Voyager is superior, it just is..

[Refuge]

It's the imagination of the times I guess. I mean I think the word 'enterprise' not only suited the first series but the mission of the Star Trek's originators. It was an undertaking to advance a project that has found its home on TV. Maybe not everyone had TV back then but TV is a vehicle these days that is for the 'common people'. I don't know anyone without one. However in the Sixties imagine presenting the concept of Star Trek? I reckon the futuristic side of it would have been the easy part, the Sixties were a time for color, magic, revolution etc. etc., so its model for the future would have appealed to evolving generations.

Next Generation, to show my age, was more my time. I liked it a lot. Calling it 'Next Generation' appealed to me, it suited my youth. Yet it still in its own way needed a reference to the first one, to the Daddy. It was still Enterprise and it still borrowed a tone and opening sequence not unlike the original. That was okay, it was good.

Deep Space Nine, was original in its concept. A station. Who would have thought? Oh but I did miss the exploration.

I go to Voyager because I felt it moved. The ship, the name, the new quadrant. Not tied down by Starfleet and too many old scores. However that is where the creators lost their confidence. So I maintain not just my personal preference for the feel and enjoyment of Voyager, but that it has left us with the furthest vision.

Discovery in its meaning has a kind of one off limitation.. and taking it to an earlier time.. well enough, said. We need for it to work if there is any chance for progress. A Star Trek to carry on the legacy of the others needs to continue the story.. forward.

 

[at Quark's]

I just gave all the examples, especially from the first two seasons. You seem to have ignored it, and/or just haven't seen the show in a long while.

Isn't replicators a constant issue throughout the series? Wasn't Voyager the show that introduced "replicator rations?" In the first episode after Caretaker-Parallax, they make mention of what they are going to do to the ship to use energy better, produce their own fuels, etc. The Holodecks are explicitly mentioned. I'll let you go watch the episode since I'm sure it's been a while.

Yes. And that's the extent of it. Paying lip service to the concept. We rarely get to see actual consequences of any import -- more serious than having to eat Neelix' meals, that is. Whereas the old writer's credo is: 'show, don't tell', Voyager adopted a 'tell, don't show'- attitude in this regard.

There are some counterexamples, yes. For example showing Kess to be working in that airponics bay. Or having Paris double as a medical assistant even though he didn't like it. I would have liked more of that kind of sacrifices and solutions shown.

This is commonly said about Voyager, but people on the BBS who make this claim have so far only been able to come up with one example. This is particularly what I mean by "myths." It comes from hyperbole and generalizations. And it ignores the other series. I'll give a counter example: In Ds9, remember when Sisko teamed up with the Jem Hadar and they found Iconian portals and what not? Yeah, well these rogue JH attack DS9 in the beginning of the episode. They destroy an ENTIRE UPPER PYLON. The next week, it's back. Its never mentioned how/when it was fixed, let alone where they got the materials.

I will not say other series are perfect. Yes, they should have shown a longer reconstruction time for that pylon. But in these shows, it's more forgivable because of their premises. DS9 and the ent-D both had regular access to major Starfleet services (and probably industrial replicators, too).

Although the ent-D was supposed to be on long-term exploration, they seemed to strawl through familiar territory with major facilities every two months or so. Which is an error in NextGen as far as I'm concerned. Either do the 'where no one has gone before' thing, or ferry those admirals/ diplomats /scientists to Fed locations to and fro, but don't keep alternating between these two every other week or so.

DS9 started out in a backwater but gradually gained importance after the discovery of the wormhole and the dominion war, so Starfleet dispatching reinforcements, upgrades and other help would become more and more likely during the run of the series. And if that weren't enough, they're in close to an entire planet -ultimate owners of the station- that can give them emergency assistance if so required, send out a dozen constructor ships, if need be, to speed up repairs.

Voyager had no such access. The best they should have been able to hope for was a friendly race along the way here and there that could help them out with some trade.

Oddly enough, the writers kept a torpedo count until season 5 when they ran out. It was no longer feasible. And by that point, there's no reason why we would need an explanation for them buying, or building more. They lost about ten shuttles confirmed.

