Getting Rid Of Kim?

[Sophie74656]

Seriously! This is the greatest forum I've ever seen, and the only one I've joined.
I don't think it's nearly as much as is often made out to be. She had four or five episodes(which is usually what the captain gets in a season) focused on her in season 4, but after that, things kind of go back to normal.

I think she was a Doctor in her alternate timeline. It might have been interesting to have two doctors, with sometimes differing recommendations, like Crusher in that one episode.

That totally reminds me of Ezri. She wants to leave DS9 because she thinks Worf hates her. She talks to Sisko about transferring, and he's like "Hmmm, with all this war stuff going on, we could really use a counselor" What's that Sisko? DS9 needs a counselor? You speak as if such a thing is pure novelty. What happened to O'Brien's counselor?

Ezri's like "I don't have the education or training for such a job."
And Sisko replies "I think 7 lifetimes is enough experience for such a simple job as a counselor. In fact, I remember many a times after a long night at the bar, Curzon gave me all kinda good advice! Here's an extra pip for your collar.... Lieutenant"


...IN YO FACE, TROY!

Seven doesn't actually have as many episodes as people make it out to be. She had a lot in season 4 when she was new but after that it averaged out to a few episodes devoted to her per season. Just like most of the characters.

As for being a councelor...7 lifetimes, yes....3 years of life underground, no

 

[Voth commando1]

True she and the doctor probably had half the later show devoted to them-maybe.

 

[Voth commando1]

Chill

NOBODY has expressed a desire to see a long drawn out story about a person suffering. What myself and others have said is that exploring her entire 9 year lifespan could be interesting and could open the door for some dramatic scenes. But if you do the math she would be at the most 8 years old at the end of the show, so it wouldn't be the end of her life anyway. Despite your personal wish that it be some cheerful Kes show, Star Trek is a drama that has is a vehicle for commentary on social and political issues. That was the whole reason Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek in the first place.

In my opinion her 9 year lifespan is interesting and the one unique thing about her species. Pointy ears, mental powers, long life spans, that's all been done before.

Short lived space elves-most elvish looking species have long lives so it is a subversion of a common trope.

 

[Sophie74656]

True she and the doctor probably had half the later show devoted to them-maybe.

I'm watching through season 7 currently and I think it feels that way because there are some episodes that they feature heavily in that are back to back

 

[Refuge]

I think she would have been an excellent counselor. She had empathy and an excellent understanding of other people and how they react. Than would more than enough compenaste a relative lack of experience.

Anyone who have the interest of tear-wrenching dramas about death and disease can watch "The Bold And The Beautiful" or some other melodramatic soap opera where the death struggle of one person can take a whole season.

Star Trek is an optimistic series about exploring, adventure and a better future. Death occurs but isn't dragged on in endless melodrama. Let's keep it that way.

To be honest, I watched one family member wither away in a hospital bed for more than a year before finally passing away. I didn't find that tear-wrenching drama entertaining at all and I don't find it entertaining on TV either.

Not to mention that most of those who want to keep the nine-year lifespan and have some melodramatic, tear-wrenching ending of Kes's life and also found pleasure in watching the insulting character destruction in season 6 are those who hate or strongly dislike the character. A coincident? I don't think so.

As for her role in sickbay, she would definitely continue to do a great job there as well. But there is so much more she could contribute to outside sickbay as well.

Just to pick up on the comment about loss of life in real life, it can leave you raw and yes it makes one want escapism in their entertainment. In part that is why I called myself refuge.

I'm not so sure from my perspective if I liked or disliked Fury. I felt Kes would have been VERY powerful so subduing her seemed too easy. It was bittersweet.

Kes could have so easily contributed her empathy and compassion as a counselor. When Seven came on board she took over the relationships, much of the life Kes had. She became Janeway's new protege. For a while at the beginning I thought B'Ellana would take that role but she was a little older, a little tougher. Seven also became the one the Doctor was drawn to. However the difference between Kes and Seven was the sweetness. Kes was child like and innocent, Seven was sexual and robotic.

 

[Voth commando1]

Kes was mishandled in that writers failed to account for their potential of someone with so short a lifespan-you would learn fast-she did with the doctor but it wasn't really reflected upon. Love fast-Neelix that was odd. Live fast-so every moment would be something she couldn't waste or ignore.

A lifespan that short means you are well aware that death isn't very far away at all. That would motivate you to behave and act in such a way I think so you would have the most and best influence on those who outlived you.

 

[Refuge]

The writers gave us mixed messages about the Ocampa. If their life span limited their worth then why did the Care Taker bother? I mean the writers sent us on this journey because of the Kes's of the universe. Their life span was limited in context of ours, just like a human might seem like an Ocampa to old Vulcan. That doesn't mean a human feels they have to speed through their development on the Vulcan time clock.

