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Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

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^ Actually, the Navy's primary purpose IS war. This is, by definition, the purpose of a military organization, which the Navy explicitly is.

To be sure: They prepare for war, they train for war, they develop their equipment in anticipation of war, they devise strategies that would make them victorious in war. When they aren't engaged in a shooting war, they are engaged in cold wars, soft wars, metaphorical wars (e.g. "the war on terror" or "the war on drugs") and even foreign wars (the war against the Daesh).

In fact, despite our lack of an official DECLARED war in any meaningful sense, the United States has been in a state of war -- as in "active hostilities with live ordinance being deployed" almost continuously for the past 70 years. Most of the time it's a simmering low-intensity conflict like the Invasion of Grenada or the Malaca Pirates, other times it's regional clusterfucks like Vietnam, Somolia, Kosovo, Syria, etc. If the U.S. Navy isn't a participant in the fighting, they're definitely present and closely monitoring it.

When they're not at war, they're preparing for war, and when they're not preparing for war, Congress is busting their collective balls asking "Why the hell aren't you jarheads preparing for the next war?!"
 
^ Actually, the Navy's primary purpose IS war. This is, by definition, the purpose of a military organization, which the Navy explicitly is.

To be sure: They prepare for war, they train for war, they develop their equipment in anticipation of war, they devise strategies that would make them victorious in war. When they aren't engaged in a shooting war, they are engaged in cold wars, soft wars, metaphorical wars (e.g. "the war on terror" or "the war on drugs") and even foreign wars (the war against the Daesh).

In fact, despite our lack of an official DECLARED war in any meaningful sense, the United States has been in a state of war -- as in "active hostilities with live ordinance being deployed" almost continuously for the past 70 years. Most of the time it's a simmering low-intensity conflict like the Invasion of Grenada or the Malaca Pirates, other times it's regional clusterfucks like Vietnam, Somolia, Kosovo, Syria, etc. If the U.S. Navy isn't a participant in the fighting, they're definitely present and closely monitoring it.

When they're not at war, they're preparing for war, and when they're not preparing for war, Congress is busting their collective balls asking "Why the hell aren't you jarheads preparing for the next war?!"

Actually, while above many be true of the US Navy, this is mainly because they have farmed out most of their non-warfare work to the (still technically military but non-DoD) sister services the USCG and NOAA. The Royal Navy's mission statement reads "Maintenance of the UK Nuclear Deterrent through a policy of Continuous at Sea Deterrence; provision of two medium scale maritime task groups with the Fleet Air Arm; Delivery of the UK Commando force; Contribution of assets to the Joint Helicopter Command; Maintenance of standing patrol commitments*; provision of mine counter measures capability to United Kingdom and allied commitments, provision of hydrographic and meteorological services deployable worldwide, protection of Britain and EU's Exclusive Economic Zone."

*"The Royal Navy is currently deployed in many areas of the world, including a number of standing Royal Navy deployments. These include several home tasks as well as overseas deployments. The Navy is deployed in the Mediterranean as part of standing NATO deployments including mine countermeasures and NATO Maritime Group 2 and until 2010 had the now disbanded Royal Navy Cyprus Squadron. In both the North and South Atlantic RN vessels are patrolling. There is always a Falkland Islands patrol vessel on deployment, currently HMS Clyde.

The Royal Navy operates a Response Force Task Group (a product of the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review), which is poised to respond globally to short-notice tasking across a range of defence activities, such as non-combatant evacuation operations, disaster relief, humanitarian aid or amphibious operations. In 2011, the first deployment of the task group occurred under the name 'COUGAR 11' which saw them transit through the Mediterranean where they took part in multinational amphibious exercises before moving further east through the Suez Canal for further exercises in the Indian Ocean.

As the above proves, it is perfectly possible for military organisations to have multiple roles or purpose and AFAIK maritime forces particularly tend to be multi-function rather than being only a war-fighting branch.
 
To be sure: They prepare for war, they train for war, they develop their equipment in anticipation of war, they devise strategies that would make them victorious in war. When they aren't engaged in a shooting war, they are engaged in cold wars, soft wars, metaphorical wars (e.g. "the war on terror" or "the war on drugs") and even foreign wars (the war against the Daesh).

All things we've seen from Starfleet.
 
To be sure: They prepare for war, they train for war, they develop their equipment in anticipation of war, they devise strategies that would make them victorious in war. When they aren't engaged in a shooting war, they are engaged in cold wars, soft wars, metaphorical wars (e.g. "the war on terror" or "the war on drugs") and even foreign wars (the war against the Daesh).

Just like Starfleet then!

