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Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

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No, it was the direct quotes by Scott, Picard, Jonathan Archer, Admiral Gardner and Erica Hernandez, as well as the stated intention by Gene Rodenberry, that lead to this belief being popularized. But even without those very CLEAR lines of dialog, there's inescapable fact that Starfleet doesn't ACT like any recognizable military organization. They don't salute their superiors, they don't rigidly enforce the chain of command, they are notoriously lax in both discipline and battlefield readiness, and they eschew any of the traditional martial philosophy one expects from people who are -- and know themselves to be -- professional soldiers.

Star Trek doesn't exist in a vacuum. Many of its viewers are veterans themselves, and even the ones that aren't are bombarded by images of ACTUAL military organizations throughout the genre of science fiction. Starfleet isn't even TRYING to present itself as a military organization, which was actually one of the interesting things about the introduction of MACO during Enterprise: those guys WERE the military, and they knew it, and more importantly, Starfleet knew it.


Just point out to me any modern naval force that would allow any of the following actions:
1) A senior officer reports for duty every day for four and a half years without every putting on a uniform
2) Officers in the same chain of command openly fraternizing and/or marrying each other
3) Resign from the service with only a verbal notification, and be reinstated just the same, no questions asked
4) Steal a shuttlecraft -- or even an entire starship -- with the intention of going AWOL without being executed for it
5) Shoot your superior officer just because he's annoying (also without being executed for it)
6) Refer to a superior officer -- particularly your commanding officer -- by first name while on duty in full view of junior officers and/or cadets
7) Get publicly shitfaced while on active duty
8) Leave your post in the middle of a crisis to rescue your son/daughter/girlfriend/mother from some random problem
9) Leave your post without authorization to murder a politician from an allied country
10) Threaten to kill your superior officer just because he calls you a coward (and then have him come and apologize for it later!)

There's "military discipline." There's "military discipline is definitely lax in this unit." And then there's fucking Starfleet.


Enforced sporadically at best... apparently you only have to stand at attention when your superior is pissed.


Seriously? They almost NEVER do. In fact, that's one of the things that's always kind of bugged me about their lack of combat readiness: it takes them ENTIRELY too long to dial up anything like an adequate response and half the time it's something like "Target their weapons array only" or "Fire a warning shot, just enough to get their attention." (Seriously, Janeway? These guys are ALREADY SHOOTING AT YOU, how much more attention do you need?)


That wasn't the case in the 1960s. Interestingly, it (literally) isn't the case for the Colonial Fleet in BSG either, since Bill Adama has the authority to unilaterally authorize the release of nuclear weapons.

It IS still the case for the Russian Navy, though. (incase you were wondering).


Actually that question is kind of backwards. Why is it so important to see Starfleet as a military organization and why is it so hard to accept that Picard, Archer, Forest, Hernandez and Kelvin Scotty said it isn't? Starfleet NOT being a military doesn't contradict any of its known properties.

Can, and HAVE. Most such shows usually get canceled (or at least viciously mocked) because nobody believes a military organization would let that kind of shit slide.


Troi


FIFY


It is not, however, VERBAL. You can't just take off your badge and tell your CO "I quit!" and walk off the ship an hour later (or in Scotty's case, half an hour later). You SURE AS HELL can't verbally tell your C.O. "I unquit!" and have him give you your old job back just for the hell of it.

I mean, obviously you can in Starfleet. Try that bullshit in the U.S. Navy and you'll be swabbing the decks with your eyelashes for a year.


James T. Kirk stole a fucking STARSHIP, violated a direct order from a flag officer, and sabotaged the engines of ANOTHER starship in the process. He's lucky they didn't prosecute him for PIRACY! And yet with all that he did in that entire incident, he comes back to Earth and is facing judgement from a CIVILIAN official for, "Nine violations of Starfleet regulations." And they DISMISS the charges, just because Kirk's so awesome. Noticeably, the exact same thing happens in TUC, when Starfleet decides to let the Enterprise crew completely off the hook for violating their orders, violating Klingon space, violating the neutral zone, showing up at Khitomer even after being specifically ordered not to, AND for an armed incursion at a diplomatic function in order to arrest several superior officers, all of that on the testimony of a single witness.

There's a REASON military organizations do not take that kind of nonsense lightly. They let Kirk off the hook, then the entire concept of "military discipline" becomes more of a "suggestion" than an expectation.

