The Pegasus...

[gillmanjr]

Hello all. First off I wanted to introduce myself, I'm new to the forum. I don't know why I have waited so long to join a ST forum. I've watched every episode of TNG at least a dozen times, probably like everyone else on here. I'm also a fan of Voyager, but not like TNG. Never cared much for DSN, but to be honest I've never gotten past the first season so maybe I need to give it more of a chance.

So anyway, on with this thread. My favorite episode in TNG is probably The Pegasus, or its at least in my top 5. But there is something about the episode that has always bothered me, I wanted to get some other opinions on this. When the decision is made to take the Enterprise into the asteroid, why didn't someone suggest separating the saucer section??? It seems so logical given the circumstances at the time. They could take the drive section into the asteroid and leave the saucer outside. They would have much more space to maneuver in the asteroid plus the saucer section could keep a lookout for the warbird. I think the writers overlooked that possibility. Is there any reason why they shouldn't have done that?

 

[MacLeod]

Been a while since I watched this episode but they could always have used a smaller craft like say a shuttlecraft.. But I might be forgetting a reason as to why they couldn't.

 

[gillmanjr]

Data recommends against a shuttlecraft because of the possibility of the gravitational forces inside the asteroid overpowering a shuttlecraft's engines.

 

[Herbert]

Data recommends against a shuttlecraft because of the possibility of the gravitational forces inside the asteroid overpowering a shuttlecraft's engines.

Correct.
The idea of separating the saucer from the drive section is a valid point though. I explain that one away by saying that would not have fit the plot Let's face it, if you watch the episodes enough times, you can't help but think about plot holes or instances of "why didn't they do it that way?"

 

[gillmanjr]

I know what you are saying. Because integral to the plot of this episode is the fact that they ended up having to use the cloaking device to escape from the asteroid. But they easily could have still worked that into the episode. Perhaps the warbird sneaks up on the saucer section and disables it. Then we end up at the same place, the drive section gets sealed inside the asteriod and they have to use the cloak to escape. I'm just saying I think it would have been more realistic and a more exciting plot line if they had separated the ship. Above all else there is the fact that you don't see a separation sequence after The Best of Both Worlds.

 

[JasonJ]

Why? I think it's two fold.... first, they probably didn't have the budget to shoot a saucer separation scene, and couldn't reuse one. Second, it's a lot less dramatic of an entrance (exit?) if the star drive section emerges from the asteroid and decloaks... much more impressive to have the entire huge ship doing it.

 

[Dukhat]

The problem here is that there are a multitude of times in TNG when separating the saucer would have been a logical idea, but never happened, not just in "The Pegasus." But in this case, let's look at the options.

1. Have the whole ship go into the asteroid, as in the episode. If they hadn't been able to escape with the phase cloak, they would all have been goners.

2. Separate the saucer, and keep the saucer outside while the stardrive section goes into the asteroid. Worst case scenario? The stardrive section gets stuck or damaged, and the saucer (with only impulse engines) is a sitting duck against the warbird.

3. Separate the saucer, and keep the stardrive section outside while the saucer goes into the asteroid. This is actually a more logical choice than 1 or 2 because you can pilot the saucer with minimal crew, and even if the saucer got stuck or damaged, the stardrive section has a better chance of defending itself against the warbird (or at least have a better chance of escaping with warp drive.)

 

[Timo]

An important point of the whole exercise was to keep it secret from the Romulans, though. If the ship split, then the half that didn't go inside the rock would have to go into hiding somehow.

Perhaps we could add this?

4. Separate with great huff and puff, explain that two ships will conduct the "survey for gaseous anomalies" more efficiently than one. Have one half (probably stardrive, for its better coping-with-the-unexpected abilities) "find" something remarkable and disorient the Romulans with the discovery, while the other half (saucer, as you can't warp or fight inside a rock anyway) slips in and salvages the Pegasus.

Since so much is at stake, perhaps the stardrive should still be the one to go in and get out, with the saucer used as bait and, if necessary, expended?

In order to think proper tactical thoughts, Picard would need to know more than he did, though. But Pressman could arguably tell him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[somebuddyX]

In the deleted scene Picard asked Rick Berman if they could separate the saucer and says fine as long as he's paying for it. Picard mumbled something about not using money in the 24th Century.

Also whatever they said in Best of Both Worlds when they suggested separating the ship might have been the same reasoning here.

 

[gillmanjr]

The problem here is that there are a multitude of times in TNG when separating the saucer would have been a logical idea, but never happened, not just in "The Pegasus." But in this case, let's look at the options.

1. Have the whole ship go into the asteroid, as in the episode. If they hadn't been able to escape with the phase cloak, they would all have been goners.

2. Separate the saucer, and keep the saucer outside while the stardrive section goes into the asteroid. Worst case scenario? The stardrive section gets stuck or damaged, and the saucer (with only impulse engines) is a sitting duck against the warbird.

3. Separate the saucer, and keep the stardrive section outside while the saucer goes into the asteroid. This is actually a more logical choice than 1 or 2 because you can pilot the saucer with minimal crew, and even if the saucer got stuck or damaged, the stardrive section has a better chance of defending itself against the warbird (or at least have a better chance of escaping with warp drive.)

