Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.

[Jayson1]

Maybe if Voyager was stuck on a space station in the middle of a feudal conflict for seven years. Change the players to other aliens and genders. Kill off the Captain the second week and bring new characters every other week. That would be risk taking and bloody awful.

It would be for "Voyager" because it would be a change that doesn't make sense in the context of the show. Changes people talk about here are built off it's premise instead of wholesale changes to the show that feel like they come out of left field. Also we have no idea about how change would impact the show. All we know is the show for some didn't live up to it's potential so it's intresting to explore things that might have made it a better show.
For some that means making it watchable. For someone like me it means elevating it from a fun romp to something more challenging. For me there are few episodes that I hate. The problem is that there are also very few that I love. The show doesn't feel special like It was trying to do something really unique to the franchise.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Now I'm confused. When Voyager in your reference did do something to turn off audiences (er is that what one would want??) it was still not risk taking enough?? The parameters of what they should and should not have done are changing, I get that you don't like the show but do you think Voyager should have taken chances purely to turn off audiences? Why? Let me also ask. You seem to revere DS9. Would you want to kill off and change the characters of that show? Turn them into potheads and have the station miraculously made into a space ship. At some level surely one has to trust in some of the show we saw and let the premise stand.. Criticism is one thing but looking for fault at every turn is almost spamming.

I'm not talking about making changes for the purpose of offending people. That would be insane for any tv show to do. What I mean is that whenever you take a risk you know there is going to be a chance that some people might not like it. You just have to accept this and try and make the best show possible.

As for DS9 then I would welcome any changes that make the show better. A drug addict would make for a intresting character and I wouldn't mind some character deaths if the stories were good and it enhanced the show. For example I like Ezri just as much as I liked Jadzia. Changes aren't the problem it's all about how you execute them. Also I do like "Voyager." I just don't like it as much as TNG,DS9 or TOS. I do like it better than "Enterprise."I just think it could have been a lot better.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Oh Jason you level of distaste and dislike is palpable and although your right.. it has been tiresome. Imagine a show you like having being trashed under the guise of helpful criticism. I hope there was something in the franchise you liked and kind of hope you can get it because whining about Voyager is not going to change it. You are not going to 'elevate' Voyager to your taste.. ever.. thank God.

People trash stuff I like all the time. DS9 was never really respected by some and I like tons of stuff others hate. For example I am the one guy who liked the "Green Lantern." I might be the only guy on the planet that liked it. It's okay though for others to dislike it or see flaws because everyone is different. It doesn't really bother me all that much. Don't get so upset that people might not like "Voyager" or like it as much as you do. Also like I said I did like "Voyager" I just didn't love it.

Jason

 

[Refuge]

Serenity now..

 

[unimatrix7]

DS9 was never really respected by some

But not many. DS9's ex post facto greatness has become holy writ. If you don't pontificate mastubatorily on DS9's 'arcs' and worship Ron D Moore as a visionary and forget that Ira Behr made us suffer through umpteen Ferengi episodes then you're automatically of lesser taste.

I happen to love DS9. More than Voyager. More than life, even, perhaps. But I'm not blind to the fact that it suffered the same maddening flaws that have beset every other Trek series before and after. Some baby steps towards trans-episode storytelling don't change that.

 

[Anwar]

Like I've always said before, I've always wanted to see a big emotional, intense debate between the Maquis and Starfleet. And 80% of the episode should focus on it. That was one of the biggest missed opportunities of the show.

Problem is, you can't sustain that for 7 years straight. If they can't get over themselves and learn to co-exist, they'd never survive.

The Maquis have been fighting the Cardassians and running from Starfleet for about 4 years or so at this point?

At the time of Voyager, the Maquis had barely existed for 1 year.

This is the problem, having their disagreements be based around a political dispute that was now 75 years away would get silly after a while.

 

[Refuge]

But not many. DS9's ex post facto greatness has become holy writ. If you don't pontificate mastubatorily on DS9's 'arcs' and worship Ron D Moore as a visionary and forget that Ira Behr made us suffer through umpteen Ferengi episodes then you're automatically of lesser taste.

I happen to love DS9. More than Voyager. More than life, even, perhaps. But I'm not blind to the fact that it suffered the same maddening flaws that have beset every other Trek series before and after. Some baby steps towards trans-episode storytelling don't change that.

Why do I get the feeling though that of all the places the Voyager forum is supposed to be the place to be audience for DS 9 worship? I know people can like both but it seems kind of rude or something. It is appreciated though to see it not being held up as some kind of yardstick. I mean each to their own and all..

