Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Baxten]

What I find ironic is whenever topics like these are made, some people start moaning that it's been discussed to death before. Yet, Star Trek itself continues to bring it up, especially in the latest films, as if it needs constant self-reassurance that it's not a military. Shouldn't its actions and terminology have been enough to convince the audience by now? Apparently, Star Trek itself doesn't think so.

Moreover, Robert Fletcher’s Costume Design – Forgotten Trek (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan):

'OK, if this is going to be the navy, let’s hem them look like the navy' [. . .] "It’s normal in any kind of military organization that you don’t have just one uniform. . . ."​

This is combined with David Marcus calling Starfleet military.

 

[psCargile]

C'mon BillJ, if Trek characters went through basic training with a drill instructor yelling in their faces, they would talk about it more than that one hard-ass instructor of astrophysics.

If the writers where thinking about boot camp, and understood the experiences of boot camp, it would have been in a script.

 

[GabyBee]

Yet, Star Trek itself continues to bring it up

And whenever it does so, it, in no uncertain terms, identifies Starfleet as a non-military organization.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Important? This is a bullshit session. But the evidence for Starfleet being the military far outweighs those statements. At least, for me.

But there's no reason to IGNORE those statements, since Starfleet being "quasi-military" fits just fine.

That was my point in the earlier analogy about Alan Turing. It's simply logic: when faced with contradictory data, you seek an explanation that is consistent with ALL of it. If you ignore some of the data or chose certain interpretations, you COULD interpret Starfleet as a purely military organization... but why would you ignore some of the data?

Is an explanation that fits ALL the data preferable to an explanation that fits your preferred outcome?

 

[Baxten]

HEAVY CRUISER

Constitution-class:

Wikipedia: Heavy Cruiser

The heavy cruiser was a type of cruiser, a naval warship designed for long range and high speed, armed generally with naval guns. . . .​

Canon.

 

[GabyBee]

http://m.chrysler.com/pt_cruiser/img/pt_cruiser_hotspot.jpg

This is also a cruiser.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

it's an exploration force with an important but secondary paramilitary role.

If you agree that Starfleet is paramilitary than why are you still arguing?! Case closed.

The Star Trek franchise does a poor job presenting military organizations in a realistic manner.

So did Hogan's Heroes or McHale's Navy but that doesn't mean that they didn't portray a military.

 

[Baxten]

C'mon BillJ, if Trek characters went through basic training with a drill instructor yelling in their faces, they would talk about it more than that one hard-ass instructor of astrophysics.

If the writers where thinking about boot camp, and understood the experiences of boot camp, it would have been in a script.

There are Advanced Tactical Training and Advanced Hand-to-Hand Combat courses in Starfleet, indicating that there are basic tactical and hand-to-hand combat courses for everyone as well.

And whenever it does so, it, in no uncertain terms, identifies Starfleet as a non-military organization.

Check the original post on page one that proves otherwise.

when faced with contradictory data, you seek an explanation that is consistent with ALL of it.

JAG and court-martial are not consistent with "paramilitary".

 

[Nyotarules]

The most up to date production (Star Trek Beyond) has the explicity simple line from Scotty that Starfleet was not a military.

So, nah.

No one has told Scotty the truth .....yet

 

[GabyBee]

Check the original post on page one that proves otherwise.

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration" ~ Jean-Luc Picard

JAG and court-martial

You need to cite something other than this. Starfleet has a JAG organization that conducts courts-martial. Starfleet also has a "Cetacean Ops". So by your standard, Starfleet could also be a future evolution of Sea World.

 

[Nyotarules]

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration." ~ Jean-Luc Picard

Which is why when the Federation goes to war they call Ghostbusters and not Starfleet!

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration" ~ Jean-Luc Picard

And you need to cite something other than this. Just because a character says something doesn't make it the Holy gospel.

 

[BillJ]

HEAVY CRUISER

Constitution-class:

Wikipedia: Heavy Cruiser

The heavy cruiser was a type of cruiser, a naval warship designed for long range and high speed, armed generally with naval guns. . . .​

Canon.