I can't think of any other episodes off the top of my head where I thought they should have separated the ship. And certainly not the extent of this episode. I also don't agree with your 3rd option that you suggest here. The reason being is twofold: the primary reason why I think they should have separated the ship is because Picard was strongly against taking the Enterprise into the asteroid because of the risk to the ship. The saucer section is where most of the people (civilians) live. The drive section is mainly engineering, cargo bays, and other operational areas, etc. Taking the saucer into the asteroid would presumably still put a lot of people at risk, defeating the purpose. The second reason is because they need the power of the warp drive to prevent possibly being overpowered by the gravitational field of the asteroid.

 

[JasonJ]

... ya know.. of all the different ship configurations we see over the series, you'd think they could have squeezed in a rudimentary warp engine into the saucer section. Even something that just did warp 3-5 or so. If you need nacelles, have them lower out of the bottom or top of the saucer from under hatches. I think a BOP style warp engine on the back end would have been fine.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps if saucer separation had been viable from a budget and storytelling perspective then at some point they could have had the saucer upgraded during the run of the show.

Of course, then you have two warp cores that can breach. Double jeopardy!

 

[JasonJ]

Perhaps if saucer separation had been viable from a budget and storytelling perspective then at some point they could have had the saucer upgraded during the run of the show.

Of course, then you have two warp cores that can breach. Double jeopardy!

True... but no harm in ejecting one of them... you'd not be dead in the water then!

 

[DonIago]

Except that I suspect we saw the ejection systems fail more often than they succeeded.

 

[fireproof78]

Except that I suspect we saw the ejection systems fail more often than they succeeded.

None of the safety systems work, especially in disaster situations.

 

[DonIago]

The safety systems must be equipped with peril-sensitive sunglasses...

 

[Prax]

Of course, then you have two warp cores that can breach. Double jeopardy!

And double the Barrel Rolls!

 

[tomswift2002]

In the deleted scene Picard asked Rick Berman if they could separate the saucer and says fine as long as he's paying for it. Picard mumbled something about not using money in the 24th Century.

Also whatever they said in Best of Both Worlds when they suggested separating the ship might have been the same reasoning here.

Also it was the 7-foot model that could only separate, and I think the 7-footer was in storage by the time of The Pegasus. Plus in The Best Of Both Worlds and even later in Generations the majority of the separation sequence seen was done with stock footage from Encounter At Farpoint.
But I've always wondered why they didn't try to use the cloak on the Pegasus first before risking the entire D. Get the Pegasus clear of the rock, then transfer the cloak to the Enterprise, use tractors to grapple the Pegasus close to the D, and then extend the cloak around both ships.

 

[somebuddyX]

Also it was the 7-foot model that could only separate, and I think the 7-footer was in storage by the time of The Pegasus. Plus in The Best Of Both Worlds and even later in Generations the majority of the separation sequence seen was done with stock footage from Encounter At Farpoint.
But I've always wondered why they didn't try to use the cloak on the Pegasus first before risking the entire D. Get the Pegasus clear of the rock, then transfer the cloak to the Enterprise, use tractors to grapple the Pegasus close to the D, and then extend the cloak around both ships.

I could be wrong, but I thought it's not like half the ship is stuck inside rock, but the rock and half the ship's atoms all got smooshed together so all that remains of the ship are the bits sticking out. so they could use the cloak on half the saucer and one nacelle but it may not end up too great.

 

[Timo]

I thought this was what was being suggested, too. Although it's difficult to tell.

What I can't fathom is why the gravitational pull of the asteroid ought to be a problem. Surely the engines of the starship can compensate for it? I mean, they explicitly can compensate for the pull of a black hole! Just coping with the stresses of atmospheric flight above a Class M planet ought to be orders of magnitude more demanding than negotiating the pull of a bit of floating rock, or even shrugging off the crushing force of the asteroid possibly collapsing on the ship.

... ya know.. of all the different ship configurations we see over the series, you'd think they could have squeezed in a rudimentary warp engine into the saucer section. Even something that just did warp 3-5 or so. If you need nacelles, have them lower out of the bottom or top of the saucer from under hatches. I think a BOP style warp engine on the back end would have been fine.

The saucer does have warp drive - in the pilot episode already, it matches the performance of the stardrive section in racing to Deneb IV after the altercation with Q. Or, it is late by a few hours, but not by decades, as it necessarily would be if it lacked warp drive altogether. And in "Arsenal of Freedom", the saucer embarks on an interstellar journey towards the nearest starbase, without requiring or getting as much as a push from the stardrive section.

Generally, nacelles are optional for a warp drive. The saucer has those fancy blue-glowing squares on the upper aft surface, looking very warpengineish... (And very un-arboretumish, in case you were wondering. Why would an arboretum have windows into space, and be lit internally in bright blue? Any plants within would hate both features, which definitely are absent from any interior view of any arboretum in Trek.)

Timo Saloniemi