Was Obi Wan a bad mentor/teacher?
- Thread starter Mage
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I don't think it would have mattered if someone else had been his master. Palpatine would still have been a gentle corrupting influence, the temple would still be sat on a wellspring of the dark side, blinding them to what was coming.
No matter who would end up training him, it still would have come down to a choice for Anakin and the seeds of his selfish, possessive tendencies were planted the moment Qui-Gon separated him from his mother.
No matter who would end up training him, it still would have come down to a choice for Anakin and the seeds of his selfish, possessive tendencies were planted the moment Qui-Gon separated him from his mother.
I don't think I can accept that assumption. I feel it is one made from the fact that we already know Anakin's fate. But I feel that very few fans ever seriously consider what would have happened if Qui-Gon had not died, or if another Jedi Knight/Master with views similar to Qui-Gon or with a teaching style different from Obi-Wan had taught Anakin. I feel that George Lucas is the only one who truly knows.
And if I must be frank, I believe that Anakin was not the only one guilty of selfish and/or possessive tendencies. Other major characters were just as guilty.
Anakin's fall had at least partially due to his own personality. His attachments to family and his inability to let go. There are few, if any Jedi who would be able to quell that in Anakin. Add to this Palpatine, Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, who takes interest in Anakin pretty much immediately, before he is even assigned a teacher. The Sith Lord will always attempt to groom and foster the young Anakin's mind. Give an encouragement here, and subtle nudge there to keep himself as someone who has influence on Anakin as a friendly father figure opposed to whatever Jedi is the boy's master. Always keeping himself just close enough to manipulate the situation in his own favor. Feeding Anakin's ego, and keeping his emotions just where they need to be for the Sith Lord to twist them when the time was right.
Other major characters didn't express those tendencies with mass murder and spousal abuse. I think that's a somewhat crucial delineator, no?
I think everyone agrees that things may have been different had Qui-Gonn lived, but that sort of ignores the whole "fate" and "destiny" themes of the films. Everything in the SW universe seems to be predestined.
-The Sith are fulfilling a 1000 year plan.
-The old Republic and old Jedi order needed to fall(so it can be rebuilt)
-There's even a prophecy about Anakin. Not even the great Qui-Gonn can circumvent that.
It's the "will of the force" that all this happens...a sort of cosmic purging that must take place every so often to restore the balance of the universe. So Anakin was destined to do what he did, and no matter who trains him, he can never escape his fate.
-The Sith are fulfilling a 1000 year plan.
-The old Republic and old Jedi order needed to fall(so it can be rebuilt)
-There's even a prophecy about Anakin. Not even the great Qui-Gonn can circumvent that.
It's the "will of the force" that all this happens...a sort of cosmic purging that must take place every so often to restore the balance of the universe. So Anakin was destined to do what he did, and no matter who trains him, he can never escape his fate.
Not necessarily. If the Sith had been destroyed earlier, the prophecy would have been fulfilled without requiring any of that. It is made sufficiently clear that it is the Sith who are the problem, not the Jedi.
He can escape his fate. "Destiny", as Lucas uses the term, does not mean a predetermined outcome. It really means a possible destiny. And it is worthy of note that the term is thrown around in the OT primarily by the darksiders. The factions have very different ideas regarding the destiny of a certain character.
I'm sure she would have tried had she been given the chance. If she had thought of it before Obi-Wan and Anakin left Naboo, she'd have mentioned it. And then Obi-Wan would've gently reminded her that Jedi children are to leave their parents and the lives they were born into behind permanently, and bring up how dangerous Tatooine was; there was a very good chance her envoy wouldn't return, with or without Shmi. If Obi-Wan hadn't dissuaded her, Palpatine certainly would have.
Whether that happened or not, Padme had a planet to rebuild, ties to forge between the humanoid Naboo and the Gungans, a case against the Trade Federation to prosecute in the Republic courts, Jar Jar to keep out of trouble, a new Senator to elect to replace Palpatine, and she had to check up on her family and make sure they were okay... she had so much on her plate it would be totally understandable if the little slave boy and his mom slipped her mind.
No, it's not. Anakin's own murderous behavior does not excuse the questionable behavior of the other characters, including Obi-Wan's attempt to manipulate or encourage Luke to commit patricide.
I think the whole idea that Anakin was "too old" to begin his Jedi training is a load of shit. Luke started his training in earnest when he was 22 years old. Count Dooku still managed to become a Sith lord, despite his Jedi training. So, the whole notion that Anakin was "too old" is a load of nonsense to me. There is no text book answer as to why some Jedi became a Sith and why some didn't. And even those who didn't become evil still managed to make some really questionable decisions.
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You know...I'm looking at this thread and I see you knocking down a lot of other people's views, but I don't really see you proposing anything in their place.
Short of having Qui-Gon live, which people agree would have been preferable, what explicitly do you think could have been done to potentially avert this outcome?
"Obi-wan should have been a better teacher" is a glib answer and one that doesn't yield any useful material.
Short of having Qui-Gon live, which people agree would have been preferable, what explicitly do you think could have been done to potentially avert this outcome?
"Obi-wan should have been a better teacher" is a glib answer and one that doesn't yield any useful material.
Obiwan shouldn't have fathered Luke and Leia.
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Two Jedi, a Senator, a Duchess, and some death sticks....who knew?
I always knew there was something going on...
I don't think he can. Anakin was created for a specific purpose. He fulfilled that purpose. Qui-Gonn was given the secret to immortality for a specific purpose...to teach Yoda and Obi-Wan, to then guide Luke and/or Leia. The Sith have a grand plan, but "the force" has a greater plan. Anakin brings destruction, then later, with his son, restores balance, and the galaxy returns(well not so much) to its natural state of peace. Natural in the sense where all life has the greatest opportunity to live and grow.
Obi-Wan waves hand towards Padme "You would very much like to join the Duchess and I at my apartment tonight."
...the next morning
"You were very tired and fell asleep early last night....and your holo-ringer was turned off."
Obi-Wan to Satine "I told you it would work."
Satine "I should nevah have doubted;-)"
The living force is not the universe, it's (probably) the hive mind of the dead, or (maybe) strong force users from either the distant past or the distant future to transfix the present.
If it's the dead, the Jedi's numbers and influence far outweigh the Sith, but if it is just the influence of a few very strong force users at either end of time, then handful of Sith may be giving orders to billions of gullible Jedi peppered across the aeons.
If it's the dead, the Jedi's numbers and influence far outweigh the Sith, but if it is just the influence of a few very strong force users at either end of time, then handful of Sith may be giving orders to billions of gullible Jedi peppered across the aeons.
The Force exists within all living things. If the "force" truly has a "will", I know not whence department it comes from, nor who's in charge of writing prophecy, but it's there.
What does any of this have to do with Obi-Wan, Padme, and the Duchess?
Up a bit, you said "he was created for a specific purpose".
You didn't mean that he was created by the force for a specific purpose?
Which brings us back to "what is the force?".
You didn't mean that he was created by the force for a specific purpose?
Which brings us back to "what is the force?".
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Yeah but it feels that the only reason Luke didn't, with Obi-Wan and Yoda's training, go to the Dark Side is because he was supernaturally good, generally lacking in flaws and the flaws he did have being fairly minor (and even then he did end up coming close to the Dark Side).
Qui-Gon taking Anakin from Tatooine to begin with seems ethically questionable-he did tell Anakin "It's a hard life" (in response to Anakin's "I get to go with you on your starship!?!?") but that still feels like too much of an understatement, not really explaining how demanding and exacting the Jedi life was.
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