I don't mind them transgressing the torpedo count. I can buy that they were irreplaceable initially, but that the crew learned to produce them over the years. Building a new torpedo doesn't seem like a major construction effort, if you have the required materials. Building fleets of new shuttles is a different story, that should be a lot harder. But I'll agree that this is just my subjective assessment.

What about DS9 losing runabouts and just giving the replacements the same name? Mind you with no mention of getting new runabouts. At least with the Defiant, There's some dialogue to explain away production issues. Even though it's super contrived.
Much of it is...

Much of it doesn't need to be...

Shuttle gets lost, Sisko files a report explaining that it was through no fault of their own, and next month's Starfleet supply ship brings a new one. Easy. I agree about the renaming part, that was just plain silly.

Much of this is beholden to a double standard that you may not be willing to appraise the other series with.

Yes, of course I'm using a double standard. Because, unlike the other series, Voyager chose to go with a premise that excludes any support from Starfleet. What else would you expect?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Deep Space Nine, was original in its concept. A station. Who would have thought? Oh but I did miss the exploration.

*cough* Babylon 5 *cough*

I go to Voyager because I felt it moved. The ship, the name, the new quadrant. Not tied down by Starfleet and too many old scores. However that is where the creators lost their confidence. So I maintain not just my personal preference for the feel and enjoyment of Voyager, but that it has left us with the furthest vision.

Whereas my thought was that Voyager was a "side story" with no impact on events in and around the Federation.

Not that I don't like Voyager, I just didn't feel it moved Trek forward as a whole. It was the story of one ship.

Discovery in its meaning has a kind of one off limitation.. and taking it to an earlier time.. well enough, said. We need for it to work if there is any chance for progress. A Star Trek to carry on the legacy of the others needs to continue the story.. forward.

In the same way Voyager was it's own thing, that's how I'm expecting Discovery to be except much moreso. They haven't outright said it, but from everything we've seen so far (new-look Klingons, for example) Discovery looks to be a reboot, based on the Trek we know but not really a part of it.

 

[LJones41]

I don't regard "VOYAGER" as the most superior series of the STAR TREK franchise. Personally, it is my favorite. But the most superior? No. I thought "DEEP SPACE NINE" had the potential to be the most superior. However, I felt that in the end, there was no one series that was the most superior. "DEEP SPACE NINE" did not quite live up to its potential in my eyes, thanks to the writing.

 

[Trekkin]

Y'all wrong.

The Animated Series reigns supreme.

 

[DS9forever]

DS9's runabouts never had the same names.

 

[Sophie74656]

I don't regard "VOYAGER" as the most superior series of the STAR TREK franchise. Personally, it is my favorite. But the most superior? No. I thought "DEEP SPACE NINE" had the potential to be the most superior. However, I felt that in the end, there was no one series that was the most superior. "DEEP SPACE NINE" did not quite live up to its potential in my eyes, thanks to the writing.

I agree with this. Voyager is my favorite by far but I think that DS9 was at times better.

I was always more drawn to the characters in Voyager over any other series from my very first viewing

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I could forgive the lack of continuity in Voyager if the writing standards of individual episodes was more consistently high. The series had its share of gems but in general the writing standards were mediocre and unchallenging. They colored very much within the lines and followed pretty standard TV formulae. Wonderbread television.

I don't care about the torpedo thing but it's pretty damn stupid they didn't even keep count of how many crewmembers died. And if it really mattered to the writers, they could have written off the torpedo thing with a single throwaway line in one episode. "We managed to start buliding our own torpedoes!" That's all they needed and they didn't even bother with that. This is symptomatic of the general laziness of the writing.

 

[Vger23]

I think the concept that some of your opinions are based on (the OP and others) is entirely flawed. The timeframe that a Star Trek-based series is set in does not need to have any bearing on the quality of the stories and characters, which are the primary factors that determine whether or not a series is successful/enjoyable or not.

