Sell me on "The Clone Wars" series

[Reverend]

Wait. So, how would Ashoka be in charge at Mandalore? I mean, because of what happens at the end of S5?

Watch this and all will be revealed. Hell, watch the whole panel if you want to know about the Coruscant underworld arcs that would have happened between S5 & the final Mandalore arc. There's gangsters, an almost boyfriend, an ancient sith shrine and a close call with Sidious. Also giant wolves and boot monkeys.

He's dead, Jim. Just like Mace Windu (can't figure out why his death scene is somehow "ambiguous" for some people). I mean, seriously, I don't understand what has to happen to kill a SW character off and have them stay dead (looking at one character in particular from the PT who amazingly showed up in TCW and now in Rebels whom by all rights should be DEAD).

By rights, so should Vader after what happened on Mustafar. Sith are *very* determined to hold onto life at all costs...that or Kenobi is just really bad at killing them.

 

[Christopher]

By rights, so should Vader after what happened on Mustafar. Sith are *very* determined to hold onto life at all costs...that or Kenobi is just really bad at killing them.

One thing I wondered about the climax of ROTS was, if Obi-Wan considered Anakin his brother, why just leave him lying there in unimaginable agony from his burns, instead of at least putting him out of his misery? Although I suppose the heat was too great for Obi-Wan to get close enough to do that -- and he probably never learned how to Force-choke someone, since it's not his style. But he could've Force-lifted Anakin out of range of the lava's heat and either ended him or even gotten him to a medical facility. Instead, he just took Anakin's lightsaber and left his old friend to suffer. I know they had to make the scene consistent with what the OT established about their final battle, but I think they could've done that better.


On the subject of things I've been wondering, a while back I saw this scene in a TCW episode where Ahsoka asked Anakin whether he could hear something she heard (or vice-versa), and ever since then, I haven't been able to stop wondering, where the hell are her ears? Either they're buried under her montrals, which doesn't seem conducive to hearing, or the montrals themselves somehow work in place of ears, like, maybe there are hollow resonating cavities in there.


Oh, and you know how I rushed to finish binge-watching TCW before Netflix removed it from streaming on March 7? Turns out they didn't remove it after all. I guess they worked out a new contract.

 

[Reverend]

One thing I wondered about the climax of ROTS was, if Obi-Wan considered Anakin his brother, why just leave him lying there in unimaginable agony from his burns, instead of at least putting him out of his misery?

The way I see it he couldn't bring himself to finish him off precisely because Anakin was a brother to him. Keep in mind that not every action needs to be logical. Indeed most of the time people act emotionally and in that moment, I think Obi Wan just couldn't bring himself to do it. Besides, he was dismembered and burning alive, that's as good as dead in anyone's book. Had Sidious not turned up when he did, I don't imagine he'd have lasted much longer anyway.

Remember Vader's suit isn't for decoration. Without it he's dead in minutes which means his condition beforehand was at least as precarious. Probably more.

On the subject of things I've been wondering, a while back I saw this scene in a TCW episode where Ahsoka asked Anakin whether he could hear something she heard (or vice-versa), and ever since then, I haven't been able to stop wondering, where the hell are her ears? Either they're buried under her montrals, which doesn't seem conducive to hearing, or the montrals themselves somehow work in place of ears, like, maybe there are hollow resonating cavities in there.

I think there was something in the EU about the montrals being hollow and affording them a hearing rang up into the ultra-sonic and with it, a particularly sharp sense of spacial awareness. I don't recall it ever coming up in canon but it's the sort of thing they'd have no reason not to use, so it's probably a safe assumption.

 

[Christopher]

The way I see it he couldn't bring himself to finish him off precisely because Anakin was a brother to him. Keep in mind that not every action needs to be logical. Indeed most of the time people act emotionally and in that moment, I think Obi Wan just couldn't bring himself to do it. Besides, he was dismembered and burning alive, that's as good as dead in anyone's book.