Which kind of explains this conversation a hundred years later:
REMMICK: Very original, Captain. But how did that child acquire access to a shuttlecraft?
RIKER: Kurland is a highly qualified Enterprise Academy candidate, fully trained in many areas including shuttles.
REMMICK: And did this full training include discipline?
PICARD: Mister Remmick, young men sometimes make rash choices. Which is why Mister Kurland will receive a strong refresher specifically in discipline

Really??? A "strong refresher in discipline?"

You have any idea what would happen if an ROTC candidate stole a helicopter with the intention of running away to a foreign country? I'll give you a hint: it probably wouldn't be a "strong refresher in discipline."


It happened to Worf.
And there wasn't.


Between officers of the same or similar rank. I challenge you to show me an example of an O3 or an O4 who could get away with referring to an Admiral by first name on the bridge of his own flagship.


... where it is considered to be a major problem.

Not so much in Starfleet, where it's just really really funny.


... usually followed by a long speech by the C.O. about needing to stay focussed on the mission, ones responsibility to your fellow soldiers, and the need not to put your personal matters before duty. OR, if it's a really well-written show, with the C.O. actually helping with the rescue and then reprimanding his subordinate after the fact for letting the situation get that far out of control.

Worf AND Riker both leaving the bridge to save Alexander from a burning aquarium? My suspension of disbelief may have military discipline, but that storyline does not.


Duras.

Jesus Christ, he wasn't DEMOTED for that shit. Picard basically told him "The Klingons aren't pressing charges, so you're off the hook... but I really really mad at you." WHAT?!?!


I can, in fact, imagine ANY warrior-race guy saying this to Picard and getting away with it. i can imagine Shran saying it. I can imagine Tomalok or Admiral Jarok saying it. I can even imagine Urdnox Wrex sying it... but then, Urdnot Wrex aint military, and there's a 33% chance of Commander Shepard actually blowing his head off in response.

But that's kin of besides the point: can you imagine Klaus Wennemann saying that to Jürgen Prochnow? (I mean, WITHOUT getting immediately shot in the face?) Can you imagine Denzel Washington saying that to Gene Hackman on the Alabama?

Star Trek just isn't that kind of drama. That is to say, it is not a MILITARY drama, not even stereotypically so.


They can.

DUKAT: Are you telling me that one of the most heavily armed warships in this quadrant is now in the hands of Maquis terrorists? Do you have any idea what kind of response this will provoke from the Central Command?
SISKO: They'll probably want to send ships into the Demilitarised zone to conduct a search. We understand that. But any entry into the zone must be a joint operation between Cardassia and the Federation.
DUKAT: The Central Command will not be interested in any joint operation, Commander. They won't believe your story about transporter duplicates and security failures. They will assume that Starfleet wanted the Maquis to have the Defiant, and they will respond accordingly.
ODO: And what does that mean, exactly?
DUKAT: It means they will seize this opportunity to finally eliminate the Maquis. They'll send a fleet into that zone.
SISKO: Starfleet will cooperate in a search for the Defiant, but they will not allow the Central Command to use this as an excuse for a full-scale invasion.
DUKAT: Of course not. So you will send your own fleet into the zone to protect Federation colonies. But at some point the two fleets will meet, tensions will rise, nerves will fray, and someone will make the tiniest mistake.
SISKO: And we'll have a war on our hands.​

So "What's up with that" is that the DMZ is a zone the Cardassians have promised not to place any of their forces in or near, in exchange for Starfleet not doing the same. Which is the WHOLE REASON the Maquis were pissed off about this treaty:
HUDSON: There is no risk, Ben. None. I have been dealing with the Cardassians most of my professional life, and believe me, they are very pleased with what they got from the treaty. They are not about to risk all they've gained by sending forces into the Zone. They're much too slick for that. If I were you, I'd be very concerned with security along the Bajoran border.​
Basically: Starfleet told them "keep your military out of the DMZ and we'll let you keep those colonies" and the Cardassians responded with "Yes, of course! We'll gladly keep our military out of those colonies! Can't say we can keep our weapons out of there, though... second amendment and all that."


It's actually kind of interesting: from what we've seen, the Federation Government empowers Starfleet to operate as its legal representative in both a diplomatic AND criminal justice capacity. This is why Kirk, of all people, is empowered to pass judgement on Khan and deliver a legally binding sentence, and can open and close proceedings on the prosecution of Harry Mudd. Jean Luc Picard actually has the power to negotiate treaties with people -- as we see him doing in "Encounter at Farpoint" and can represent the Federation in diplomatic first contact situations to the point that his recommendations carry a huge amount of weight.