Kes had her own journey and I think the writers dropped the ball. Luckily they picked up another ball, a silver, shapely ball!

 

[Sophie74656]

The writers gave us mixed messages about the Ocampa. If their life span limited their worth then why did the Care Taker bother? I mean the writers sent us on this journey because of the Kes's of the universe. Their life span was limited in context of ours, just like a human might seem like an Ocampa to old Vulcan. That doesn't mean a human feels they have to speed through their development on the Vulcan time clock.

Kes had her own journey and I think the writers dropped the ball. Luckily they picked up another ball, a silver, shapely ball!

I think the writers gave Kes/Lien a fair chance. She had several episode where she was the lead and I think she never really delivered anything good. I don't think anyone was at fault. I just think she was a poor choice for the role

 

[Voth commando1]

I and the other poster mean the Ocampa both IU as a species and a thematic and plot point.

Warlord is often stated as her best-I don't know if I ever finished it. She clearly strained a lot.

Honestly any of the late season 3 eps seem like the writers giving her a few last chances to show she could do it and they came to the conclusion she couldn't.

 

[Refuge]

As a viewer not knowing any of the behind the scenes deliberations I never picked up on either the character or the actress not delivering. It's only reading here that it seems to be a justification for her going when 'Harry' was supposed to. I didn't know that either.

Do you really think that the writers who had been supposedly ready to ditch Harry can now be seen retrospectively as treating the Kes character with a different filter now? That all along they were giving the Kes character chances and tests? If they were going to keep her and fire Harry then her last chances were not that. Her last chance was lost when Harry's last chance was overturned and he was 'saved'. Not based on her role or delivery.

The conclusion was to bring in a body. Someone needed to go. All of a sudden the writers could write for this body, that is their job. Kes was thrown under bus for that. Harry was a lucky passenger on that bus.

 

[Prax]

This is how it actually went down. Ya see, the producers were in a panic that Garrett Wang, an A-List actor, wouldn't sign another three year contract and grace the show with his presence any longer.

They were so certain he was gonna take one of the big movie gigs people were begging him for. Like, I think he was offered the role of Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace...and I'm pretty sure he was offered the role of a character called Neo? I forget the title.

Annnnyways, they hired Jeri Ryan to fill the spot, and at the last minute, Wang met Rick "Badboy" Berman himself. He told him "You know what Rick, I'm still young. I think I'm in this for the long haul. Lemme see that contract. Make it 4 more years! I'm down for the trek, because it's not about the destination that matters. It's about the Journey!"

They shook hands, and the rest is history.

[The events depicted in this account are based on a true story.]

 

[fireproof78]

The writers gave us mixed messages about the Ocampa. If their life span limited their worth then why did the Care Taker bother? I mean the writers sent us on this journey because of the Kes's of the universe. Their life span was limited in context of ours, just like a human might seem like an Ocampa to old Vulcan. That doesn't mean a human feels they have to speed through their development on the Vulcan time clock.

Kes had her own journey and I think the writers dropped the ball. Luckily they picked up another ball, a silver, shapely ball!

The worst kind of ball.

As for Kes, I personally felt she was was not as fully explored as she had the possibility to be. I personally think that "Before and After" was one of the few episodes were a lot of those potential plot threads were explored.

I also think that Kes had the possibility of bring a certain level of "joie de vivre" to the Delta Quadrant, as Voyager explores the unknown, bringing a different perspective. I think she could have viewed the entire journey as the entirety of her life. Possibly living long enough to see Earth, with her family. Not saying it has to be Tom Paris or anything, but perhaps she found someone else.

Seven was interesting, but I would have liked to see more of Kes.

 

[Voth commando1]

This is how it actually went down. Ya see, the producers were in a panic that Garrett Wang, an A-List actor, wouldn't sign another three year contract and grace the show with his presence any longer.

They were so certain he was gonna take one of the big movie gigs people were begging him for. Like, I think he was offered the role of Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace...and I'm pretty sure he was offered the role of a character called Neo? I forget the title.

Annnnyways, they hired Jeri Ryan to fill the spot, and at the last minute, Wang met Rick "Badboy" Berman himself. He told him "You know what Rick, I'm still young. I think I'm in this for the long haul. Lemme see that contract. Make it 4 more years! I'm down for the trek, because it's not about the destination that matters. It's about the Journey!"

They shook hands, and the rest is history.

[The events depicted in this account are based on a true story.]

I know your being sarcastic but they way you described that was both funny and awesome at the same time.

 

[Lynx]

I think the writers gave Kes/Lien a fair chance. She had several episode where she was the lead and I think she never really delivered anything good. I don't think anyone was at fault. I just think she was a poor choice for the role

I must once again state that Jennifer did an excellent job in portraying Kes and that she was fantastic in the episodes where Kes was the main character. There was no reason at all to ditch her.

If she was given her chance, she took it and she really delivered what she should and more.