I don't even like this reference. It is so dumb that the computer would still be using a schematic for an Enterprise configuration that hasn't existed for fifteen years.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Also a cruiser:

There are Advanced Tactical Training and Advanced Hand-to-Hand Combat courses in Starfleet, indicating that there are also basic tactical and hand-to-hand combat courses for everyone as well.

For "everyone?" The science and medical officers sure as hell don't. That's a full third of Starfleet's personnel that leave out that specialization entirely.

In fact, the color coding of their uniforms should actually be a pretty big clue as to what's really going on here. It's entirely possible that advanced combat is only available as part of the Operations Track, while command-level officers only get basic.

JAG and court-martial are not consistent with "paramilitary".

Yes it is. Starfleet introduced the concept of "court martials" as part of its review process back in the 22nd century when it was UNQUESTIONABLY a non-military agency. From Kir'Shara

REED: Have you told Starfleet you're planning to warn the Andorians?
TUCKER: No.
REED: Have you any idea what the Admiral will do when he finds out?
TUCKER: I'll save you a seat at my court-martial. Is there anything else?​

And later in "Affliction"

REED: Captain, There are some obligations that go beyond my loyalty to you and this crew.
(Archer gestures the MACO to leave them alone.)
ARCHER: What the hell does that mean?
REED: I can't say any more.
ARCHER: You haven't said much of anything. You've told me a lot about your father, his years in the Royal Navy. Their tradition of honour and service. How do you think he'll react when he learns you're facing court-martial?
REED: I wouldn't know, sir.​

This is Earth Starfleet, again. They make NO secret of not being a military organization and I'm not even sure they would classify as paramilitary at this point. Especially in light of their Season 1 depiction:

REED: I've been thinking about a ship wide emergency alert. Something a bit more comprehensive than battle stations. We're taking far too long to react to potential threats. With a single order from you, or an impact to the hull, the plating could be polarised, weapons brought online, critical systems secured.
ARCHER: I appreciate your concern, Malcolm, but this isn't a warship.
REED: That's obvious, sir. During our last run-in with the Suliban we were unprepared for their boarding parties. When the Mazarites attacked they disabled our aft sensors with their first shot. The list goes on.
(He hands over a PADD.)
ARCHER: I can see that. Run this by the senior officers, get some feedback, and we'll talk again.
REED: Yes, sir.
ARCHER: And Malcolm, don't call it battle stations. Think of something less aggressive.
​

I know this is just crap worldbuilding, but seriously... don't tell me that this is a military organization whose most advanced ship doesn't even have a written procedure for "What do we do if somebody starts shooting at us?" They're professional scientists (sort of) but amateur soldiers at best.

 

[Baxten]

http://m.chrysler.com/pt_cruiser/img/pt_cruiser_hotspot.jpg

This is also a cruiser.

This is not a ship.

No one has told Scotty the truth .....yet

Moreover, the most up-to-date production does not exclude the writer being wrong.

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration" ~ Jean-Luc Picard

Yet, by that point, Starfleet already has JAG and court-martial, while the Enterprise-D has a dedicated battle bridge and phaser range (TNG: "A Matter of Honor") and is simultaneously armed as a battleship.

You need to cite something other than this. Starfleet has a JAG organization that conducts courts-martial. Starfleet also has a "Cetacean Ops". So by your standard, Starfleet could also be a future evolution of Sea World.

No, I do not.

Memory Alpha: Cetacean Ops

Cetacean Ops was a facility on board the USS Enterprise-D, in an alternate universe created by a time traveling USS Enterprise-C. (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise")​

 

[GabyBee]

battleship.

The only on-screen identification of the Enterprise as a "battleship" is also from an alternate universe.

 

[Baxten]

Also a cruiser:

Still not a ship.

For "everyone?" The science and medical officers sure as hell don't. That's a full third of Starfleet's personnel that leave out that specialization entirely.

If that were true, Starfleet would not have sent the captain of the ship, the XO/Science Officer, the Helmsman, the Comms officer and the Chief of Surgery on an armed "SWAT" rescue party.