Voyager and Enterprise are actually perfect examples, ironically. Voyager first and foremost had the chance (and premise) to be yet another very different show, in much the same way that TNG was different from TOS and DS9 was different from TNG. But, Voyager ended up as the first series in the franchise that actually failed to be different and move the franchise into a new direction. It was essentially a copy of the TNG formula and philosophy, with a couple more short-term arcs and different go-to aliens. They never took advantage of the unique setting or potential for unique character relationships. Voyager's premise promised almost what nu-Galactica became: a diverse, desperate group of people thrown into a battle for survival. Voyager had the advantage of the well-developed Star Trek universe and the "exploration of alien worlds/civilizations" capability that nu-BSG lacked...but never even came close to making that leap.

Enterprise was much the same, though I'd argue was more successful in differentiating itself than Voyager.

The new films, despite their controversy and the fact that they re-created/re-imagined existing characters...managed to be DIFFERENT and take the franchise in new, untested directions. This proves that (despite your personal feelings on the success/likability of that experiment) you don't need a new timeframe to advance the franchise and be different enough to challenge the fans and bring in new ones.

This is not to say that Voyager or Enterprise are "bad," so no need for all the Janeway fans to throw rotten eggs. It simply means that the entire thought process behind "a new show or movie needs to be set in a post-Nemesis timeframe for it to be different and interesting" is flawed and incorrect. A new show needs to be well-written, have a unique premise / approach, great characters and then needs to EXECUTE on that for it to be interesting and successful.

 

[Refuge]

You're funny, suggesting someone's different basis for enjoyment and ranking is flawed because it is different than yours. And no that is not a rotten egg, more like a head scratch.

No one has said one little thing that has convinced me Voyager is not superior, not one. It has the superior time frame, the freshest vision, and it lasted the distance. Here's another time frame to consider. How many years did Enterprise run? How many months will Discovery last? Dare I suggest that might be a yardstick for superiority?

 

[Voth commando1]

I kind of have to laugh a youtube commenter claimed Seven's T&A carried the show

Well T'Pol's T&A didn't carry Enterprise.

 

[Refuge]

This is tough because I have to keep looking this stuff up. Picture wise they should have called their Seven a five. Bad hair..

 

[Prax]

Yes. And that's the extent of it. Paying lip service to the concept. We rarely get to see actual consequences of any import -- more serious than having to eat Neelix' meals, that is. Whereas the old writer's credo is: 'show, don't tell', Voyager adopted a 'tell, don't show'- attitude in this regard.

When I said "I gave all these examples" it was in reference to your assertion that the Starfleet/Maquis character conflict wasn't explored.

Yes, they should have shown a longer reconstruction time for that pylon. But in these shows, it's more forgivable because of their premises.

That's really sugarcoating it, no offense of course. They didn't show any reconstruction time, and it's never even mentioned. Upper Pylon(3?) is essentially a skyscraper in space. It's enormous. Its supposedly 80 stories tall(or so MA says). The station itself is supposed to be almost a mile in diameter. How could it be fixed in less than a week? Did they borrow one of Empok Nor's upper pylons?

And even if this is more forgivable on DS9(for some unknown reason) I still haven't heard any examples of what Voyager did in this regard that is "less forgivable." Apparently there's only one episode where Voyager is damaged and then fixed by the next week without any comment. How is voyager so guilty of this?

Voyager had no such access. The best they should have been able to hope for was a friendly race along the way here and there that could help them out with some trade.

Exactly, good thing Voyager didn't pull a stunt like the upper pylon incident.

Building fleets of new shuttles is a different story, that should be a lot harder. But I'll agree that this is just my subjective assessment.

We're talking about ten lost shuttles here, over the course of seven years. We see them (as in shown, not told) building the Delta Flyer, a newly designed shuttle. And then they rebuild it in season 7, and even make changes to it. If this is possible, then do doubt building a little 2 seater shuttle craft, which is probably modular like most Starfleet equipment, seems well within acceptable limits of Suspension of disbelief. Like many of these criticisms, I never would have even thought of it if I hadn't seen it mentioned on the interwebs. It would be mission critical to maintain a full motor pool on any SF Vessel. If they left with say..8 shuttles, that means they kept 8 shuttles in the bay at all times, and had to replace one on 10 separate occasions.