And this circles back to Kirk's trial in TVH: why is the PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION reading Kirk's charges before the entire council? Primarily it's because of the seriousness of the charges, but mostly it's because Starfleet REPRESENTS the Council in a very real sense, and therefore answers directly to it.

So in answer to your question:


By being the legal representative of the legislature that controls it and equivalent, in a way, to an entire branch of the Federation government. Or at least, empowered to act like one.


And it yet those engagements DON'T have serious consequences in Star Trek...

You never wondered why that was?

All these don't prove that Starfleet isn't a military service. It proves that Starfleet is a military service lacking in discipline.
 
And then there's the fact that Starfleet essentially authorizes genocide, with General Order 24.
Consider The Menagerie, when the Captain is kidnapped, one of the officers in a meeting to discuss the matter brings up that the the ship has the capacity the destroy half a continent.

If a modern day ship's Captain were kidnapped, would a junior officer seriously bring up how much devastation the ship's weapons could create?
Apparently you can protest your superiors actions without getting a boot in the face
This indicated that you have no knowledge how the military works, subordinate officers and enlisted can indeed protest the actions and practices of superior officers. There are mechanisms and procedures in place to facilitate this.
No, it was the direct quotes by Scott, Picard ...
As pointed out, Picard did refer to the Enterprise as a battleship in the Yesterday's Enterprise universe. One alternate universe's quote does not trump another.
 
Consider The Menagerie, when the Captain is kidnapped, one of the officers in a meeting to discuss the matter brings up that the the ship has the capacity the destroy half a continent.

If a modern day ship's Captain were kidnapped, would a junior officer seriously bring up how much devastation the ship's weapons could create?This indicated that you have no knowledge how the military works, subordinate officers and enlisted can indeed protest the actions and practices of superior officers. There are mechanisms and procedures in place to facilitate this.As pointed out, Picard did refer to the Enterprise as a battleship in the Yesterday's Enterprise universe. One alternate universe's quote does not trump another.
You can write protests but no you cant banter and say I'll report you I would know my father and grandfather were both in the army.
 
All these don't prove that Starfleet isn't a military service. It proves that Starfleet is a military service lacking in discipline.

I agree with this.

You can write protests but no you cant banter and say I'll report you I would know my father and grandfather were both in the army.

Actually, I'm pretty sure (disregarding the informality), informing someone that you are (considering) making a complaint would be the polite and professional approach as it may allow the situation to be resolved before involving outside parties. I can't think of any specific occassions in Star Trek but sometimes objections can bring things to the attention of the decision maker that they hadn't realised (in fact, objecting/suggesting alternatives is IFAIK one of the key duties of the senior NCO vis--vis junior officers.
 
PICARD: Mister Remmick, young men sometimes make rash choices. Which is why Mister Kurland will receive a strong refresher specifically in discipline

Mister Kurland was not a part of Starfleet. And, he was still a child.
 
https://www.google.com/#q=define+service&*



"Service" is mentioned in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", when Christopher asks what branch the Enterprise belongs to. Kirk responds "it is a combined service".

I know that some folks will come running with interpretations of why Kirk wasn't referring to the military. Why "service" in some medieval language doesn't mean what I or the dictionary thinks it means. But, I think the intent was pretty clear that Starfleet is considered some kind of military by Kirk, between the comment here and calling himself a "soldier" and mentioning "military aid" in "Errand of Mercy".

Again, everyone's mileage may vary. But Kirk's words should carry an equal amount of weight as Picard's.

Use of the word Service and wearing a uniform could just as reasonably make Starfleet into Bankers, Waiters, customer services representatives or butlers. And in he olden days, some of this things even have ranks. I have never been in the military, but I have held the title of Officer in various organisations. Decidedly civilian organisations. And all it means is a group in 'service' to another group. Like, for instance, a National Health Service, in service to the whole of a nation.
 
All these don't prove that Starfleet isn't a military service. It proves that Starfleet is a military service lacking in discipline.
To be clear: it's something that at least one of its major officers have SAID is not a military service, and also lacks military discipline.

This is contrast to the point raised earlier that "Starfleet exercises military discipline" to which those posts can be summarized as "And if my grandmother had treads, she'd be a tank."
 