And all fault were on the writers and producers. They were rude and stupid.

Refuge wrote:

Just to pick up on the comment about loss of life in real life, it can leave you raw and yes it makes one want escapism in their entertainment. In part that is why I called myself refuge.

I'm not so sure from my perspective if I liked or disliked Fury. I felt Kes would have been VERY powerful so subduing her seemed too easy. It was bittersweet.

Kes could have so easily contributed her empathy and compassion as a counselor. When Seven came on board she took over the relationships, much of the life Kes had. She became Janeway's new protege. For a while at the beginning I thought B'Ellana would take that role but she was a little older, a little tougher. Seven also became the one the Doctor was drawn to. However the difference between Kes and Seven was the sweetness. Kes was child like and innocent, Seven was sexual and robotic.

Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive sometimes but I have experienced loss a couple of times in my life and I guess that's the reason why I don't want it pushed down my throat when I watch something I normally would like.

As for that pathetic, insulting crap episode in season 6, I really hate it. It was deliberately insulting certain fans with its morbid character destruction. Add to that a badly written story with lot of flaws and contradictions and you have the worstepisode ever made in the history of TV series.

As for your statement of Seven "taking over" the relationships Kes had, you did hit the nail on the head. It's probably the reason why I still find it so difficult to like the character. I've experienced something similar with one or two rock bands I like when certain band members have quit or been fired and replaced by others who have been supposed to take over the role of the former member, like seeing a favorite guitar player leaving or being fried from the band and replaced by someone who's copying the old favorite's guitar licks but doing that in a different and for me unacceptable way.

In fact, I still see no logical reason, other than the "sex factor" for bringing in Seven. They already had a great cast so why don't use it? I see no reason for kicking out Kes (or Kim either). Instead they should have used their skills to come up with good stories about the characters they already had.

 

[Sophie74656]

I must once again state that Jennifer did an excellent job in portraying Kes and that she was fantastic in the episodes where Kes was the main character. There was no reason at all to ditch her.

If she was given her chance, she took it and she really delivered what she should and more.

In YOUR opinion. I disagree.

And all fault were on the writers and producers. They were rude and stupid.

How do you know they were rude? Were you there? Calling someone stupid just because you disagree with something that they did isn't very nice

As for that pathetic, insulting crap episode in season 6, I really hate it. It was deliberately insulting certain fans with its morbid character destruction.

Just because you didn't like the episode doesnt men it was made deliberately to insult you. You re taking it personally for some reason.

Add to I see no reason for kicking out Kes (or Kim either). Instead they should have used their skills to come up with good stories about the characters they already had.

Again, YOUR opinion. Since she was removed then clearly there was a reason. Good or bad. Just because you don't ike that decision doesn't make it wrong. And in MY opinion the writers were good. They wrote great stories.

 

[Refuge]

The writers could still have been stupid though..

I think for anyone who has lost a job and had that justified, it can stick in your throat. My Step Mother worked in a Pharmacy for years and received a lot of praise from the customers and fellow staff. When she turned seventy it happened to be just when the business needed to downsize. She was let go.

Shortly thereafter a young trainee was hired. Yep.

 

[Sophie74656]

The writers could still have been stupid though..

I think for anyone who has lost a job and had that justified, it can stick in your throat. My Step Mother worked in a Pharmacy for years and received a lot of praise from the customers and fellow staff. When she turned seventy it happened to be just when the business needed to downsize. She was let go.

Shortly thereafter a young trainee was hired. Yep.

Yes loosing your job is never good. BUT.....in Hollywood what happened to Lien is the industry norm. Many of the actors in Trek (all series) have said how unheard of it was in their industry to be steadily employed for 7 years. With Lien it was very standard...contract ended and wasn't renewed. She wasn't upset and moved on. Those are her words.

 

[Voth commando1]

I've read in supernatural the writers let the two main actors fill in the blanks in their lines as they trust the actors so much to stay and act in character.

In a show like Trek that often has a seven year run that sounds like a good idea. By the sixth or seventh season the actors ought to be comfortable enough in their roles they can behave and emote in a way that doesn't strain credibility and works to the benefit of the show.

 

[Refuge]

I hope I don't tread on toes here by suggesting an actor might be capable of being, well less than a repository of wisdom and grace. Apparently they are oracles who can never be questioned.. however, some of them are disappointing. I've seen some favourites being interviewed and talk about vapid! Like hyperbole and self-delusion, like, like who is this sad creature I thought was so smart playing a psychiatrist?? Every time I have seen Lauren Graham interviewed I think she's er.. really different.

Apparently Patrick Stewart and Hugh Jackman were allowed to improvise in Logan and it worked.

It could go either way.

 

[Voth commando1]

It depends on the actor and role. If their enthusiastic about it(or the money is good) they can be more trusted to improvise their lines and so on and it be more effective.