male). This in turn could feed in Chokatay as comes to reply and respeect him more and more.

They tried, and all they got for their trouble was this constant critique over how schizophrenic she was.
 
I have to agree with you here...a lot of time when i see people criticize voyager my first thought is "did you watch the show at all?"

I sincerely hope you were never stupid enough to actually say that to anyone. Allow me to demonstrate why:

'You liked Voyager? Are you sure that you weren't actually watching something else?'​

Seems condescending and close-minded, ain't it? The sort of thing that'd obliterate nearly any attempt at even-tempered discussion?
 
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I sincerely hope you were never stupid enough to actually say that to anyone. Allow me to demonstrate why:

'You say that you like Voyager? Are you sure that you weren't actually watching something else?'​

Condescending and close-minded, ain't it? The sort of thing that'd obliterate nearly any attempt at even-tempered discussion?
I said it was a THOUGHT.

Often I see criticisms that seem like they are made by people who haven't watched otherwise they wouldn't be making those comments. If someone says oh Voyager never did so and so, and I can reply with three episode off the top of my head where they did do that thing it makes ne think they didn't watch the show. Or when someone says oh Voyager always did this, and I ask for an example of that, and they're answer is just again saying they always did that without saying what episode(s) again it makes me think they didn't really watch the show.

Just recently I saw a post where someone said that Janeway constantly broke the prime directive. I asked that person for an example of a few times when she did. They were unable to provide a single example. So times like that I feel like that person didn't watch the show or just barely paid attention
 
This is like, a main theme of Janeway. They depict all of this. Are we going to now argue to what degree they should have? This thread is beginning to go in cycles.
I feel like this was especially apparent in the episode Night. She was having doubts and depression about everything because they had been stuck in the void for a long time.
 
I said it was a THOUGHT.

Often I see criticisms that seem like they are made by people who haven't watched otherwise they wouldn't be making those comments. If someone says oh Voyager never did so and so, and I can reply with three episode off the top of my head where they did do that thing it makes ne think they didn't watch the show. Or when someone says oh Voyager always did this, and I ask for an example of that, and they're answer is just again saying they always did that without saying what episode(s) again it makes me think they didn't really watch the show.

Just recently I saw a post where someone said that Janeway constantly broke the prime directive. I asked that person for an example of a few times when she did. They were unable to provide a single example. So times like that I feel like that person didn't watch the show or just barely paid attention

Or because the show is approaching 20 years old, and people's memories for detailed pointless trivia aren't great? I own the series on DVD, and I'd have to research before I could give you episode names.

Although by the time of VOY, the Prime directive was ridiculously broad. 'Non-interference with the normal development of any culture or society' basically encompassed anytime a captain made first contact, ever. That's a lot of episodes, especially in VOY.

Which isn't entirely VOY fault. It simply carried on a bad plot device from TNG (PD's different in TOS), and played the bad card more. So the episodes where Janeway adheres strictly to it, contrast with the eps where the writers let it slide for plot reasons. As TNG and ENT cop heat for the exact same thing (the PD eps are fans go-to argument for issues with Berman-era Trek), it's hardly people being unfairly harsh on VOY.
 
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I wouldn't say Voyager ruined time travel, which isn't fair at all, since the other shows did it so much. I would say that by the time Voyager tackled the idea it was pretty much lacked the same fascination as it used too. The other shows sort of ran it into the idea into the ground over time. Voyager kind of inherited it.

The Borg ---- if I use myself as a typical viewer, this is what I thought while watching the series----- Scorpion was a great episode. A few others were good, but then it got to a point of seeing episodes that show the Borg daydreaming and then plotting a rebellion, a super Borg that just appeared accidently and then bravely sacrifices itself, former Borg children who become new crew members, the Borg Queen takes a personal interest in Seven, the crew ends up knowing everything about how they work etc.,.

Maybe a better way of saying it is that Voyager watered down the Borg too much instead of saying they over used it.
Except Voyager had exceptional and original time travel episodes. Before & After is an episode that progresses backwards. I'm sure everyone's familiar with Year of Hell, a time travel episode that doesn't involve time travel. Timeless is another claasic, and to many, the best Harry Kim episode. Shattered is unique take on the "clip show. It delves into Chakotay and Janeway's relationship and the history of the show. Future's End and Relativity introduce the "Timecops." Eye of the Needle shows us a more realistic side of Romulans and has a great twist. Time & Again, which plays like a classic Twilight Zone episode, has Voyager discover a planet that just wiped out, only to find out that they caused it, by trying to stop it.

There's really not that many "Borg vs Voyager" episodes. It's mostly the four 2-parters where they actually come into contact with "the collective." and they are mostly "7 of 9 episodes." Someone mentioned "The Raven" an episode that feature's no Borg, but a story about Seven's past with touching moments with Tuvok.