 

[Jayson1]

But not many. DS9's ex post facto greatness has become holy writ. If you don't pontificate mastubatorily on DS9's 'arcs' and worship Ron D Moore as a visionary and forget that Ira Behr made us suffer through umpteen Ferengi episodes then you're automatically of lesser taste.

I happen to love DS9. More than Voyager. More than life, even, perhaps. But I'm not blind to the fact that it suffered the same maddening flaws that have beset every other Trek series before and after. Some baby steps towards trans-episode storytelling don't change that.

DS9 love is though on the level of a cult show much like TOS was when it started to get popular. I do think it's proably hit it's ceiling to just how popular it will get. I'm actually thinking that TOS in the future might be the only Trek show people still remember because it created the concept of fandom and it gets reboot's. It's basically a icon at this point.
As for the worship of those who like it I think people still see flaws but I think the fact that show did try to do some stuff different sort of outweighs any problems within the show. Plus I think people can just be really defensive when people say things like how the show is to dark or it doesn't go anywhere because it's space station. In this way I can understand why people who love "Voyager" sometimes get really upset when they see people complain about their favorite Trek show.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Why do I get the feeling though that of all the places the Voyager forum is supposed to be the place to be audience for DS 9 worship? I know people can like both but it seems kind of rude or something. It is appreciated though to see it not being held up as some kind of yardstick. I mean each to their own and all..

The main reason is simply because both shows are Trek shows so people are naturally going to compare. Plus you got two different things going on. People love to complain. People also love Star Trek. That means people will love complaining about Star Trek. Even if "Voyager" did everything we wished and the show was great people will still complain about flaws that might happen because that is the way human beings are. I suspect their isn't a tv show or movie that hasn't had people sit and wonder how it could have been done better.
Also you toss in the fact that you have others who disagree with which creates debate which is something people also love to do.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

So you are on the DS 9 forum complaining about its flaws and comparitively praising Voyager? You know because that's what people like to do?

I've talked about things I dislike there. I didn't like how the Bajorans became less important. I felt the Jem Haddar were to hard to tell apart. I felt the Wormhole aliens were overused. I even think the early seasons were good were a lot of people seem to dislike them. I don't think there is anything on tv that I always thought was perfect.

As for things Voyager did better. I liked Janeway better than Sisko. I felt Paris and Torres romance was just as good as all the romance on Ds9. I think the EMH was just as good as some of the DS9 characters. Voyager has the better pilot episode and I even think season 1 was better than season 3 of DS9. I know this because they ran at the same time and back then I actually looked forward more to the "Voyager" show than "DS9."


Jason

 

[marlboro]

Problem is, you can't sustain that for 7 years straight. If they can't get over themselves and learn to co-exist, they'd never survive.



At the time of Voyager, the Maquis had barely existed for 1 year.

This is the problem, having their disagreements be based around a political dispute that was now 75 years away would get silly after a while.

True, but the conflict wouldn't be about the Cardassians - it would be a clash of worldviews. Janeway (usually!) wants to do everything by the book, sticking to an ideology no matter if it makes the journey more difficult in the short term. The Maquis have a different set pf principles, that they believe in just as strongly as Janeway. They aren't totally "ends justify the means" types but they aren't going to let a few Federation regulations stop them from getting home as quickly as possible.

There should have been an ebb and flow of tension as Janeway's decisions played out. And there should have been some legitimate debate and second guessing as well. The show needed more of this in the earlier seasons:

Seven of Nine:
I have agreed to remain on Voyager; I have agreed to function as a member of your crew. But I will not be a willing participant in my own destruction or the destruction of this ship.

Captain Kathryn Janeway:
Objection noted. We'll do this without you.

Seven of Nine:
You will fail.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I get that you don't like the show but do you think Voyager should have taken chances purely to turn off audiences?

With Voyager being the show that launched the fledgling UPN (at the time) network. Many chances the writers/producers wanted to take may have been vetoed by the network.

People trash stuff I like all the time. DS9 was never really respected by some and I like tons of stuff others hate.

It's funny, it seems a lot of the time I will like the least popular things. Rooting for the underdog and all that.

I guess in the eyes of some it's doubly bad. I like Voyager and I like the Star Wars prequels. Although I probably like any kind of Trek better than Star Wars. I'm not blind to the flaws of either thing, but I like what I like.

In this way I can understand why people who love "Voyager" sometimes get really upset when they see people complain about their favorite Trek show.

