Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Crazy Eddie]

I just don't see "military" as some kind of dirty word.

Did anyone in 19 pages of this thread (other than Baxten) ever suggest that it WAS?

The military is a special kind of organization. I just couldn't see myself signing on for a job with a local corporation or police force under the idea that they could deny me my freedom and even my life for certain offenses.

Then you should definitely not get a job with Triple Canopy.


Kidding aside, there's no debating that the military is a special kind of organization. It just isn't the special kind of organization Starfleet is. The military is a hammer in a universe that consists of bolts, nails, screws, hex bolts, staples, superglue, velcro, c-clamps and duct tape. A hammer is not the best tool for most of those jobs, so the Federation invented a kind of multitool that includes all of these things in a single neat little package.

You insist on calling that tool a "hammer with benefits" and then keep saying "There's nothing wrong with hammers! Why do you all hate hammers?"

 

[BillJ]

Then you should definitely not get a job with Triple Canopy.

Perhaps you'd like to share, as Google turned up nothing but an employee in Iraq that was electrocuted while taking a shower.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Perhaps you'd like to share

No, I really wouldn't.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you are again pushing the "But 'military isn't a dirty word!' angle?" I thought we had cleared up that your objection was meant to be based on facts, and not on a militarist worldview that assumes the military MUST be elevated above all other state entities as an indispensable force for the national good. What is it about the military no longer being the pinnacle of the state's manifest power that bothers you so much?

 

[BillJ]

No, I really wouldn't.

Then don't bring it up. If you can't back up a statement, then it really doesn't belong in a discussion.

 

[BillJ]

...not on a militarist worldview that assumes the military MUST be elevated above all other state entities as an indispensable force for the national good. What is it about the military no longer being the pinnacle of the state's manifest power that bothers you so much?

You're free to point out where I'm peddling a militaristic world view...

 

[Shawnster]

Have we even had a definition of military yet?

mil·i·tar·y

adjective: military
1. relating to or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces.
"both leaders condemned the buildup of military activity"
synonyms: fighting, service, army, armed, defense, martial
"military activity"
antonyms: civilian

noun
noun: military; plural noun: militaries
1. the armed forces of a country.
"as a young man he joined the military and pursued a career in the Army"
synonyms: (armed) forces, services, militia; army, navy, air force, marines
"the military took power"

or from Webster's

Definition of military

1a : of or relating to soldiers, arms, or war military discipline the country's militaryneeds
1b : of or relating to armed forces; especially : of or relating to ground or sometimes ground and air forces as opposed to naval forces military and naval affairs


2a : performed or made by armed forces military operations
2b : supported by armed force a military government


3: of or relating to the army the military academy at West Point

Just for clarity of discussion.

 

[Voth commando1]

And I almost wonder if the Y.E. alternate timeline got as bad as it did BECAUSE Starfleet set aside its techy ways and went full military. If anything, trying to beat the klingons at their own game is unlikely to be a winning strategy.


They CAN, sure. But Starfleet still has to find a way to stop them. That, too, would seem to be beyond the purview of a traditional military (normally you'd send ghost busters, exorcists or paranormalists for that; Starfleet apparently has a whole course on "diplomatic engagement with vengeful gods" at the academy).


I never said it was invulnerable. I said that Starfleet is the kind of organization that reliably wins all its battles even against people who have every conceivable tactical advantage. They never out-fight their enemies, they just out-think them. Their two most challenging foes -- the Dominion and the Borg -- were as dangerous as they were because they were actually SMARTER than Starfleet; the Borg, because their collective mind is able to concentrate the intelligence of thousands of people into a single hivemind, and the Dominion, because the Founders are smart as hell and the Vorta are tricky bastards.

It's more than likely the Feds can lose to overwhelming numbers, firepower or superior tactical ability.

We have a few exhibits-Deus Ex Machina saving the Feds from overwhelming dominion forces in DS9 the Borg timeline in parallels, Yesterday's Enterprise,in the novels the Borg just about destroy the federation.

Species 8472 and the Voth of Voyager I'd think would be able technologically to overpower the Feds as well.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's more than likely the Feds can lose to overwhelming numbers, firepower or superior tactical ability.

This is the problem for me: Starfleet makes NO attempt to maintain superior tactical capability. It's not something they're able to do, and they don't seem interested in trying. Their officers spend most of their spare time on things like poetry slams, jazz concerts, stage performances, and playing VR games on the holodeck. The first time Picard uses the holodeck, he's playing noir detective games to escape from his responsibilities (not to mention, Troi's mother). Data and Geordi use the holodeck for Sherlok Holmes adventures, Riker uses it to chat up girls in simulated bars. Even Janeway and Paris, trapped on the other side of the galaxy with all odds against them, use the holodeck mainly for escapism and leisure.

The only person who uses the holodeck for realistic combat training is Worf, and even then, mainly for exercise and entertainment and never in a realistic combat scenario.

Tactical ability is a "minor province" in the makeup of a starship captain. It isn't one of Starfleet's strengths and clearly never has been. But they're still around, after all these years, so whatever it is they DO specialize in must be pretty damn reliable.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You're free to point out where I'm peddling a militaristic world view...

"I don't see military as some kind of dirty word."

Suppose it IS a dirty word in the 24th century? Suppose, furthermore, that even the concept of HAVING a military is antithetical to Federation morals, so they chose to give the job of "self defense" to something OTHER than a standing military? There is quite a lot in Earth's fictional history that suggests this might be the case.