How many "Kira confronts her past" episodes are there. Or Kira & Dukat episodes. "Kira's Mom was Dukat's mistress 20 years ago? Wow! How unexpected. It's a small world! I better go consult that Orb of time, travel to past and make sure he's not lying..."
 
Or because the show is approaching 20 years old, and people's memories for detailed pointless trivia aren't great? I own the series on DVD, and I'd have to research before I could give you episode names.

Although by the time of VOY, the Prime directive was ridiculously broad. 'Non-interference with the normal development of any culture or society' basically encompassed anytime a captain made first contact, ever. That's a lot of episodes, especially in VOY.

Which isn't entirely VOY fault. It simply carried on a bad plot device from TNG (PD's different in TOS), and played the bad card more. So the episodes where Janeway adheres strictly to it, contrast with the eps where the writers let it slide for plot reasons. As TNG and ENT cop heat for the exact same thing (the PD eps are fans go-to argument for issues with Berman-era Trek), it's hardly people being unfairly harsh on VOY.
That's part of a debate. You make an argument and you back it up. It's easy enough to google an episode or to pull up the transcripts. If you're going to make a claim like Janeway breaks the prime directive "all the time" you should probably have at least one example
 
Or because the show is approaching 20 years old, and people's memories for detailed pointless trivia aren't great? I own the series on DVD, and I'd have to research before I could give you episode names.
If one has not seen the show since it aired, then many of the generalizations we keep seeing make a lot more sense, albeit to the detriment of productive discussion. Then again, this thread was bound was and determined to be unproductive from its' premise, which assumed that A)There's a problem, and B) Voyager "didn't take chances" It's a generalization, it's cynical, and just vague enough to attract any perceived grievance to be dumped here.
 
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In BOBW, they did NOT have the support of the Federation and yet still managed to win when they should have been destroyed several times over. I can break it down if you'd like.
They had a unique advantage-Picard.

I suppose Seven is a unique advantage as well, but I still find Voyager's repeated defeat of the Borg near to the Borg's home space to be straining credulity and suspension of disbelief for me. YMMV.

If one has not seen the show since it aired, then many of the generalizations we keep seeing make a lot more sense, albeit to the detriment of productive discussion. Then again, this thread was bound was and determined to be unproductive from its' premise, which assumed that A)There's a problem, and B) Voyager "didn't take chances" It's a generalization, it's cynical, and just vague enough to attract any perceived grievance to be dumped here.
I just felt that Voyager didn't take full advantage of its premise and, relied upon a formula that had the ship remain relatively unchanged throughout the run.

Is it as bad as its often portrayed? No, of course not. Nothing ever is, even Abrams Trek and that gets shellacked all the time online ("Jar-Jar Abrams" :rolleyes:). But, hyperbole rules the internet-what do you think the "h" in "http" stands for?

"Audiences hated Voyager?" is just as hyperbolic as "Voyager took no chances." The truth of the matter is in the middle some where. Also, with regards to entertainment, somone's enjoyment of it is subjective.
 
If one has not seen the show since it aired, then many of the generalizations we keep seeing make a lot more sense, albeit to the detriment of productive discussion. Then again, this thread was bound was and determined to be unproductive from its' premise, which assumed that A)There's a problem, and B) Voyager "didn't take chances" It's a generalization, it's cynical, and just vague enough to attract any perceived grievance to be dumped here.

It's notably not a generalisation, because the statement itself accounts for possible exceptions. 'Didn't take full advantage,' does not mean the same thing 'didn't take advantage.'

Also: 'critical' does not mean 'cynical.' Again, There's identical threads in every forum.

That's part of a debate. You make an argument and you back it up. It's easy enough to google an episode or to pull up the transcripts. If you're going to make a claim like Janeway breaks the prime directive "all the time" you should probably have at least one example

Like claiming posts exist that justify flinging the 'ignorant' accusation, without providing links and leaving us to take you at your word?

There's also the little niggle that people interpret things differently. What you see as an incorrect or wrong answer, can very well be an accurate reading to others. That's not always the case, but we are talking about art.

For eg.
Accusation: 'Janeway is a murderer'
Demand for evidence: 'Of who?'
Evidence: 'Tuvix!'
 
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They had a unique advantage-Picard.

I suppose Seven is a unique advantage as well, but I still find Voyager's repeated defeat of the Borg near to the Borg's home space to be straining credulity and suspension of disbelief for me. YMMV.

Even before they got Picard back, there were instances in BOBW where the Borg could easily destroy the Enterprise but didn't.

And they didn't repeatedly defeat them, they repeatedly survived. Thing is, apparently surviving is bad.

And no, they weren't going to cripple the ship or have tons of people be assimilated in every Borg encounter. That would've been silly.
 
Even before they got Picard back, there were instances in BOBW where the Borg could easily destroy the Enterprise but didn't.

