Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[The Old Mixer]

Isn't MI6 an intelligence agency, though? My assumption was that he had to transfer FROM the navy to intelligence service, but I could be wrong.

Whatever his current profession, the rank and uniform are legit. He is a military officer, if an inactive/retired one. He's often referred to as "Commander Bond," and his fake funeral in YOLT is a military one.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

See also the headline of the paper: "British Naval Commander Murdered".

And for the record, classic M is a retired admiral.

 

[Ithekro]

Too many instances of people calling themselves "soldier" and the use of military terminology and bad ass starships meant to blow up enemies for me to see it as anything other than that. Unless someone wants to argue that Starfleet isn't the defense arm of the Federation.

And those our own limitations. What's the term Doug Drexler likes to use? Our 21st century Ape brains just aren't up to the task, or something like that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And for the record, classic M is a retired admiral.

Which one? Bernard Lee or Robert Brown?

(Could have been both, actually, Brown's M could also be Admiral Hargreaves from The Spy Who Loved Me.)

Also, the current M (Ralph Fiennes) is a former British Army lieutenant colonel.

(If Judi Dench's M ever served in the military, we don't know about it, although I kind of doubt it because she never seemed to get along well with the military people in the films)

 

[The Old Mixer]

I always assumed that Lee and Brown were supposed to be the same character (Admiral Sir Miles Messervy), recast.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

We are presented with it as a fact we are meant to accept. How we try to understand it is up to us, but we are expected to accept the fact that Starfleet is not a military. However we try to spin it still does not change the fact. If the only way some people can manage is to redefine what a military is for the 24th century, so be it. The fact stand that Starfleet is not a military. This is what we are meant to accept. How we define that is up to us, as long as the fact remains a fact.

Okay, I'm prepared to give some ground here. I can accept the United Earth Starfleet was not a "military" - in the sense of being an organisation that is primarily focused on armed conflict - but an it's definitively an armed formal uniformed force primarily tasked with "the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties", Given their official role I'm not convinced that "paramilitary" is the correct term to describe this legal distinction but I'm tired of the circular arguements so I'm prepared to agree to disagree.

The main reason for this is the canonical existence of the small-unit centric MACOs, which in turn implies (but neither confirms or requires) the existence of a larger military/law-enforcement unit of United Earth as a parent organisation.

Likewise, I firmly believe that Starfleet maintains the capacity (mostly held in reserve) to field traditional military forces (the specialist unit from STV should be this, as should any ground forces included in Operative Retrieve, as might the ground troops that appeared in Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558), however the branch of Starfleet to which Picard belongs, let's call it the "Deep Space Exploration Corps" is primarily tasked with exploration, and assists other branches of the Fleet in scientific and technical research and diplomacy as needed, but retains Starfleet's general legal authority to conduct law enforcement or military actions as needed to protect Federation interests.

Therefore, Starfleet as a whole may be regarded as lawful combatant force (I would prefer to call it a military, but as long as we agree on "lawful combatant" I've decided that semantics aren't worth it anymore [after all, there are real world militaries that insist they "aren't militaries" for political or ideological reasons]), but Picard and others would still be correct if you add the missing word the "not a military" dialogue from Peak Performance: "Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its primary purpose is exploration.... I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain." then it becomes a lot more accurate (as diplomacy, scientific and technical research are also things that Starfleet does other than just exploration) and is more in keeping with Kirk's line about Starfleet being a "combined service". And incidently, the "mismatch" didn't really test their "combat skills" in the traditional sense anyway, as the "solution" demanded technical and scientific innovation as much as pure tactics.

Thoughts?

 

[Tenacity]

There is no such thing as "non-Starfleet Federation fleets". Starfleet is it.

The Vulcans possessed Vulcan defense vessels in Unification.

If the Vulcan have their own armed starships, that at least implies that other members can/do as well.

All Federation member worlds (and even some that aren't) contribute resources and personnel to Starfleet.

While a possibility, you can't say definitely that all the members contribute to Starfleet.

NOAA is not sent to infiltrate foreign agencies and conduct military style missions.

My understanding is that some of NOAA personnel were made military officers in case that NOAA aircraft were pressed into being used for reconnaissance, and their flight crews would be covered by the Geneva Convention.

Earth Starfleet, 2151.

Most likely Starfleet was the organization that fought in the Romulan War ten years later, as Earth's military.

I don't know of a single time in the past 30 years when the US Coast Guard engaged in a military action

During the early '90's Gulf War, Coast Guard personnel operating off Navy ships engaged in (because of their experience) searches of civilian ships suspected of transporting weapons and other contraband.

Except for the times in every series and many of the films that the writers have explicitly stated in dialogue that Starfleet is not a military organization

Every series? No.

When criminals stop shooting police and Federal authorities, our guys will stop putting all that heavy stuff on.

How many military troops have "FBI" on their protective vest.?

Montgommery Scott saying "Starfleet is not a military organization."

And JeanLuc Picard referred to the Enterprise D as a "Battleship."

Both of these statements happen in alternate universes and are equally valid.

in the sense of being an organization that is primarily focused on armed conflict

That's like saying that the US Military isn't a military because the activity they spend the most amount of time at is training in one form or another.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I tried googling Somewhere, Connecticut but Google Maps sent me to British Columbia.

