End of Deadlock always stood out to me, with the bridge on fire and smashed to bits. Maybe the crew built a new bridge and beamed the old one into space. Hey if Trek fans can build one surely the real guys should be able to.
Voyager is superior, it just is..
- Thread starter Refuge
- Start date
I think you're agreeing? You're right, of course. These things never occurred to me in the slightest watching the show back in 90's or when it came on Netflix. I just see it repeated all the time here as a reason why "Voyager failed" or why "Voyager's bad." It's most ironic to me now as it isn't at all true.
Yes, thank you! Deadlock is one of the episodes where the ship is heavily damaged, but they do discuss repairs, and how long it's going to take.
Scrolling through the list on Netflix, it looks like there's only a handful of episodes where the ship is really damaged like that. There's The Killing Game where the interior is modified, Scorpion where the exterior is modified, and Equinox. The only episode where in the next episode, everything is hunky dory with no explanation is Killing Game.
At least that I can think of without watching every episode...
"Deadlock" is one of the first ones that comes to my mind, as well as "The Gift." Again, their not major gaffs, but little details that add up to ruining the suspension of disbelief. This becomes even more apparent when we see things like "Year of Hell" and "Equinox" which shows how damage can takes its toll. Shuttles, torpedoes, etc, all add up.
Again, it goes against the base premise presented in the pilot for the show. I can enjoy it in kind of an episodic way, but that's not what was set out as the foundation of the show.
ETA: "The Killing Game" as an example of damage is a good one, since at least three decks were ripped apart and exposed in the holodeck.
I'm stating why I don't like the show. "Superior" is a matter of opinion, not hard fact.
Yes,it's the only example where damage was done, and no explanation was offered. Just like in "To The Death." Although, if this is your measuring reed, the latter is much more egregious for this "sin"
Another myth I feel compelled to bust: the oft repeated "Premise. The Premise. The Premise." Where does this premise come from? Certainly not the writers bible, or anything in the pilot.
In Caretaker, Janeway says "Blah blah blah we'll explore, follow our principles blah, but our primary mission is to get home. We will look for Lady Caretakers, wormholes, spatial blahs, and technology that can help us. Mr. Paris, set a course....for home."
Furthermore, all Trek is episodic. There's nothing wrong with that. Serialized television, from the invention of TV, until the 2000's was seen as "low-brow" and unsophisticated. This isn't Vgr vs Lost, or Vgr vs Sopranos, right? We're comparing Trek to Trek, I thought.
Another myth I feel compelled to bust: the oft repeated "Premise. The Premise. The Premise." Where does this premise come from? Certainly not the writers bible, or anything in the pilot.
In Caretaker, Janeway says "Blah blah blah we'll explore, follow our principles blah, but our primary mission is to get home. We will look for Lady Caretakers, wormholes, spatial blahs, and technology that can help us. Mr. Paris, set a course....for home."
Furthermore, all Trek is episodic. There's nothing wrong with that. Serialized television, from the invention of TV, until the 2000's was seen as "low-brow" and unsophisticated. This isn't Vgr vs Lost, or Vgr vs Sopranos, right? We're comparing Trek to Trek, I thought.
There's a certain amount of projection I think. Someone accused me of it recently, of making a straw man. Yet I genuinely didn't think I was doing that. So the myth that Voyager had a premise to account for every nut and bolt and maintenance issue to guarantee her credibility, as a vehicle both figuratively and literally, is born. It seems petty to me, it's not like there weren't resources in the Delta quadrant, yet to others it must be this .. issue. I always think when someone gets punched in the face on shows it would damage them. This isn't a documentary. No scars allowed!
Back to your point though. The premise of the show was the journey home. Adventures along the way. Simple really.
Back to your point though. The premise of the show was the journey home. Adventures along the way. Simple really.
Last edited:
I think there was talk about limiting resources and having Maquis conflict behind the scenes based on Ron Moore's recollections of the development of Voyager in an interview he did after leaving Trek. Right from Parallax I knew what this show was going to be and was fine with it. If they were making this show now I'd have a different attitude about Voyager's available resources but at the time I didn't care and I think the position UPN put the show in didn't really allow it either.
Do any of the anti-Voyager people have any imagination? I mean like at all? Can you not imagine I dunno them build in shuttle craft with spare parts or heck even retrieving lost shuttles-or at least specs.
The whole Maquis issue is overblown-okay let's imagine this Israelis and Palestinians are sent back I dunno to 1500 BC-are they going to let issues thousands of years in the future overtake the need for cooperation under such circumstances-I don't think so.
Voyager characters bland?-I mean people do understand TNG spent a lot of Season Seven actually developing character background because it hasn't done so before.
The whole Maquis issue is overblown-okay let's imagine this Israelis and Palestinians are sent back I dunno to 1500 BC-are they going to let issues thousands of years in the future overtake the need for cooperation under such circumstances-I don't think so.
Voyager characters bland?-I mean people do understand TNG spent a lot of Season Seven actually developing character background because it hasn't done so before.
Well, Ron Moore didn't come to Voyager until Season 6, then left after 1 or 2 episodes, but we can read the writer's guide or "bible" which gives us the actual "premise."
Plus Ron Moore's like a hostile witness or something. His testimony is inadmissible in this court.
EDIT: That's an interesting analogy, Voth. I'm intrigued. You should go back in time yourself and sell that script to Rod Sterling. Then it would be on Netflix today. I'm trying to think of another analogy but I'm stumped. It must be time for bed
If that were a TV show about Palestinian and Israeli soldiers sent back to 1500BC I would hope there would be conflict. I would probably demand it.