It's not about the final result, it's about the horrific, incredible agony of the nth-degree burns Anakin was suffering. Most people would agree that the humane thing to do when someone is suffering so profoundly is to end that suffering quickly, even if euthanasia is the only way to do it. Leaving him there to continue suffering unimaginable pain for who knows how long before he finally dies is a horrifically cruel thing to do, especially to your best friend. That's why it seems out of character for Obi-Wan to do that. The only way he wouldn't have tried to put Anakin out of his misery quickly was if he were physically unable to do so.

I think there was something in the EU about the montrals being hollow and affording them a hearing rang up into the ultra-sonic and with it, a particularly sharp sense of spacial awareness. I don't recall it ever coming up in canon but it's the sort of thing they'd have no reason not to use, so it's probably a safe assumption.

Okay, I can buy that -- except most types of ear in nature have either openings to the air or flexible membranes. I'm not quite sure of the physics of how a fully enclosed air cavity with no visible interface with the outside would work as an auditory organ. At least, what a Togruta hears might be very different from what a human hears.

 

[Reverend]

That's why it seems out of character for Obi-Wan to do that. The only way he wouldn't have tried to put Anakin out of his misery quickly was if he were physically unable to do so.

Again, it's not a logical decision, it's an emotional one. He was shattered both physically an emotionally and in the moment, he simply couldn't bring himself to do it.

Okay, I can buy that -- except most types of ear in nature have either openings to the air or flexible membranes. I'm not quite sure of the physics of how a fully enclosed air cavity with no visible interface with the outside would work as an auditory organ. At least, what a Togruta hears might be very different from what a human hears.

Always remember: space fantasy, not science fiction.
With this sort of thing the aesthetic design always comes first. If an explanation can be made to make it even vaguely plausible, then that's just a happy accident.

But if one were forced to go further, there are other ways of detecting sound other than the kinds of ears with canals common in real world terrestrial vertebrates. The tympanal organs of insects come to mind, which if memory serves is basically an exposed ear drum with no lobe or canal. Turtles have flaps of skin covering inner-ear bones, And of course the likes of dolphins and porpoises have ear-holes so discrete as to be damn near invisible, yet they have one if the highest frequency sensitivities in the animal kingdom.

So perhaps the montrals aren't just hollow but full of large and smell pressurised air-sacks featuring stretched membranes supported with cartilaginous ridges embedded with tiny ear-bones and with sensitive micro-hairs on the outer epidermis and/or even hundreds of tiny pinprick sized ear canals ranged all the way along the outer and inner creases of the horn-tips.
All of which combine to give the Togruta a 360 degree multi-frequency sense of hearing. Idea for a prey species having to contend with very sneaky predators hiding in Shili's vast open plains of long grass.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not about the final result, it's about the horrific, incredible agony of the nth-degree burns Anakin was suffering. Most people would agree that the humane thing to do when someone is suffering so profoundly is to end that suffering quickly, even if euthanasia is the only way to do it. Leaving him there to continue suffering unimaginable pain for who knows how long before he finally dies is a horrifically cruel thing to do, especially to your best friend. That's why it seems out of character for Obi-Wan to do that. The only way he wouldn't have tried to put Anakin out of his misery quickly was if he were physically unable to do so.

Because...story.

No, this is one of my biggest frustrations with the end of ROTS. Despite the incredible power of Obi-Wan's line "You were my brother" leaving Anakin to burn is exactly how you say.

Okay, I can buy that -- except most types of ear in nature have either openings to the air or flexible membranes. I'm not quite sure of the physics of how a fully enclosed air cavity with no visible interface with the outside would work as an auditory organ. At least, what a Togruta hears might be very different from what a human hears.

If I recall, they are from a jungle planet, and the montrals and lekku allow for both ultrasonic detection, as well as greater reflexes and group work. I found this little fact file, which I think is from a visual dictionary. And another, that sheds more insight.

As for real world anatomy, well, that I'm not sure.

 

[The Wormhole]

Just like Mace Windu (can't figure out why his death scene is somehow "ambiguous" for some people).

Samuel L Jackson himself said he doesn't believe Mace is dead, which has led to the theory being "legitimized" among fandom.