I would describe it more as a little sad rather than really upset. I've read stuff on other sites where it seems like everyone will sing the praises of TNG and DS9 and then turn around and say new fans shouldn't even bother with Voyager. The same thing is usually said about Enterprise as well.

And I do think that sometimes every little flaw of Voyager is just nit-picked a lot. And when something similar happens in the other Trek shows, they get a free pass on it.

One thing I see a lot of complaints about. They should have showed them struggling for resources more. OK, maybe they didn't show them struggling so much. But I can think of many episodes where members of the crew were on trading missions. Or they were looking for some kind of minerals to keep the ship going or to repair it.

I can think of an early episode where there was actually crew planet-side looking for edible plants. Another one Chakotay tells the Capt. that Torres wants to modify some part of the ship to use as a refinery for the ores that they found to use to maintain the ship/engines, etc. Although some shuttle missions were purely scientific, many times it was looking for things they needed. Janeway wasn't sending those doomed shuttles out just for the hell of it.

 

[Herbert]

Now I would say Tuvix was an example of taking a successful risk. Why? Because we're still talking about it. Doesn't seem much of TNG lite episode. Janeway got accused of being a murderer. I never really thought much about this episode, but I might to have to watch it again.

Perhaps its a case of looking at it in hindsight but I can't see TNG ever doing an episode with an ending like Tuvix.

 

[Herbert]

Serenity now..

Insanity later

 

[at Quark's]

Perhaps its a case of looking at it in hindsight but I can't see TNG ever doing an episode with an ending like Tuvix.

Kirk would have found a way to save all three of them.

Picard would ramble on about the ethical implications for about 25 minutes, sipping a lot of earl grey, and probably even find a way to invoke the prime directive in it. Which way the decision ultimately would go, I can't say. Probably perform the separation procedure but store the Tuvix consciousness on the holodeck first until a way can be found to give him a body or some such thing.

Sisko would have done the same as Janeway, but ending the episode with a speech in his private quarters:
" I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. I'm sure about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the crew. So I will learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log."

Archer probably would just have remarked that ''They're dangerous, those transporters... but one day, we'll get it right". And then it would have been time to feed Porthos.

 

[fireproof78]

People trash stuff I like all the time. DS9 was never really respected by some and I like tons of stuff others hate. For example I am the one guy who liked the "Green Lantern." I might be the only guy on the planet that liked it. It's okay though for others to dislike it or see flaws because everyone is different. It doesn't really bother me all that much. Don't get so upset that people might not like "Voyager" or like it as much as you do. Also like I said I did like "Voyager" I just didn't love it.

Jason

I pretty much the same way. Most of the films I enjoy, most of the TV shows I like, do not fall under the general consensus of "enjoyed."

So, I'm used to people not liking what I like. I don't like a lot of Voyager, not because "it's cool" but because it wasn't enjoyable for me, most of the time. There are episodes that I can rewatch just fine in VOY, because they have some entertainment value, but those are few and far between.

But not many. DS9's ex post facto greatness has become holy writ. If you don't pontificate mastubatorily on DS9's 'arcs' and worship Ron D Moore as a visionary and forget that Ira Behr made us suffer through umpteen Ferengi episodes then you're automatically of lesser taste.

I happen to love DS9. More than Voyager. More than life, even, perhaps. But I'm not blind to the fact that it suffered the same maddening flaws that have beset every other Trek series before and after. Some baby steps towards trans-episode storytelling don't change that.

It's the same thing with TWOK. It's a gold standard for Star Trek films that, frankly, has its own set of problems, and I get tired of it being used as the yardstick by which all Trek is measured.

As for DS9, I don't think Ron Moore was a genius, but I do enjoy how DS9 was set up, and the characters and the changes they went through.

Not perfect, but what in life is? I'd still rather watch Bashier and Garak than Neelix and Tuvok. Different strokes and all that.

 

[Refuge]

What is TWOK?

Until I found these forums I would have thought DS9 was considered the lame duckling of the franchise. The dud post for a Captain because it was not a Star Ship. I felt sorry for Sisko but he was such a stuffed shirt, oh but now I'm DS9 bla bla bla ing, lol.

 

[Refuge]

Doh, I worked it out Wrath of Khan.

It WAS the best. Makes Cumberbatch look like an accountant.

 

[Tracy Trek]

TWOK is the the second Star Trek movie with the original cast. The Wrath of Khan. TWOK.

Edit: sorry, didn't realize you had posted again.

Actually I thought Picard was a stuffed shirt. Or he had swallowed a rod.

 

[Refuge]

Thanks though. These Captains can have that posture!

Kirk and Janeway were more fluid.