Starfleet's View on Its Sciences Division and the Star Trek Symbol

[Baxten]

Pay attention to the dialogue in this clip: it's the whole premise of the episode.

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They decided to associate a non-violent "playing it safe" solution with the sciences division, and a violent solution plus "arrogance", "lack of discipline" and "agenda" with the command division. Again, it makes zero sense because whatever he chose at the casino was supposed to be isolated to that event alone. Yet, they play it as if he continued in the same manner for the rest of his life.

And they made the non-violent solution look awful: his friend and his romantic interest reject him for preventing a fight. Combined with ST2009 where Kirk is an a**hole breaking every rule but is still handsomely rewarded, it looks like an agenda.

 

[GabyBee]

Again, this applies only to Picard. It is not indicative of Starfleet as an organization. Starfleet values science just as much, if perhaps more so, than just about anything else.

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" ~ Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[suarezguy]

It makes sense that captains and those really wanting it would value command over other divisions, that Picard was valuing security and engineering for their instrumental value, but that does suggest that sciences (or at least astrophysics, not sure how much related to other fields) doesn't lead to a lot of advancement, at least toward command; there are the counter-examples of Spock, Janeway and Dax but they may have had to have been really brilliant and also served under unusual captains.

I really don't get why pilot was considered a command rather than operations position/track.

 

[Baxten]

If it were only about the pips, Picard would have stayed in the command division but with a lower rank. Clearly, the episode is making a point about Starfleet divisions as well.

 

[GabyBee]

No, it's not. You just want it to be.

 

[fireproof78]

If it were only about the pips, Picard would have stayed in the command division but with a lower rank. Clearly, the episode is making a point about Starfleet divisions as well.

There could be other alternative explanations as well, that Picard needed to pursue his own strengths as a leader and a diplomat, rather than settling for something he was good at, but not willing to take a risk? It might not have been the division, but his talents being used in the wrong place.

 

[BillJ]

Picard obviously relishes making the big, life and death decisions, or else he'd be off studying archeology.

Whether or not he sees Starfleet as the military, he likes the power associated with starship command.

 

[Baxten]

^^At which point, Picard would assign Data the astrophysics lab thereby rendering disgruntled personnel obsolete.

By the way, I don't know about Data but at this point, Picard would call it insubordination and probably order the disgruntled astrophysicist into the brig, potentially followed by court-martial, being stripped of rank, and dishonourably discharged from Starfleet for breaking the subordination rules.

 

[Spot261]

Didn't we JUST have this thread?

And we will have it again, and again, and again.

Needless to say it will be dominated by

a) new posters thinking it's an interesting new question
b) old hands who just see it as the latest repetition in debates that have gone on in circles for years, typically with the same people literally saying the exact same things they were saying to each other quarter of a century ago

 

[Nyotarules]

No, it's not. You just want it to be.

Agreed sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Picard did not like his new position, he wanted his old position back. The episode was about Captain Picard in Starfleet not Starfleet the organisation.
And if Picard, Troi or Riker were implying being in the blue uniform does not lead to command then they were wrong. It worked for Jadzia Dax, Beverly Crusher and the Captain of the USS Grissom and other science vessels. The science department even has it own Admiralty.
But this not the first time Star Trek canon contradicted itself.

 

[fireproof78]

By the way, I don't know about Data but at this point, Picard would call it insubordination and probably order the disgruntled astrophysicist into the brig, potentially followed by court-martial, being stripped of rank, and dishonourably discharged from Starfleet for breaking the subordination rules.

Probably not. They would have requested a transfer long before then, recognizing that the Enterprise is where careers go to stagnate.

Agreed sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Picard did not like his new position, he wanted his old position back. The episode was about Captain Picard in Starfleet not Starfleet the organisation.
And if Picard, Troi or Riker were implying being in the blue uniform does not lead to command then they were wrong. It worked for Jadzia Dax, Beverly Crusher and the Captain of the USS Grissom and other science vessels. The science department even has it own Admiralty.
But this not the first time Star Trek canon contradicted itself.

It's almost like it's fictional O_o

Also, I'm trying to remember-what was the highest ranking Science division officer we saw or was referenced to?

 

[GabyBee]

Also, I'm trying to remember-what was the highest ranking Science division officer we saw or was referenced to?

Captain Krasnovsky

Sciences Division officers can become Captains in their own right. Case closed.

P.S. Doctor McCoy eventually attained the rank of Admiral, and was never seen wearing any other uniform other than Sciences/Medical Division.

 

[fireproof78]

Captain Krasnovsky

Sciences Division officers can become Captains in their own right. Case closed.

P.S. Doctor McCoy eventually attained the rank of Admiral, and was never seen wearing any other uniform other than Sciences/Medical Division.

Yes, I thought it was from Kirk's court-martial. Also, technically McCoy was retired, so not sure what capacity he served as in the Admiralty.

I personally would imagine that Starfleet would have chiefs over every major department, including Medical, Science and Engineering, but that's just my head canon.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, I thought it was from Kirk's court-martial.

I honestly don't know how much weight I would put in him wearing a blue dress tunic (it was probably Nimoy or Kelley's). We've had other instances of color and division not exactly matching up. See: Charlene Masters ("The Alternative Factor")

 

[GabyBee]

Canon is still canon.

 

[BillJ]

Canon is still canon.

That makes no sense. His division is never identified. We've had engineers wear blue, doctors wear red, tactical officers wear blue...

 

[GabyBee]

When has a tactical officer ever worn blue?

 

[BillJ]

When has a tactical officer ever worn blue?

"Arena". One of the tactical people Kirk takes to the surface is a blue shirt. He is the one that gives Kirk the coordinates for the phaser-grenade.

 

[GabyBee]

Well either way a blue uniform identifies an officer as a member of the Sciences Division. There are obviously tactical roles within each division, even Sciences.

And it still doesn't indicate in any degree that Starfleet as an organization has any sort of institutional contempt for science or scientists. Literally the opposite is actually the case.

 

[BillJ]

And it still doesn't indicate in any degree that Starfleet as an organization has any sort of institutional contempt for science or scientists. Literally the opposite is actually the case.

I never said it did. I merely stated not to place an overabundance of import on the uniform color. We have geologists in yellow, astrobiologists in red, engineers in blue. Sometimes it came down to what outfit fit the actor.

Is communications, operations (red) or command (gold)? Uhura wore both. We saw officers wear both colors during the series. Even a blue shirt there during "Where No Man...".