And these are really non issues. As I type, I keep hearing Comic book guy's voice in my head, reading my text.

In fact, I have an idea!!! Every post on this thread should hereafter be read in Comic Book Guy's voice! If you're with me, say Aye!

 

[fireproof78]

I kind of have to laugh a youtube commenter claimed Seven's T&A carried the show

Well T'Pol's T&A didn't carry Enterprise.

Seven was at least a mildly interesting character. T'Pol really wasn't.

When I said "I gave all these examples" it was in reference to your assertion that the Starfleet/Maquis character conflict wasn't explored.

That's really sugarcoating it, no offense of course. They didn't show any reconstruction time, and it's never even mentioned. Upper Pylon(3?) is essentially a skyscraper in space. It's enormous. Its supposedly 80 stories tall(or so MA says). The station itself is supposed to be almost a mile in diameter. How could it be fixed in less than a week? Did they borrow one of Empok Nor's upper pylons?

And even if this is more forgivable on DS9(for some unknown reason) I still haven't heard any examples of what Voyager did in this regard that is "less forgivable." Apparently there's only one episode where Voyager is damaged and then fixed by the next week without any comment. How is voyager so guilty of this?

Exactly, good thing Voyager didn't pull a stunt like the upper pylon incident.

We're talking about ten lost shuttles here, over the course of seven years. We see them (as in shown, not told) building the Delta Flyer, a newly designed shuttle. And then they rebuild it in season 7, and even make changes to it. If this is possible, then do doubt building a little 2 seater shuttle craft, which is probably modular like most Starfleet equipment, seems well within acceptable limits of Suspension of disbelief. Like many of these criticisms, I never would have even thought of it if I hadn't seen it mentioned on the interwebs. It would be mission critical to maintain a full motor pool on any SF Vessel. If they left with say..8 shuttles, that means they kept 8 shuttles in the bay at all times, and had to replace one on 10 separate occasions.

And these are really non issues. As I type, I keep hearing Comic book guy's voice in my head, reading my text.

In fact, I have an idea!!! Every post on this thread should hereafter be read in Comic Book Guy's voice! If you're with me, say Aye!

DS9 has access to resources Voyager wasn't supposed to have. Voyager was supposed to be stranded and yet it never felt stranded during the series, save for very specific episodes when the writers decided to emphasize it.

For some, it's passable. For me, suspension of disbelief is broken, and entertainment value is diminished. With characters that I generally don't enjoy, it's just not a superior production for me. It has its moments, but I'll revisit DS9 or TOS first.

 

[Prax]

I don't care about the torpedo thing but it's pretty damn stupid they didn't even keep count of how many crewmembers died. And if it really mattered to the writers, they could have written off the torpedo thing with a single throwaway line in one episode. "We managed to start buliding our own torpedoes!" That's all they needed and they didn't even bother with that. This is symptomatic of the general laziness of the writing.

The crew count is pretty consistent. At the most excellent ex-astris-scientia.org, they show that except of one or two very specific crew counts(among dozens) they are usually quite accurate. What's even better: with all the extras included, there's about 140 people seen, and about 130 named and seen. This is pretty incredible considering that it's over the course of seven years. If they had shown, say 200 different crewmembers total, then there'd be a problem.

It always makes me sad to hear people on here call writers "lazy." It's a generalization to begin with, and also an unfair and uniformed opinion. Do you mean a certain writer of a certain episode was lazy? Or a certain writer was lazy during many episodes? Or are you saying that every writer of every episode of this show was lazy? I guess at least you have the courtesy to input "in general" into your generalizations, but what do I know? You're the doctor.

Voyager and Enterprise are actually perfect examples, ironically. Voyager first and foremost had the chance (and premise) to be yet another very different show, in much the same way that TNG was different from TOS and DS9 was different from TNG

You think that TNG was more different from TOS than VOY was from TNG? TNG: The show that used unused TOS and Phase II scripts, and recycled so many TOS episodes just adding the utopia angle. And Enterprise, the show that was truly different from all of them. The show that experimented with 3 different formats in just 4 seasons.

