MACO fleet?
- Thread starter Baxten
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There's never been any indication of that, of course. Not once has a Federation employee been referred to as a 'marine' on Star Trek. And there have been plenty of occasions one would imagine we'd have seen them. They are conspicuous by their absence.Starfleet Marine (yes, they do exist, deal with it)
There's COLONEL West, of course. Sure, he's not specifically called a Marine, but it can be inferred that he is one.
You mean the man wearing the same Rear Admiral insignia as Kirk? It can be inferred that his name is Cornell West...
The actually interesting thing here in-universe is that the Romulan intel service for some reason gets US Army style ranks while their starfleet gets a mixture of Roman and US Navy ones. Is West a spook?
Timo Saloniemi
The actually interesting thing here in-universe is that the Romulan intel service for some reason gets US Army style ranks while their starfleet gets a mixture of Roman and US Navy ones. Is West a spook?
Timo Saloniemi
Kind of like how a US Army officer and a US Navy officer can have the exact same insignia, but one is a captain, and the other one is a lieutenant.
Providing that Starfleet did rid itself of the rank of Commodore, West would be (equivalent) an O-6, and Kirk would be an O-7.
So they could have the same insignia, without being the same rank.
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...Which is real-world precedent. Colonel being the same as Rear Admiral in turn goes against real-world precedent.
But since that never happens ITRW, we have our problem.
And although "two of something" is a universally confusing motif, applied on both the second commissioned rank, the second noncommissioned rating, the second level of competence and even the second time one does something in real militaries, it's not what we have here, either.
Timo Saloniemi
My interpretation is that that is more comparable to qualification tabs (like Ranger, Sapper) rather than necessarily an assignment tab or patch (like Mountain, Airborne or Special Forces). Potentially, UEDC Security Guard Askwith qualified in "Military Assault Command Ops" while in Starfleet which is why he's ranked as a Corporal rather than Crewman 2nd or 3rd Class.
^ I always thought Askwith was just meant to have a MACO uniform but the costuming department screwed up. 
Either that, or Askwith started in one service and cross-trained in the other.
But a costume mixup would be more likely.
Either that, or Askwith started in one service and cross-trained in the other.
But a costume mixup would be more likely.
From ENT: "Harbinger":
ARCHER: The MACOs' tactics and technology are two, three years beyond Starfleet's. Why not let them pass on some of that expertise? You don't agree.
Nothing specific about ground combat in that statement. And it still doesn't answer the question of why MACO was limited to foot soldiers when armed starships were already possible. Both MACO and Starfleet had to answer to the United Earth. Why was a non-military organization given armed starships over a military one? Unless, of course, Starfleet uses the outdated definition of navy, as it has been pointed out before.
I wouldn't make too much of that. "Military" and "naval" were often separated, but that was just a convention of language; basically it was a word for "armyish." "Military" was definitely used for navies in referring specifically to their fighting aspects, as opposed to the nautical aspects they had in common with the merchant marine. And the leadership of the British Royal Navy Navy was absolutely considered "military":
Queen's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions, 1879:
Royal Navy Navy List, 1908:
Yep, maybe not literally, but small detachments of foot soldiers who rode around on ships, that's the original definition of "marines."
Not on the same uniform, though. Even when BDUs were universal there would be a "U.S. ARMY" or "U.S. NAVY" tape over the right pocket.
But Starfleet captain is O-6 and we know what that uniform looks like. West's uniform had the accoutrements of flag rank, the gold front piping and the extra left sleeve band. But it was cut from the theatrical movie, anyway, so I'd have no problem ignoring it.
No, but if ground combat is what the MACOs do, then it only makes sense. Obviously they're not talking about starship tech if the MACOs don't have their own ships.
It's not that difficult of a question:
Why didn't the United Earth's only military organization, MACO, have its own fleet of military starships? Why was it limited to foot soldiers only? A military is tasked with defense of the state it represents. How could MACO defend the United Earth, if it could not even wage space battles on its own?
A military limited to foot soldiers is an outdated definition of military, qualifying Star Trek for regression or retrogression.