 

[Tuskin38]

He's dead, Jim. Just like Mace Windu (can't figure out why his death scene is somehow "ambiguous" for some people). I mean, seriously, I don't understand what has to happen to kill a SW character off and have them stay dead (looking at one character in particular from the PT who amazingly showed up in TCW and now in Rebels whom by all rights should be DEAD).

Why are you quoting me, I was saying he was dead.

 

[fireproof78]

He's dead, Jim. Just like Mace Windu (can't figure out why his death scene is somehow "ambiguous" for some people). I mean, seriously, I don't understand what has to happen to kill a SW character off and have them stay dead (looking at one character in particular from the PT who amazingly showed up in TCW and now in Rebels whom by all rights should be DEAD).

Because it's an age old story telling trope, especially in film. If you don't see the body, then they can always come back.

 

[Christopher]

Because it's an age old story telling trope, especially in film. If you don't see the body, then they can always come back.

And if you do see the body, it may have been an impostor, a clone, a robot double, an alternate-reality doppelganger, a shapeshifter, a dead vagrant given post-mortem cosmetic alteration, a hallucination, a VR simulation or hologram, etc., etc.

 

[fireproof78]

And if you do see the body, it may have been an impostor, a clone, a robot double, an alternate-reality doppelganger, a shapeshifter, a dead vagrant given post-mortem cosmetic alteration, a hallucination, a VR simulation or hologram, etc., etc.

"No one is dead until they're really dead."

 

[JD]

The way I see it he couldn't bring himself to finish him off precisely because Anakin was a brother to him. Keep in mind that not every action needs to be logical. Indeed most of the time people act emotionally and in that moment, I think Obi Wan just couldn't bring himself to do it. Besides, he was dismembered and burning alive, that's as good as dead in anyone's book. Had Sidious not turned up when he did, I don't imagine he'd have lasted much longer anyway.

Remember Vader's suit isn't for decoration. Without it he's dead in minutes which means his condition beforehand was at least as precarious. Probably more.



I think there was something in the EU about the montrals being hollow and affording them a hearing rang up into the ultra-sonic and with it, a particularly sharp sense of spacial awareness. I don't recall it ever coming up in canon but it's the sort of thing they'd have no reason not to use, so it's probably a safe assumption.

The Wookieepedia article attributes the stuff about the montrals to The Clone Wars Visual Guide.

Again, it's not a logical decision, it's an emotional one. He was shattered both physically an emotionally and in the moment, he simply couldn't bring himself to do it.



Always remember: space fantasy, not science fiction.
With this sort of thing the aesthetic design always comes first. If an explanation can be made to make it even vaguely plausible, then that's just a happy accident.

But if one were forced to go further, there are other ways of detecting sound other than the kinds of ears with canals common in real world terrestrial vertebrates. The tympanal organs of insects come to mind, which if memory serves is basically an exposed ear drum with no lobe or canal. Turtles have flaps of skin covering inner-ear bones, And of course the likes of dolphins and porpoises have ear-holes so discrete as to be damn near invisible, yet they have one if the highest frequency sensitivities in the animal kingdom.

So perhaps the montrals aren't just hollow but full of large and smell pressurised air-sacks featuring stretched membranes supported with cartilaginous ridges embedded with tiny ear-bones and with sensitive micro-hairs on the outer epidermis and/or even hundreds of tiny pinprick sized ear canals ranged all the way along the outer and inner creases of the horn-tips.
All of which combine to give the Togruta a 360 degree multi-frequency sense of hearing. Idea for a prey species having to contend with very sneaky predators hiding in Shili's vast open plains of long grass.

Actually, according to the Wookieepedia article you have that backwards, they were the predators.

 

[Reverend]

Actually, according to the Wookieepedia article you have that backwards, they were the predators.

I'm pretty sure there was something about a particularly nasty predator and hunting one and using it's teeth to make a headband was a right of passage. Also IIRC the patterns on their face and headtails were said to confuse and frighten predators.

Note: just because a technological species has learned to hunt, doesn't mean they evolved as predators. We for instance, most certainly did not evolve from predators and yet we've learned to hunt and kill just about everything.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I recently watched the Blu-rays of TCW, season 1-6. I originally saw almost all of the episodes first run. I still believe that TCW supplements the PT extremely well and in many instances surpasses it.