And they didn't repeatedly defeat them, they repeatedly survived. Thing is, apparently surviving is bad.

And no, they weren't going to cripple the ship or have tons of people be assimilated in every Borg encounter. That would've been silly.
The Enterprise was not a threat at the time. The Borg in Voyager were constantly expending resources and destroying whole cubes for the sake of Janeway.

Yes, Voyager didn't have the assimilation fodder. So, maybe don't show the Borg?

Also, it never felt like survival. It always felt like a major victory, especially in Dark Frontier when they destroy a Queen's ship.
 
It's notably
not a generalisation, because the statement itself accounts for possible exceptions. 'Didn't take fulladvantage,' does not mean the same thing 'didn't take advantage.'
This thread's title:
Biggest problem with Voyager is that they didn't really take any chances.

This is in fact a generalization. Voyager has 178 episodes, multiple producers, 3 show runners, many, many writers. The title assumes objectivity in what a "problem" is and implies that there are many other "problems." And of course it assumes that Voyager "didn't take chances." which makes it a false premise.

Lastly, it's a non sequitur, as the title assumes "Not taking chances is a big problem."

In the first few pages, posters had noted "chances" that Voyager did in fact take, but they weren't disputed, only ignored.
 
Another fan's observations:
Spoilered due to length:
Caretaker
In this, let us remember that the Prime Directive states that interference with the natural development of any race which possesses a lower level of technology than the Federation is strictly forbidden. Had Captain Janeway not interfered, the Kazon would have taken possession of the Array, this being the natural course of events for their race given the circumstances. Captain Janeway's destruction of the Array was therefore a clear violation of the Prime Directive. Captain Janeway's claim that by destroying she was protecting the Ocampa is mere fabrication, as we have seen.

Jetrel
Captain Janeway allowed a known war criminal of a race with a lower level of technology than that of Voyager use of the Sickbay and the transporter. Her logs indicate that she sympathized with him, as he was trying to undo damage he had done, but the fact remains that she aided and abetted a criminal and violated the Prime Directive.

Prototype
The Voyager crew beamed aboard a deactivated robot and Janeway allowed Torres to try to reactivate it, using Federation technology. Once revived, the robot insisted that Torres build a prototype power module for the construction of additional units. Belatedly Janeway insisted that this was a violation of the Prime Directive, but the robot kidnapped Torres. Once aboard their ship Torres created the power units they needed, only to destroy them when she found out their true plans. The fact that the technology was destroyed does not excuse the original Prime Directive Violation.

Basics
By surrendering Voyager to the Kazon rather than destroying her, Janeway not only violated the Prime Directive by placing all of Voyager's technology in the hands of the Kazon, but conducted herself in a way unbefitting an officer, showed her unfitness for command and aided and abetted the enemy.

Swarm
Captain Janeway willfully invaded an alien realm of space and proceeded to destroys hundreds, if not thousand of their vessels - thus changing the balance of power in that section of space, ignoring the rules and culture of a sentient alien race and breaking the Prime Directive.

Scorpion
Captain Janeway made a deal with the Borg, confirmed enemies of the Federation, to help them destroy an enemy of their own in exchange for free passage through their space. Her reason for striking this deal is quite clear: passage through this particular area of the Delta Quadrant was the shortest route to the Alpha Quadrant. Going around Borg space would add decades to their journey. Although the deal Captain Janeway struck with the Borg did gain them the passage they needed, the Borg subsequently turned on them, becoming once again the enemy of Voyager. In addition, Janeway made a powerful enemy of the species she helped the Borg to defeat: a species the Borg designate 8472. This incident once again brings into question Captain Janeway's fitness for command as well as her original decision to strand her ship and crew in the Delta Quadrant, not to mention she broke the Prime Directive once again by interfering in the cultures and problems of Species8472 and The Borg - her decision to help the Borg led to millions more races being assimilated(as seen in 'Hope and Fear') and several thousand alien cultures ceasing to exist.

Demon
Captain Janeway allowed a pre-sentient lifeform to sample the Voyager crew's DNA. The pre-sentient "silver blood" lifeforms became humanoid as a result, and quickly mimicked the crew's mannerisms, memories, and technology. The Prime Directive is designed to prevent interference with the development of lifeforms less advanced than those of the Federation. Most often, alleged violations of the Directive arise from technology transfer or the exposure of pre-warp civilizations to the existence of alien life. The violation here, in many ways, is much more severe, as the evolution of an entire species, not merely the development of a civilization, was irrevocably altered by Janeway's callous actions. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence, not corroborated in Voyager's logs, indicating that these lifeforms came to believe that they were in fact Voyager's crew, and they all died in a futile attempted to return to Earth. If true, this underscores the importance of the Prime Directive and the terrible consequences that can result when it is violated.