Mister Kurland was not a part of Starfleet. And, he was still a child.
The next time a fifteen year old steals a helicopter and tries to run away to a foreign country and then manages to avoid serious jail time for it -- let alone being put back into the training program after a stern talking to -- let me know. I am very curious to see what the actual military procedure would be for that sort of circumstance.
 
And another one of its major officers have SAID that he is "a soldier not a diplomat".
Third time now: Being a soldier does not make you part of a military organization.

For that matter, being a diplomat does not make you an ambassador.

Even though it has a JAG office and courts martial! I'm guessing they're just role playing.
That or the term "court martial" is just a colloquialism now. As (the incredibly realistic projection of Commodore Mendez) put it:

MENDEZ: Screen off. Mister Spock, I'm truly amazed at your technical prowess in somehow manufacturing all this. I congratulate you on your imagination. But this is a court of space law, not a theatre.​

Considering that Spock's court martial was convened in the absence of a JAG, a prosecutor or any legal authority whatsoever -- apparently just having three command-level officers sitting in the room was sufficient -- it should be ABUNDANTLY clear that Starfleet's idea of what a "court martial" is differs enormously from that of any existing military organization and is, once again, an example of "shit that wouldn't slide in a real military."
 
Fraternization is forbidden in all branches of the military? Are you just making stuff up now? Any 2 members of the military may date or marry. If they are in the same unit, they must share rank. If the don't then one can transfer, but this isn't always the case. The commanding officer of any unit has the discretion to enforce whatever fraternization policy the see most beneficial to the unit.

I will address one more of your responses. The Demilitarized zone. That dialogue is only reinforcing the issue. I just love how you wrote
Basically: Starfleet told them "Keep your military out of the DMZ, and we'll let you keep those colonies."

No, that's not at all what's its like. The Cardassian War was fought to a stalemate. It was a border war. Cardassian and Federation colonies were intermingled. The two powers signed an agreement that neither side would allow it's military into this zone....this Demilitarized Zone. The Enterprise cannot enter this place, as we see Picard say and do.

The Cardassians were arming colonists and trying to continue their expansion by unconventional means. When the Federation colonists began arming themselves, the Cardassians thought that the Federation was also doing the same. And they may have been. Sisko violated the treaty when he took the defiant into the DMZ.

OK, maybe a few more points:

A shuttle is more like a government car than a helicopter. You have to be trained and licensed on each type of vehicle in the military to use it. Whether it be a Sedan, a Humvee, a helicopter, or a golf cart. Shuttles are allowed to be taken out by officers for all sorts of reasons. Just about anyone can learn and operate a shuttle in Trek.

Kirk saved earth. He was an admiral. They demoted him back to captain. If such a Hollywood scenario happened in real life, The military would probably "reward" that hero also. At least for PR they would.

I can no longer in good conscience debate with you, at least on this thread. I can't tell if you're being sincere and the posts are getting to long/time consuming.

Have a nice day.
 
:whistle:This is the song that never endsss, yes it goes on and on, my friendsss.

Some people..started singin' it, not knowing what it was..and they'll continue singin' it, forever, just because...

This is the song that never endsss,
yes it goes on and on, my friends...
 
Even though it has a JAG office and courts martial! I'm guessing they're just role playing.

:lol:

No, that's not at all what's its like. The Cardassian War was fought to a stalemate. It was a border war. Cardassian and Federation colonies were intermingled. The two powers signed an agreement that neither side would allow it's military into this zone....this Demilitarized Zone. The Enterprise cannot enter this place, as we see Picard say and do.

The Cardassians were arming colonists and trying to continue their expansion by unconventional means. When the Federation colonists began arming themselves, the Cardassians thought that the Federation was also doing the same. And they may have been. Sisko violated the treaty when he took the defiant into the DMZ.

Demilitarized obviously has a different meaning in the 24th century. It seems like every word in the 24th century has a different meaning, except "military". :lol:
 
Fraternization is forbidden in all branches of the military? Are you just making stuff up now? Any 2 members of the military may date or marry.
Provided they're not in the same chain of command or in the same unit, in which case it is not (colloquially) considered to be "fraternization." And even with two officers of the same rank it is at best highly discouraged and has been since at least World War II, where even members of the same family aren't allowed to serve together.

If you think I'm making that up, I'm going to have to ask you to source your objections, because I know of a number of naval officers who would be very pleased (not to mention very surprised) to discover that this is not the case. I'm not fucking joking about this: shit like that has ENDED PEOPLE'S CAREERS, and it's not something the military takes lightly.