I get a couple of restaurants, Somewhere in Bangkok in Southington and Somewhere in Time in Mystic...neither of which is where I'm at, but closer to home than BC!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's like saying that the US Military isn't a military because the activity they spend the most amount of time at is training in one form or another.

That's an interesting point. However, most organisations - military and otherwise - spend a great deal of time training, so I think the question is more "what do you they train for?".

Starfleet do in fact spend some time on military-style training (TOS: Corbomite Maneuver, TNG: Peak Performance and TNG: Lower Decks among others) but I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest that there are parts of military organisations that have non-military operations as their main role (US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) or United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) are the most obvious examples I can think of in the RW, that would fit into Starfleet but there are others).

 

[Prax]

Okay, I have a yes or no question. Someone mentioned Yesterday's Enterprise earlier.

In the alternate timeline depicted in the episode, is Starfleet a military.

Only yes or no responses please..

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Military log, combat date" - Picard

So I'd have to say yes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Okay, I have a yes or no question. Someone mentioned Yesterday's Enterprise earlier.

In the alternate timeline depicted in the episode, is Starfleet a military.

Only yes or no responses please..

Yes.

 

[Ithekro]

Which is one of the reasons Guinan was so disturbed by what she was experiencing. That was not what was suppose to be happening.

 

[Prax]

Which is one of the reasons Guinan was so disturbed by what she was experiencing. That was not what was suppose to be happening.

That wasn't a yes or no answer...you forfeit the rest of your answers

 

[Jedman67]

You could argue that Starfleet's primary mission is peaceful science/exploration, but that doesn't take away from it being a military when they call to action.

 

[Shawnster]

Well, if it's a headcaon way to rationalize all these points by saying that Starfleet is a paramilitary organization, I'll concede the fight.

Perhaps Starfleet was a genuinely military organization up to the events of Star Trek VI. This solves Kirk's statement about being a soldier and Marcus' statement about being pawns for the military. It also answers Cartwright and his friends reactions to peace with the Klingons. After those events at the close of the 23rd Century, however, Starfleet evolved, morphed, changed, rebranded themselves into an organization that shunned the military label. Yes, even though a rose by any other name still smells, the terminology shifted so that it was palatable to accept Starfleet as a paramilitary organization of the 24th Century. They still carried on the exact same roles they always carried on, and they are the primary organization tasked with the security and defense of the Federation. Their PR department has just done a fabulous job of enforcing the idea they are not military but they are a paramilitary organization.

I accept. I have been converted.

 

[Ithekro]

That wasn't a yes or no answer...you forfeit the rest of your answers

Sometimes "yes or no" are not enough. But I wasn't answering your question, and was commenting on the answers to it given by others.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who's to say the Federation has a military?

The people they shoot phasers and photons at mostly.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

When did Picard claim he was a soldier? Or Scott? Kirk claims he is a soldier, Sisko claims he is leading soldiers, Worf calls personnel "troops". At some point, the word games no longer work.

There's no "games" to consider. "An armed organization that is not part of the military but does a lot of what the military does" is called "paramilitary." It's not even a new concept, it's been known by one term or another ever since the concept of "professional military" was first invented.

Military is defined as the armed forces of a country.

And paramilitaries are an irregular armed force that isn't part of the official military.

I guess word games are fun, trying to piece together disparate pieces of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago to defend a couple of poor lines of dialogue that flies in the face of pretty much every other bit of the franchise.

There it is again.

What REASON do I have to disregard those lines of dialog? You haven't shown any actual evidence that "the military" is the only thing that can possibly take part in hostilities with a foreign power. That's not even true TODAY, so why would it be true in the future? I'm not interest in your ideological preferences, I'm interested in the evidence.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Too many instances of people calling themselves "soldier"

Already mentioned that LBJ, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan did on several occasions refer to police officers as "soldiers" in the "war on crime." And police departments use military tactics, military weapons, military vehicles, in some cases even military personnel for some of their more high profile operations.

Would it shock you to know the a soldiers in the war on crime aren't actually a member of a military organization?

Unless someone wants to argue that Starfleet isn't the defense arm of the Federation.

It's never been established that the Federation actually HAS a designated defense arm. Starfleet is good enough at their job that they don't really need one.

 

[BillJ]

What REASON do I have to disregard those lines of dialog? You haven't shown any actual evidence that "the military" is the only thing that can possibly take part in hostilities with a foreign power. That's not even true TODAY, so why would it be true in the future? I'm not interest in your ideological preferences, I'm interested in the evidence.

For two hundred-plus years, Starfleet has taken part of every military engagement on behalf of the Federation.

It's never been established that the Federation actually HAS a designated defense arm. Starfleet is good enough at their job that they don't really need one.

You're seriously trying to argue that the Federation doesn't have a dedicated defense arm? Defense is more than just the soldiers. It is support and R&D (those starships and weapons systems come from somewhere). And many other things. How shitty are their adversaries that they can't knock out a bunch of weekend warriors?

If Starfleet isn't the military, then Star Trek is a bigger dramatic joke than its been up to this point. No wonder they have issues dealing with mentally deficient races like the Pakleds.