The Killing Game
On several occasions, Captain Janeway improperly gave Starfleet technology or technological assistance to Delta Quadrant races. In the best-documented incident from this time, on or around Stardate 51710, Captain Janeway gave Federation holodeck technology to a race called the Hirogen. Three years later, it was discovered that Hirogen abuse of that technology resulted in the creation of a sentient and violent breed of hologram. Those holograms subsequently killed several sentients. In a documented conversation taking place on or around Stardate 54300, it was revealed that trading technology for supplies had in fact been standard operating procedure aboard Voyager for some time. Not every incident is fully documented in the ship's log, but a pattern of improper trade and its often dire consequences is easily seen in the record.

Dragon's Teeth
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to revive a race called the Vaadwaur, who were found in suspended animation on a devastated planet. The Vaadwaur had in fact been a violent, predatory race that had been defeated and nearly wiped out by its victims centuries earlier. As a result of Janeway's actions, several Vaadwaur vessels escaped to threaten that area of space once again. Sworn testimony from Ambassador Neelix and Crewman Annika Hansen will demonstrate that Janeway did not wait for a historical records search to be completed before having the Vaadwaur revived. That search revealed the true nature of the Vaadwaur, but by then it was too late to prevent their reintroduction into the Delta Quadrant.

Riddles
Captain Janeway negotiated with members of a paranoid and xenophobic race called the Kesat, offering them tactical data on neighboring races in exchange for information needed to treat Commander Tuvok, according to sworn testimony by several members of Voyager's bridge crew. While Voyager's log indicates that a deal was not in fact struck, Janeway's willingness to make such an arrangement demonstrates a disregard for sentient life and for Starfleet's principle of non-interference. A Starfleet Captain has a duty to protect the members of his or her crew but not at the expense of innocent sentients.

The Voyager Conspiracy
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to assist an alien named Tash in building a "subspace catapult," which was subsequently used by Voyager to travel several thousand light years closer to home. The crew used Starfleet technology and methods to build the catapult, but Janeway did nothing to prevent the catapult and its component Starfleet technology from falling into the wrong hands after leaving it behind.

Live Fast and Prosper
Captain Janeway discovered that the complete contents of the Federation database had been stolen from the Delta Flyer. While Voyager's crew apprehended the thieves, who were impersonating Federation representatives, Voyager's log shows that Janeway made no effort to determine whether that data had been passed to others, creating the possibility that the Delta Quadrant could now be awash in Federation knowledge and technology.
To be fair, Picard's violation in Nemesis is far more egregious, in my opinion, but that's me.
 
They have Borg episodes because the Borg are major component of Voyager. There's a Borg crew member who's important to both Janeway and the Queen.

In Dark Frontier they barely escape, and destroy the Queen's ship by accident. They just tried to close the trans warp thingamajig to give them a head start in fleeing.

In Unimatrix Zero, The Queen self-destructs her own ship to kill Janeway. Is this out of character for the queen? no. She had a vendetta with Picard in First Contact.

The last battle is in Endgame where they finally defeat the Borg with a virus.

That's three Borg battles. are there others? No, not really.

In Drone, the "offspring" sacrifices himself so Voyager can escape.

and in Child's Play, Voyager transports a torpedo onto a Borg Cube, damaging it enough to allow their escape.

Is it not a logical story progression that the more contact SF has with the Borg, the more equipped they are to elude them?

Archer "defeated the Borg" too. Picard kept one in his Brig...twice!

And even if the actual actions in the episodes above have some diminishing effect of Borg Powahh! It's a very shallow way of looking at the stories. For instance, Dark Frontier isn't about pew pew space battles or who can defeat Superman. It's about Seven, her childhood, and her being caught between two worlds, and being fought over by two "Mothers"

Scorpion is about aligning with a terrible enemy and having a conflict of selfish reasons and moral obligations.
 
The Enterprise was not a threat at the time. The Borg in Voyager were constantly expending resources and destroying whole cubes for the sake of Janeway.

Even in the battles scenes the Borg Cube should have been able to tear the Enterprise apart as easily as it did all the other Starfleet ships. For whatever reason, it couldn't.

Yes, Voyager didn't have the assimilation fodder. So, maybe don't show the Borg?

Cop-out.

As for the PD violation in Caretaker, the Caretaker himself had set the Array to blow and Voyagers' presence there messed that up. By blowing up the Array Janeway corrected their prior interference.

And "Scorpion", just have Q pop up at the end and say "If you hadn't done anything, the Galaxy would've been destroyed. Kudos!" and pop out just to shut the complainers up.

In fact, the show would've been better off if they had an episode where Q shows them "What Ifs?" where they did do stuff the audience says they should've done, and then have every reality end with things worse off than they were. Just to make the point clear.

EDIT: And if Janeway helping stop the 8472 is bad, then so is Sisko helping the Dominion in "To The Death".
 
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