 

[Voth commando1]

After having a tragic Third World War federation culture seems pretty anti-war in general.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Thing is, the word "military" isn't something Starfleet uses to describe itself, and it's not something its enemies use to describe it either. The closest we get to that is "Paradise Lost" when Sisko calls Leyton's coup a "military dictatorship." Otherwise, the only other times that term is used is when Starfleet is describing specifically what it ISN'T.

This is not a feature one expects from an actual military organization. For instance, in Mass Effect:

Ashley: It’s strange. The geth are attacking, and everyone around here is still worried about ordinary business.
Garrus: You’re military, Chief Williams. They’re civilians. Civilians never believe the enemy is coming until they’re at the gates.​

And Later:

Garrus: Do you feel that your training in the human military prepared you well for your duties, Gunnery Chief?
Ashley: Trying to take down a rogue Spectre and his army of synthetics? No, they didn’t cover this in Basic.​

And in Mass Effect 3 we have this one:

Joker: Hey, Jack, now that you’re military, you gonna wear a uniform? Or are you just getting the officer’s bars tattooed on?
​

And in the Halo verse we have this one:

John117: "Our duty as soldiers is to protect humanity. Whatever the cost."
Lasky: ""ou say that like soldiers and humanity are two different things. Soldiers aren't machines. We're just people."​

How many times have we heard Starfleet officers describe what they REALLY are? They don't see themselves as "military." They're explorers, scientists, researchers, humanitarians. They fight when they HAVE to, and they usually win, but fighting isn't their purpose for exploring the galaxy.

Exploration is a duty that the military is sometimes given because it has the ships, the equipment, the training and the discipline to do the job right. It is not and has never been the primary function of the military, certainly not to the extent to which it has ALWAYS been Starfleet's role.

 

[Tenacity]

when Sisko calls Leyton's coup a "military dictatorship."

Perhaps a "exploration dictatorship" would have been a better description.

Suppose, furthermore, that even the concept of HAVING a military is antithetical to Federation morals

If so they could have sent their starships out without armarments of any kind.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And once they became part of Starfleet, their fleets were never seen again.

That's because by the time we saw Starfleet in TOS, it had been 'blended' for so long that the uniqueness of each founding member's ship designs had long since disappeared.

If we had gotten a look at the freshly minted Starfleet when the Federation was first founded, then we'd see groups of Earth, Andorian, Vulcan, Alpha Centaurian, and Tellarite ships (just like in the pics you posted) but they would all be Starfleet.

In fact, if I may shamelessly plug @Christopher's "Rise of the Federation" novels, he puts forth this idea:

When the Federation Starfleet was first created, each founding member's fleets became part of it, but responsible for different 'areas'. To wit:

- The Vulcan High Command's fleet, once it became part of Starfleet, was tasked with Research & Development.

- Andorian Imperial Guard ships became responsible for Starfleet's military defense network.

- Tellar Space Administration: operational support & supply.

- United Earth Space Probe Agency: exploration.

- Alpha Centauri Space Research Council: logistical support, research and exploration.

Now of course by the time TOS rolled around, like I said, there were no more "Vulcan ships" or "Andorian ships" or anything like that - because by then, Starfleet ships had a unified design - but the subdivisions themselves still existed. Turns out the uniform patches we always used to see in TOS weren't for each SHIP, but each of the above divisions. Examples would be:

- Vulcan: USS Intrepid (we never actually saw its crew, but if we had, their uniforms would have had the IDIC symbol)
- Andorian: USS Constellation
- Tellarite: USS Antares
- Earth: USS Enterprise
- Alpha Centauri: USS Exeter

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Perhaps a "exploration dictatorship" would have been a better description.

No, because most Federation members probably don't have a moral objection to exploration.

If so they could have sent their starships out without armarments of any kind.

Placing armaments on a starship does not make it a military vessel. Just ask the Boomers.

 

[BillJ]

If so they could have sent their starships out without armarments of any kind.

C'mon... you never know when a scientist/explorer will need to kill every living thing on a planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I actually had a sneaking suspicion that there is no General Order 24, and Kirk was just using it as an excuse to scare the people on Eminiar.

 

[BillJ]

I actually had a sneaking suspicion that there actually is no General Order 24, and Kirk was just using it as an excuse to scare the people on Eminiar.

I disagree here. Spock seemed to think it was real, watch the last conversation. He called it a big risk.

 

[BillJ]

https://www.google.com/#q=define+service&*

the armed forces

"Service" is mentioned in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", when Christopher asks what branch the Enterprise belongs to. Kirk responds "it is a combined service".

I know that some folks will come running with interpretations of why Kirk wasn't referring to the military. Why "service" in some medieval language doesn't mean what I or the dictionary thinks it means. But, I think the intent was pretty clear that Starfleet is considered some kind of military by Kirk, between the comment here and calling himself a "soldier" and mentioning "military aid" in "Errand of Mercy".

Again, everyone's mileage may vary. But Kirk's words should carry an equal amount of weight as Picard's.

 

[Ithekro]

@Baxten Is there a tl;dr version? I'm just trying to make sure I'm not reading something you've posted several times before.

Joking aside so you still not realize that starfleet might have military elements without actually being the same as today's military?

Oddly I think they are sounding like someone from the former Warsaw Pact countries with a chip on their shoulder over NATO in particular, and the US and the West in general. But that's just me reading into the posts and the earlier side tangent semi-rants.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Oddly I think they are sounding like someone from the former Warsaw Pact countries with a chip on their shoulder over NATO in particular, and the US and the West in general. But that's just me reading into the posts and the earlier side tangent semi-rants.

That's a rather bizarre reading, no kidding. Projecting much?