In fact, despite our lack of an official DECLARED war in any meaningful sense, the United States has been in a state of war -- as in "active hostilities with live ordinance being deployed" almost continuously for the past 70 years. Most of the time it's a simmering low-intensity conflict like the Invasion of Grenada or the Malaca Pirates, other times it's regional clusterfucks like Vietnam, Somolia, Kosovo, Syria, etc. If the U.S. Navy isn't a participant in the fighting, they're definitely present and closely monitoring it.

Just like the Federation then!
 
The Prime Directive, admittedly controversial in general let alone in application, forbids interference and gradually increasing participation with foreign conflicts, that's already a pretty big difference from modern militaries which in principle are to be used to protect or advance their country's interests rather than only defend their country and its people.

I admit to be somewhat anti-military, at least compared to highly admiring views. I don't think most soldiers are "Shoot first, ask question never" but I think it's a trope but an accurate trope that most do feel using force is (hypothetically and in actual present practice) more justified than the general population does and many feel that the civilian population has no understanding of what it's like to be in combat (or on the edge of conflict) and therefore really has no appropriate right to judge them or their leaders for their actions.

I don't think it's a good idea in real life or in a fictional better future for a military to be as involved in diplomatic contact or domestic law enforcement as Starfleet is depicted to be, I think it's a much better future for there to not be a military but for the exploratory and diplomatic organizations to also be capable of some law enforcement and most or all external defense.
 
I don't think it's a good idea in real life or in a fictional better future for a military to be as involved in diplomatic contact or domestic law enforcement as Starfleet is depicted to be, I think it's a much better future for there to not be a military but for the exploratory and diplomatic organizations to also be capable of some law enforcement and most or all external defense.

But like we've seen in Trek, if you think Starfleet isn't the military, your exploration and science divisions end up getting bogged down in never ending military tasks.

Military, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. It is how it is used by the parent organization.
 
In fact, despite our lack of an official DECLARED war in any meaningful sense
Congress voted into public law authorizations for use of military force, declarations of war do not require the words "declaration of war" in big bold print across the top of the authorizations.

In every meaningful sense we are currently at war.
modern militaries which in principle are to be used to protect or advance their country's interests rather than only defend their country and its people
Nicely worded, this is why nations go to war to protect allies, even if the nation isn't being immediately threatened itself.
 
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As the above proves, it is perfectly possible for military organisations to have multiple roles or purpose and AFAIK maritime forces particularly tend to be multi-function rather than being only a war-fighting branch.
Except that with the notable exception of hydrographic and meteorological services, all of the things you described above do, in fact, fall under the purview of naval warfare.

This is the same false equivalence from before. "Militaries can do other things too!" Sure they can, but the primary purpose of a military is to defend the homeland from its enemies, which means constant vigilance and exercise in preparation for invaders, actual fighting of invaders, and occasionally the pro-active neutralization of would-be invaders. That is the PRIMARY purpose of a Navy.

It is NOT the primary purpose of Starfleet. Canonically, we know that Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration and research, opening diplomatic contact with new Federation worlds, and identifying resources for those member worlds to exploit and enrich themselves. It is very likely that Federation worlds actually take responsibility for their own defense with their own militaries, in which case not only is this role secondary to Starfleet, but they are also secondary participants in any defensive war (the military of the threatened planet is primary and Starfleet would probably have to coordinate with local militias/armies in order to be involved at all).

Congress voted into public law authorizations for use of military force, declarations of war do not require the words "declaration of war" in big bold print across the top of the authorizations.

In every meaningful sense we are currently at war.Nicely worded, this is why nations go to war to protect allies, even if the nation isn't being immediately threatened itself.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the operative word there is "declared."

You can empower your executives to do anything they want; you can give the President the power to assassinate people without trial, nuke entire countries off the map, imprison terrorists, kidnap citizens, intimidate space aliens, club baby seals, fire torpedoes at stormclouds or rape every farm animal in the eastern hemisphere...

But a declaration of war is a LEGISLATIVE action, which declares that it is the law of the land to perform violence against the military forces of another country in order to achieve a specific objective. The legality of those "wars" is accepted only because nobody bothers to challenge it. It's kind of like the cloture rule in the U.S. Senate: by law, a bill can be passed with a simple majority (51 votes) but for the last 20 years or so it's become accepted that you actually need 60 votes because one political party has an unwritten policy to filibuster EVERYTHING. So the Constitution says 51, legal practice says 60.

But like we've seen in Trek, if you think Starfleet isn't the military, your exploration and science divisions end up getting bogged down in never ending military tasks.