Yes it is. Starfleet introduced the concept of "court martials" as part of its review process back in the 22nd century when it was UNQUESTIONABLY a non-military agency. From Kir'Shara

REED: Have you told Starfleet you're planning to warn the Andorians?
TUCKER: No.
REED: Have you any idea what the Admiral will do when he finds out?
TUCKER: I'll save you a seat at my court-martial. Is there anything else?​

And later in "Affliction"

REED: Captain, There are some obligations that go beyond my loyalty to you and this crew.
(Archer gestures the MACO to leave them alone.)
ARCHER: What the hell does that mean?
REED: I can't say any more.
ARCHER: You haven't said much of anything. You've told me a lot about your father, his years in the Royal Navy. Their tradition of honour and service. How do you think he'll react when he learns you're facing court-martial?
REED: I wouldn't know, sir.​

This is Earth Starfleet, again. They make NO secret of not being a military organization and I'm not even sure they would classify as paramilitary at this point. Especially in light of their Season 1 depiction:

REED: I've been thinking about a ship wide emergency alert. Something a bit more comprehensive than battle stations. We're taking far too long to react to potential threats. With a single order from you, or an impact to the hull, the plating could be polarised, weapons brought online, critical systems secured.
ARCHER: I appreciate your concern, Malcolm, but this isn't a warship.
REED: That's obvious, sir. During our last run-in with the Suliban we were unprepared for their boarding parties. When the Mazarites attacked they disabled our aft sensors with their first shot. The list goes on.
(He hands over a PADD.)
ARCHER: I can see that. Run this by the senior officers, get some feedback, and we'll talk again.
REED: Yes, sir.
ARCHER: And Malcolm, don't call it battle stations. Think of something less aggressive.
​

I know this is just crap worldbuilding, but seriously... don't tell me that this is a military organization whose most advanced ship doesn't even have a written procedure for "What do we do if somebody starts shooting at us?" They're professional scientists (sort of) but amateur soldiers at best.

Actually, this proves that even the United Earth Starfleet was a military organization; especially when you consider this dialogue:

ENT: "Cold Front"

TRAVIS: Looks like the Captain's going all out.
REED: I hope he's not planning to show them the Armory.
HOSHI: Don't worry, Lieutenant. They didn't look like the types who'd go around stealing military secrets.
REED: Still, we're not familiar with these species. Tactical systems should be off-limits. . . .​

 

[GabyBee]

Still not a ship.

It is as much a landship as a Starfleet vessel is a starship.

 

[Baxten]

The only on-screen identification of the Enterprise as a "battleship" is also from an alternate universe.

No. This is prime universe.

TNG: "Conundrum" (When the crew of the Enterprise lost memories)

WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid.
MACDUFF: We're a battleship.
WORF: It appears so.​

Combined with . . .

TNG: "The Enemy"

PICARD: Commander [Tomalak], both our ships [the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird] are ready to fight. We have two extremely powerful and destructive arsenals at our command. . . .​

A warship and a battleship.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If that were true, Starfleet would not have sent the captain of the ship, the XO/Science Officer, the Helmsman, the Comms officer and the Chief of Surgery on an armed "SWAT" rescue party.

"Starfleet" didn't. KIRK did that, because he's an asshole.

Actually, this proves that even the United Earth Starfleet was a military organization

No, it really wasn't. From as far back as the flashback in "first flight" we have:

T'POL: You obviously weren't dismissed from Starfleet. They must have found your argument convincing.
ARCHER: Convincing enough. We managed to avoid a court martial, but they grounded us for three months.
T'POL: Still, the NX programme continued.
ARCHER: Eventually. The Vulcans had us run every simulation they could think of for over a year before they finally admitted the engine would probably work. Eight months after that, Duvall broke warp three in the NX Delta. Five years later we laid the keel for Enterprise. You know the rest.​

And yet, 7 years after that incident:

ARCHER: talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel.​

So if nothing else, Starfleet is not the military in 2152. Which means it's definitely not the military in 2144, when Archer "narrowly avoids a court martial."

Don't ask me why Starfleet borrowed that term from the military, but they did.