They never took advantage of the unique setting or potential for unique character relationships. Voyager's premise promised almost what nu-Galactica became: a diverse, desperate group of people thrown into a battle for survival. Voyager had the advantage of the well-developed Star Trek universe and the "exploration of alien worlds/civilizations" capability that nu-BSG lacked...but never even came close to making that leap.

What does this mean? I don't understand. And since when was Voyager's premise "a desperate group of people thrown into battle for survival?" I don't think we needed Voyager to be like BSG. A show where the characters are always immature, unrealictically unprofessional, usually immoral, and often despicable. If NuBSG was what you sought from Voyager, than be happy with NuBSG, we'll be happy they aren't the same show.

Enterprise was much the same, though I'd argue was more successful in differentiating itself than Voyager.

And when ENT does recycle plot elements, or sometimes even whole episodes, which well did they reach into? The Voyager well...

I hate to be the guy that chainquotes, so I'll just ask. It sounds like you're saying that it's Voyager and Enterprise fans who don't like the Abramsverse material, and wanted another 24th century show. Is that correct?

 

[maneth]

I don't hate Voyager by any means, but it's definitely my least favorite Trek show. The human characters, with the possible exception of Janeway, were written as rather bland folks to make the aliens and the Doctor and later Seven stand out. The ship was always pristine in every episode, even if it had been all but shot to pieces in the previous one, with no explanation given. (Compare with BSG that was made a scant decade later, and when it's been shot at, you can see the scars. Of course, the price of CGI dropped rather significantly in the intervening years.)
The later seasons are okay, if you like Seven. I don't and I think she was overused anyway, and I certainly don't blame Kate Mulgrew for feeling that Janeway was upstaged by Seven. So I don't enjoy the last four seasons as much as I might have, as they concentrate far too much on Seven and the EMH.
I also think that the conflict with the Maquis was solved far too quickly and easily. It would have been solved at some point, I'm certain, as the issues involved were utterly irrelevant 70 years from home, but it was just swept under the rug and that was a bit of a disappointment.
I would have enjoyed Voyager more if it had been written more as a serial and less episodic.

 

[Prax]

DS9 has access to resources Voyager wasn't supposed to have. Voyager was supposed to be stranded and yet it never felt stranded during the series, save for very specific episodes when the writers decided to emphasize it.

For some, it's passable. For me, suspension of disbelief is broken, and entertainment value is diminished. With characters that I generally don't enjoy, it's just not a superior production for me. It has its moments, but I'll revisit DS9 or TOS firs

Are you talking about the upper pylon 3 thing? What incident on Voy is not passable? No one has yet given examples of "the ship is all destroyed in one episode, then pristine in the next."

 

[Prax]

The ship was always pristine in every episode, even if it had been all but shot to pieces in the previous one, with no explanation given

See what I mean, guys? Where's the proof? And the rest of this post repeats the same old tired critiques that I strongly contend are mythical.

 

[maneth]

See what I mean, guys? Where's the proof? And the rest of this post repeats the same old tired critiques that I strongly contend are mythical.

It's been a while since my last rewatch, and I don't remember it well enough to give you chapter and verse. It's just the feeling I'm left with, which is just as valid a reason for liking or disliking a show as more objectively "provable" things. Of course, it's harder to refute.

 

[Refuge]

See what I mean, guys? Where's the proof? And the rest of this post repeats the same old tired critiques that I strongly contend are mythical.

This is difficult for me to comment on because I'm almost dumbfounded by its importance. I had no idea people were holding a grudge against Voyager because the ship was maintained. I mean Tom and co built the Delta Flyer twice out of cereal packets and some ice cream sticks! C'mon of course there were resources on board Voyager as well as what they scavenged, bartered, and replicated. They even had to look for body parts for Seven at one stage. They had Neelix a trader as their ambassador. I suppose one could trawl through the episodes to cite resource management.. but I really don't care. Just like I don't care where they got their toilet paper or sonic shower soap.