A navy, at its basic definition, is a group of ships. Starfleet vessels are a group of ships, an armed group of ships. By the modern definition, navy, as an armed force, always denotes a military fleet. That means whenever Starfleet makes a claim that it's not a military organization, it is either lying or using the outdated definition of navy, qualifying Star Trek for regression or retrogression.
It's actually not that surprising when you see 19th century naval references within Star Trek. That, however, does not qualify for futuristic science fiction.
It's really that simple. And some people thought that it would go in circles without a solution.
Why didn't the United Earth's only military organization, MACO, have its own fleet of military starships? Why was it limited to foot soldiers only? A military is tasked with defense of the state it represents. How could MACO defend the United Earth, if it could not even wage space battles on its own?
A military limited to foot soldiers is an outdated definition of military, qualifying Star Trek for regression or retrogression.
A navy, at its basic definition, is a group of ships. Starfleet vessels are a group of ships, an armed group of ships. By the modern definition, navy, as an armed force, always denotes a military fleet. That means whenever Starfleet makes a claim that it's not a military organization, it is either lying or using the outdated definition of navy, qualifying Star Trek for regression or retrogression.
It's actually not that surprising when you see 19th century naval references within Star Trek. That, however, does not qualify for futuristic science fiction.
It's really that simple. And some people thought that it would go in circles without a solution.
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If this is ultimately an attempt to backdoor in the same topic as the thread we just closed, then don't be surprised if this one gets closed. I'll give it a chance to be its own subject.
Things to point out about 2153.
A. Earth has one (and as far as we can tell only one) functional Warp Five ship.
B. The NX-01 Enterprise cannot destroy all life on a planet. They do not have the firepower. The closest they could get would be to ram the ship into the surface of the planet at warp speeds and have a combined kinetic and anti-matter explosion.
C. The MACO could have a lot of stuff, but the ability to go into the Expanse in time...no. They need a fast ship to get there, and the NX-01 is the only ride in town. The NX-02 Columbia won't be viable for about two years realistically at that point, and there is no information on if Intrepid had a Warp Five drive. If Franklin was around, than they might have some MACO Warp Four ships to give rapid movement to the various Earth colonies and human inhabited systems
D. Even if Franklin is around, it likely can't maintain Warp Four over the course of several months needed to reach the Expanse, much like Enterprise can't maintain Warp Five for long periods of time.
E. If Franklin is not around yet, than the MACO are restricted to Warp Two starships like about everyone else on Earth since the breakthrough past warp two was recent. Warp three was reach around ten years prior to the mission start. Warp four was never stated as the project being followed was the Warp Five Project. Enterprise can maintain Warp Four point Five reliably. So that was past at some point in the last ten years. Franklin stated as a Warp Four ship, would be the key, but that was also recent. Not much else to ship out on realistically.
A. Earth has one (and as far as we can tell only one) functional Warp Five ship.
B. The NX-01 Enterprise cannot destroy all life on a planet. They do not have the firepower. The closest they could get would be to ram the ship into the surface of the planet at warp speeds and have a combined kinetic and anti-matter explosion.
C. The MACO could have a lot of stuff, but the ability to go into the Expanse in time...no. They need a fast ship to get there, and the NX-01 is the only ride in town. The NX-02 Columbia won't be viable for about two years realistically at that point, and there is no information on if Intrepid had a Warp Five drive. If Franklin was around, than they might have some MACO Warp Four ships to give rapid movement to the various Earth colonies and human inhabited systems
D. Even if Franklin is around, it likely can't maintain Warp Four over the course of several months needed to reach the Expanse, much like Enterprise can't maintain Warp Five for long periods of time.
E. If Franklin is not around yet, than the MACO are restricted to Warp Two starships like about everyone else on Earth since the breakthrough past warp two was recent. Warp three was reach around ten years prior to the mission start. Warp four was never stated as the project being followed was the Warp Five Project. Enterprise can maintain Warp Four point Five reliably. So that was past at some point in the last ten years. Franklin stated as a Warp Four ship, would be the key, but that was also recent. Not much else to ship out on realistically.