These are all the same basic criticism Voyager always gets. There's another interesting thread floating around about how Voyager was much more heavily criticised for things that TNG and DS9 did (like holodeck episodes and time travel)
As far as maintenance of the ship....well for me personally I don't need to see screen time used up on someone painting the hull. My brain can make that assumption on it's own. I just always assumed that in the days/weeks between episodes they were making repairs.
Deadlock was mentioned. In the end they talk about the repairs.
TUVOK: Repair efforts are underway. Lieutenant Torres estimates we'll be able to return to the Bridge within three days.
JANEWAY: Good. I'm not sure how much longer B'Elanna can tolerate my standing over her shoulder in Engineering
As far as maintenance of the ship....well for me personally I don't need to see screen time used up on someone painting the hull. My brain can make that assumption on it's own. I just always assumed that in the days/weeks between episodes they were making repairs.
Deadlock was mentioned. In the end they talk about the repairs.
TUVOK: Repair efforts are underway. Lieutenant Torres estimates we'll be able to return to the Bridge within three days.
JANEWAY: Good. I'm not sure how much longer B'Elanna can tolerate my standing over her shoulder in Engineering
I had made mention of the ship condition, but only as a "nice to have" on at least a mention or brief demonstration of the maintenance. That's all. Not critical. One could always leave it up to imagination.
But where did Voyager go wrong? I don't really think it did. Of course there's always room for improvement. But even the dullest most inept episodes are good to have as a contrast to those that were terrific.
If there is ONE thing I wish was really different, it was the alien manifestation. So many humanoids, especially with weird and seemingly random physical traits. Remember the "pea pod nasal bridge" aliens? A slit open vertically across the bridge of the nose, with little pips lined up inside, like peas in a pod. That was it. WTF? Some kind of ultra sensory organ for picking up special smells? And then if not some little ear or nose thing, they make the whole head look lizard-like or fish-like. Maybe they should've leveraged CGI a bit more and embellished. It just seemed "too pedestrian", these subtle humanoid variations for aliens so very far from the Alpha quadrant. At least within one quadrant, one could kind of accept that humanoids are very, very much alike. Perhaps they needed an episode similar to what was done in TNG, where a "universal DNA" is discovered linking all humanoid lifeforms. Something like that. Some kind of discovery that given nature the chance to evolve intelligent mammals, the humanoid form seems to be the more favored one. My main complaint is that it often felt like Voyager was in the Alpha quadrant, as aliens were reminiscent of ones frequently seen in TNG and DS9.
But where did Voyager go wrong? I don't really think it did. Of course there's always room for improvement. But even the dullest most inept episodes are good to have as a contrast to those that were terrific.
If there is ONE thing I wish was really different, it was the alien manifestation. So many humanoids, especially with weird and seemingly random physical traits. Remember the "pea pod nasal bridge" aliens? A slit open vertically across the bridge of the nose, with little pips lined up inside, like peas in a pod. That was it. WTF? Some kind of ultra sensory organ for picking up special smells? And then if not some little ear or nose thing, they make the whole head look lizard-like or fish-like. Maybe they should've leveraged CGI a bit more and embellished. It just seemed "too pedestrian", these subtle humanoid variations for aliens so very far from the Alpha quadrant. At least within one quadrant, one could kind of accept that humanoids are very, very much alike. Perhaps they needed an episode similar to what was done in TNG, where a "universal DNA" is discovered linking all humanoid lifeforms. Something like that. Some kind of discovery that given nature the chance to evolve intelligent mammals, the humanoid form seems to be the more favored one. My main complaint is that it often felt like Voyager was in the Alpha quadrant, as aliens were reminiscent of ones frequently seen in TNG and DS9.
They have talked about repairs numerous times. But what would've felt more "real" is seeing the signs of them, especially on the outer hull. I don't buy it that they'll deploy people in spacesuits to work on the hull while the ship is moving. Or is it so easy to do during a stop-over near some planet while the crew forages for supplies? Some special "metallurgical regenerator" similar to the dermal regenerator, where a technician just points this device that shoots out a beam that "heals" the skin of the ship? Interior isn't as critical. It's the exterior that's the difficult one. Maybe they thought about it and dropped it due to costs (they would not be able to reuse footage easily). In any case, I think they could've had just a couple of episodes either showing their technique of perfect restoration or find some way of demonstrating some hull aging, to make it more believable. Year of Hell showed Voyager in its worst shape, but recovery was achieved the easy way -- time travel, back to the beginning before the Krenim were first encountered. But I think there were a few other episodes where Voyager sustained some pretty serious hull damage. That was completely fixed in the very next episode (like Equinox).
The alien appearance came from Gene Roddenberry himself. He had rules about how an alien could look. I guess they wanted to stick with that
For me it was easy to imagine that they stopped for repairs. They talked about stopping to collect food from planets so I always assumed the took that time to make more complex repairs. Plus in Nightengale they showed how B'Elanna had finally convinced Janeway to land for a full out maintenance overhaul (or at least as much as they could on their own)
Maybe others feel different but I personally didn't need to be flat out told about repairs. I can make the assumption on my own that it happened sometime that wasn't shown on screen. Just like when they go to the bathroom
No, no imagination here. That's why I watch TV.
The simplification of the issues with the Maquis and Starfleet.
Some things are nice to be shown, especially if some things are stated to be in short supply.For me it was easy to imagine that they stopped for repairs. They talked about stopping to collect food from planets so I always assumed the took that time to make more complex repairs. Plus in Nightengale they showed how B'Elanna had finally convinced Janeway to land for a full out maintenance overhaul (or at least as much as they could on their own)
Maybe others feel different but I personally didn't need to be flat out told about repairs. I can make the assumption on my own that it happened sometime that wasn't shown on screen. Just like when they go to the bathroom
For me, Voyager is not as enjoyable because of the characters, than anything else. But, I know that's just me.
Similar threads