No, that's not at all what's its like. The Cardassian War was fought to a stalemate. It was a border war. Cardassian and Federation colonies were intermingled. The two powers signed an agreement that neither side would allow it's military into this zone....this Demilitarized Zone. The Enterprise cannot enter this place, as we see Picard say and do.
That is incorrect. Both sides can and DO enter the demilitarized zone on a regular basis.

From Preemptive Strike:
SANTOS: Did you kill that Cardassian?
RO: Yes.
KALITA: That's a risky thing to do in the Demilitarised Zone. You can end up being hunted by Starfleet and the Cardassians.​

And this immediately after the bar scene where Worf and Riker show up -- IN the demilitarized zone -- apparently looking for Ro. So it is a matter of FACT that Starfleet can operate in the DMZ at least in a law enforcement capacity. This is probably not as true for the Cardassian military, although their law enforcement agencies and/or colonial militias don't have this problem.

Sisko violated the treaty when he took the defiant into the DMZ.
I can't think of a single instance of Sisko actually taking the Defiant into the DMZ, at least not while it was still enforceable. This is mainly because by the time the Maquis get active enough for Sisko to get involved again, the Klingons have already conquered half of Cardassian space and the DMZ is basically up for grabs.

He DOES take three runabouts into the DMZ with the intention of fighting the Maquis, and earlier took Gul Dukat into the DMZ to meet with Cal Hudson (at which point they observed an armed Cardassian ship fighting with a maquis vessel).

A shuttle is more like a government car than a helicopter...
No, it really isn't, as Kurland found out the hard way. You lose control of your car by oversteering, you maybe end up in a ditch. You lose control of a shuttlecraft in orbit, and it's flaming death, followed by a fiery crash and probably the contents of your warp core detonating on the surface of whatever planet you just crashed into. Aside from which, Starfleet shuttlecraft are generally ARMED...

Kirk saved earth. He was an admiral. They demoted him back to captain. If such a Hollywood scenario happened in real life, The military would probably "reward" that hero also. At least for PR they would.
Sure. After he stands an actual trial.

But again, Starfleet's idea of "court martial" is basically "Family meeting with a tape recorder" so that shouldn't be surprising either.
 
Demilitarized obviously has a different meaning in the 24th century. It seems like every word in the 24th century has a different meaning, except "military". :lol:
It seems to mean exactly what it sounds like considering Starfleet regularly operates in the DMZ but the Cardassian military does not.

They are just respecting customs and traditions that they obviously hate...
No, just borrowing terms and/or concepts, and very loosely at that. It's telling that all three times we see a court martial in TOS, a judge advocate is only present in ONE of them, and doesn't appear to be even neccesary even in that case (she becomes involved only because she just happens to be there). This is kind of jarring when you consider that Spock -- who is a consumate rule follower with an unhealthy obsession with protocol -- was actually court martialed TWICE for the same thing and neither time had anyone from the jag office present.

Starfleet may style itself after old-school militaries, but it's very casual about violating military traditions.
 
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Starfleet may style itself after old-school militaries, but it's very casual about violating military traditions.

So it styles itself after old-school militaries and functions like an old-school (modern US) military, yet isn't the military? :wtf:

Okay, I'm done. Call it what you want, I've decided that Starfleet is actually a Kindergarten, nothing in the show violates that idea.
 
So it styles itself after old-school militaries and functions like an old-school (modern US) military, yet isn't the military?
Yes.

It's kind of like these guys:
http://www.thebiggreen.net/media/2011/11/kendo.jpg
Who style themselves after medieval Japanese soldiers but are not, in fact, samurai.


But come now, Bill, you're starting to get silly. Starfleet is on record saying they're not a military organization, and more importantly, they do -- unlike the Cardassian military -- regularly operate in the DMZ (thanks to Prax for drawing attention to that). So it's not a military organization, it's an exploration force with an important but secondary paramilitary role.

Do you have specific evidence that this description is insufficient? Because "it vaguely resembles the U.S. military" perfectly fits the above.
 
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As a former serviceman, I side with Eddie. The Star Trek franchise does a poor job presenting military organizations in a realistic manner. Starfleet wins battles and wars because they are the good guys and thus it was written so. The Klingons and Romulans lose because they are the bad guys, except when they need to win for plot purposes. In-universe? They are all conveniently inept to the degree they are all equally matched.
 
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