Military, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. It is how it is used by the parent organization.
I agree with this in principle -- it's one of the more interesting things about the Halo Universe, IMO, which does a really good job of diving into the "guns v butter" argument in the face of an existential military threat. The potential for abuse of military power and/or mission creep of the military from being a defensive force to being a POLITICAL force is something that military science fiction doesn't cope with very well, mainly because American writers (and also readers) tend to have a blind spot for the military and always assume The Troops Are The Good Guys. This is one of the very ironic things about Starship Troopers: Heinlein originally wrote it half-satire, but for fans of the novel took it so seriously that some of the more radical concepts of the book -- like mandatory military service being a requisite for voting rights -- turned up in other works too.

My thought was the Federation insists on a demilitarized Starfleet because, being a multi-planet alliance, they want to remove the temptation for any one planet trying to dominate any of the others through military force. No matter how multi-cultural or diverse Starfleet is, it is STILL predominantly an Earth organization and shaped by Earth traditions and assumptions about the universe; its headquarters, training centers and even its rank structure and self image all derived from Earth. It's entirely likely that the militarization of Starfleet would be immediately followed by a Federation-wide insistence on sweeping limitations of Starfleet's mission scope and authority.

tl;dr; the Federation has the same problem as the United States under the Articles of Confederation: they need a powerful central government (and a strong vehicle for that power) but for historical reasons a powerful central military is politically impossible. So they compromised by creating a strong representative of the central government, but don't grant it the status (or many of the privileges) of a military. Starfleet is the PERFECT organization for that role: they can out-fight many militaries, AND they can handle non-military problems efficiently, which means they can be trusted to be the custodians of the Federation without implicitly threatening anyone's sovereignty.
 
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ACTIVE DUTY

Stafleet officers and ships are on active duty.

Merriam-Webster: Active duty

: employment as a full-time member of the military.​

TOS: "The Menagerie, part 1"

SPOCK: I believe you'll find [Captain Pike] he's still on the active duty list.
MENDEZ: We didn't have the heart to retire him, Jim. He's got you. Whatever he's up to, he's planned it well.​

TOS: "The Savage Curtain"

KIRK: The USS Enterprise is honoured to have you aboard, Mister President.
LINCOLN: Strange. Where are the musicians?
KIRK: That's taped music, sir. A starship on active duty never carries an honour detachment.​

TNG: "Ethics"

Captain's log, stardate 45587.3. Lieutenant Worf has been removed from active duty following a severe injury. . . .​

VOY: "Infinite Regress"

SEVEN [Ensign Stone's memory]: Personal log, Ensign Stone, Stardate 52188.7. I just completed my first week of active duty. . . .​

STARFLEET UNIFORMS, STAR TREK TNG, SEASONS 1 AND 2


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USN dress uniforms (similar to navy uniforms worldwide):
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Also similar to the USCG uniforms.

Additionally, Starfleet officers go on shore leave.

Therefore, Starfleet is a space navy and a military organization at all times. :)
 
No, it's not.

As has been stated numerous times in this thread, the primary purpose of a military organization is to fight a war, whether real of theoretical.

Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration of space. Defense numbers among perhaps a dozen or so secondary priorities of Starfleet.

Superficial similarities do not make Starfleet the U.S. Navy in space. Starfleet is Starfleet.
 
Superficial similarities do not make Starfleet the U.S. Navy in space. Starfleet is Starfleet.

First of all, no one is making the claim that Starfleet is "the U.S. Navy in space", or that Starfleet isn't Starfleet!?! The discussion is whether Starfleet is a (para)military organization, i.e. a "space navy" or "space coast guard".

Secondly we aren't talking about one or two "superficial similarities". It's been long proven that, with the exception of the advanced technology and sci-fi setting, in everything essential it is identical.
 
Fundamentally, all attempts at definition here are doomed to fail, because there is no obligation for an organization to be "like" a Space Navy even if it is one, nor any obligation for it to be "unlike" one even if it isn't one.

Any random bunch of people can decide to call each other by military ranks, dress funnily, and apply military terminology to whatever it does, be it chess or knitting. Nobody jails the Salvation Army for doing that, say.

In contrast, a military can decide to call itself something else, and again nobody will naysay - it just won't do to disagree with the people with the guns! Which is why we have First Citizens and Premier Secretaries as heads of state, Defense Departments instead of War Departments, and liberations instead of occupations.