 

[Christopher]

By the way, one thing that struck me as odd while reading the novel Ahsoka is how few nonhumans there were in it. It made me realize just how routinely The Clone Wars focused on nonhuman characters. All the clones were human, of course, and the majority of the lead characters were, but there were only a few human Jedi (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, the youngling Petro, and the Force ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn are the only ones I can think of -- apparently Quinlan Vos was a "near-human" Kiffar instead), and relatively few humans in the Senate (Padme, Palpatine, Bail, Mothma). True, the humans were disproportionately represented in central roles, but otherwise, the show did a good job creating a universe where humans were just one of many species. So it feels a bit odd to go right from that into a book where there are just a few isolated nonhumans here and there. Although I realize that's more in keeping with the Original Trilogy.

 

[Reverend]

I think half the point of having Ahsoka wind up in places (only two of them mind) that seemed to be predominantly human is to make it that much harder for her to blend in and keep her as the perpetual stranger wherever she goes.
I think the book even states that while Togruta are by no means a rarity in the wider galaxy, they're nowhere near as ubiquitous as humans or even Twi'leks. Also to be fair those two places are relative backwaters: a small farming community on a nowhere colony world and a minor trading hub. Actually, IIRC that second one isn't really described in all that much detail, it just so happens that the family she worked for was human. For all we know the general population is about as diverse as Lothal.

 

[Christopher]

I think half the point of having Ahsoka wind up in places (only two of them mind) that seemed to be predominantly human is to make it that much harder for her to blend in and keep her as the perpetual stranger wherever she goes.

Sure, but that would've worked just as well if they'd been predominantly Twi'lek or Rodian or Pantoran or something. It's just a contrast with TCW's approach, where they were constantly doing stories focusing on nonhuman populations. (Although there were some human-dominated planets too, like Mandalore and Onderon, and of course Naboo -- shared with the Gungans -- and Alderaan.) And when I read Dark Disciple just before this, I had to keep the Wookieepedia page open in my browser so I could look up the many alien species and characters (and ship classes and planets and so forth) being referenced and remind myself what they looked like. So it was a contrast moving to Ahsoka and not having to do much of that at all, because there were only a few isolated nonhumans.

By the way, where can I find a list of all the novels and comics that are part of the new canon?

I think the book even states that while Togruta are by no means a rarity in the wider galaxy, they're nowhere near as ubiquitous as humans or even Twi'leks.

Yes, it does. I actually found that a bit surprising when I read it, but on reflection, I guess we didn't see many Togruta in TCW beyond Ahsoka, Shaak-Ti, and the colonists from the slaver storyline. Whereas we saw plenty of Twi'leks all over the place. (Or at least we saw the same couple of Twi'lek-female character models over and over again. Either those two ladies were really well-traveled, or Jango Fett wasn't the only person the Kaminoans cloned in bulk... )

Also to be fair those two places are relative backwaters: a small farming community on a nowhere colony world and a minor trading hub. Actually, IIRC that second one isn't really described in all that much detail, it just so happens that the family she worked for was human. For all we know the general population is about as diverse as Lothal.

Good point.

 

[Reverend]

By the way, where can I find a list of all the novels and comics that are part of the new canon?

This should cover the novels, this the comics and these are the short stories if you can find them.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Io9 just posted their rankings of the new canon comics so far.

 

[YLu]

It's not about the final result, it's about the horrific, incredible agony of the nth-degree burns Anakin was suffering. Most people would agree that the humane thing to do when someone is suffering so profoundly is to end that suffering quickly, even if euthanasia is the only way to do it. Leaving him there to continue suffering unimaginable pain for who knows how long before he finally dies is a horrifically cruel thing to do, especially to your best friend.

Funny enough, in the canon Darth Vader comic series from a while back, Vader kind of levels this very accusation. During a near-death hallucination, he relives that scene in his head, and at the end he says something along the lines of, "If you really loved me, you would have killed me."

Dream-Kenobi then proceeds to do just that and says, "You would have preferred this?" Vader's answer is "Yes," though as is typical for his lines in that series, it's ambiguous what he means by that.