Starfleet doesn't even need to be a "future" organization to get a full permit to use terminology differently from the way we use it. It suffices for it to be a "parallel" organization, as its roots are in a timeline that markedly differs from ours.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Starfleet would fit the definition of a paramilitary organization. But that does not make it a military organization, nor does it make it a "space navy". Starfleet is the successor organization to NASA and other space agencies of Earth and Federation worlds. Its purpose is to explore space. Everything else is secondary.

Under that description, Picard and Scotty (and others) are correct when they state that Starfleet is not a military organization.
 
The U.S. Navy, as established by the U.S. Constitution, was created for the primary purpose of Protecting maritime commerce. They were not part of the U.S. Armed Forces until 1947. They had their own Cabinet position(The Department of the Navy), headed by the "Secretary of the Navy." Yes, it is now part of DOD. The Navy was actually demoted, so to speak, in 1947.

This is the historical function of any peacetime Navy. Nowadays, the Navy is many things, including an air power, but they still serve this basic function. They are the ultimate deterrent from war.

And what do Navies primarily do during wartime? Protect shipping, blockade, lift blockades, etc. The Navy kept both civilians, and the army from starving during ww1 and 2. What was the German Navy up to during those wars? attacking shipping.
 
But like we've seen in Trek, if you think Starfleet isn't the military, your exploration and science divisions end up getting bogged down in never ending military tasks.

I don't see how-in the 70 years between TUC and TNG Starfleet (or parts of Starfleet) seems to have been involved in three armed conflicts, with the Tzkenthi, Talarians and Cardassians, and in the original series and TNG the ships were hardly constantly in combat nor did they seem to spend most of their time preparing for it.
 
So Starfleet simply goes by a different definition of "military". Which, as seen from several previous examples, is well precedented, a natural thing for a military organization to do, and no doubt also an inevitable development as the roles and responsibilities of the military evolve.

What's with this whole "Starfleet evolved from NASA" thing? I don't think there's anything in Star Trek dialogue that would support such a claim. Perhaps one could claim that UESPA evolved from NASA, but UESPA is not Starfleet, and in its few appearances exists just as separately from Starfleet as "the military" does, indeed warranting that separate name in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Starfleet would fit the definition of a paramilitary organization. But that does not make it a military organization, nor does it make it a "space navy". Starfleet is the successor organization to NASA and other space agencies of Earth and Federation worlds. Its purpose is to explore space. Everything else is secondary.

Under that description, Picard and Scotty (and others) are correct when they state that Starfleet is not a military organization.

Starfleet fits a definition of a paramilitary organisation, the Bajoran Resistance or Maquis also fit a definition of a paramilitary organisation.

The term is often used pejoratively (sp?) in the real world to describe a move by law enforcement towards an increasingly militaristic and politicized stance focusing on "stopping crime" rather than "keeping the peace".

I've heard the "Starfleet is the successor of NASA" arguement before, but while it is superfically correct it is mostly wrong as a) NASA is not an expeditionary agency, it is set up for manned missions of weeks, months at most (whereas navies by their nature are expeditionary forces capable of operating for months if not years a t time), and b) it isn't a successor of only NASA, but also at minimum the UKSA, CNSA, ESA/ASE, ISRO and ROSCOSMOS), c) While their primary missions are similar, their secondary missions make it legally and practically quite different.
 
Star Trek: Enterprise pretty explicitly shows Starfleet as an evolution of NASA and other Earth space agencies.
 
Simon Pegg also said this, on-screen, in Star Trek: Beyond
Again a alternate universe, and again is a different alternate universe Picard called the Enterprise a "battleship."
Being capable of and prepared for it doesn't mean that's their primary purpose.
So by that reasoning, just because Starfleet is capable of exploration doesn't make exploration Starfleet's primary mission.
Except that with the notable exception of hydrographic and meteorological services, all of the things you described above do, in fact, fall under the purview of naval warfare.
I believe the current HMS Enterprise is a military oceanographic vessel that (among other things) conduits hydrographic surveys. Knowledge of the oceans is quite important to military activities.
"Militaries can do other things too!" Sure they can, but the primary purpose of a military is to defend the homeland from its enemies
And that is most likely Starfleet's primary mission.
Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration of space. Defense numbers among perhaps a dozen or so secondary priorities of Starfleet.
Disagree, it's exploration that is one of Starfleet's secondary mission, and exploration isn't even on the top of the secondary list of priorities.
Superficial similarities do not make Starfleet the U.S. Navy in space. Starfleet is Starfleet.
The two separate organizations do have similar jobs, Starfleet is the organization whose primary job is protecting the Federation, offense and defense, projection of force, even provide deterrence when possible.

Guard the Federation's "shoreline."
 
Except for all the times it has been explicitly stated on-screen that Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration...
 
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