Would Something Like Section 31 Exist in Real Life?

[Voth commando1]

There are limitations and the deep state isn't monolithic in any country where it exists.

In other recent news it has been confined the CIA can fake digital "footprints" when it comes to hacking.

So it's possible the "Russian" hacking was the CIA all along.

I see no evidence S31 in Trek isn't at least covertly supported by the Fed government they have resources, tech and uniforms which show to me government support if only covertly.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Section 31 may have operatives within the Federation (who could ensure that resources and material are diverted as needed) but they're not supported by the Federation government as a whole. Section 31's mission runs counter to everything the Federation stands for, so it would be in the UFP's best interests to see that Section 31 is neutralized as quickly and efficiently as possible.

 

[Voth commando1]

^ Section 31 may have operatives within the Federation (who could ensure that resources and material are diverted as needed) but they're not supported by the Federation government as a whole. Section 31's mission runs counter to everything the Federation stands for, so it would be in the UFP's best interests to see that Section 31 is neutralized as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Counter to what the "Federation" stands for? They have uniforms! Ships! Technical resources?

There not just some vigilante group they are supported by the state.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, "vigilante" is a perfect example of what Section 31 really is.

 

[Voth commando1]

Not it isn't.

Vigilantes don't have dark uniforms, there own ships, holodecks, commando teams and foreign espionage divisions.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Vigilantes don't have dark uniforms, there own ships

 

[Voth commando1]

They don't have a private billionaire, and batman doesn't do espionage on Qu'nos.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They don't have a private billionaire, and batman doesn't do espionage on Qu'nos.

That you know of.

 

[fireproof78]

Counter to what the "Federation" stands for? They have uniforms! Ships! Technical resources?

There not just some vigilante group they are supported by the state.

Are you saying that a viglante group can't have uniforms? Also, the Federation doesn't just stand for ships and tech resources? That's a rather odd political stance.
Also, let's define our terms so we are all on the same page, shall we?

Vigilante: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate);

That you know of.

My name is....Batman.

 

[Sci]

Vigilante groups can have uniforms. Just ask the Ku Klux Klan. (Yes, I went there -- for all that it's idealized in the superhero genre, real-life vigilantism has a long history of functioning to support white supremacy, oppress innocent black folks whom white supremacists in government were unable to use the power of the state to harm, and to override state power when state power could not be used for white supremacist ends.)

Anyway, if Section 31 were supported by the Federation government, Sloan would have said so to Bashir in "Inquisition." Sloan's entire goal was to recruit Bashir, and by revealing that they were not a legitimate part of the Federation government, he shot himself in the foot. If Section 31 were a part of the Federation government rather than a conspiracy within it, he could have said as much to Bashir and therefore accomplished his objective of recruiting Bashir into Section 31.

 

[Voth commando1]

You guys really have a public school civic understanding of government don't you?

If they don't say there supported there not supported?

Everything points to unofficial government support.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You guys really have a public school civic understanding of government don't you?

Let's put it this way: If I had to make a choice between these two things...

- Trying to hit a Randy Johnson fastball

- Questioning @Sci's knowledge of government

...I think I'd choose the former.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I doubt the government complains much if the Tal CIAr topples a democratic government who acts against our oil interests.

 

[Voth commando1]

I doubt the government complains much if the Tal CIAr topples a democratic government who acts against our oil interests.

The Tal Ciar protects the state and the interests of those who rule it.

 

[Voth commando1]

Oh and yes sometimes RL vigilantism was useful-when dealing with crimes that the state was unable or unwilling to retaliate against.

Honestly if someone assaulted my father and raped my mother I'd be much more satisfied with some vigilante justice then the BS spewing machinery of a "legal" trial.

 

[Spot261]

In other recent news it has been confined the CIA can fake digital "footprints" when it comes to hacking.

So it's possible the "Russian" hacking was the CIA all along.

In other news people have reported seeing strange furry figures in Alaska that might not be bears. So it's possible they are Bigfoot who is secretly an alien controlling the world government and used Gene Roddenberry to warn us. About himself.

I see no evidence S31 in Trek isn't at least covertly supported by the Fed government they have resources, tech and uniforms which show to me government support if only covertly.

This argument is somewhat more compelling, albeit only in relative terms. I've used a version of it elsewhere in the forums by questioning exactly what level of oversight is required before a group of officials with access to resources become legitimate. Still falls flat when you really insist the uniforms alone make their actions legally official.

Counter to what the "Federation" stands for? They have uniforms! Ships! Technical resources?

This is just a ludicrous statement. Really it is.

The Federation stands for ships and uniforms?

The Tal Ciar protects the state and the interests of those who rule it.

But you fail to mention the people who live in it. Or the legality of their actions, or whether launching wars of aggression against foreign nations who don't actually repesent a threat is in any way representative of "protection"

 

[Sci]

You guys really have a public school civic understanding of government don't you?

I have a bachelor's degree in political science and I have interned at the state and federal levels, in both the Ohio State Senate, the United States Senate, and the United States House of Representatives.

What are your qualifications again?

If they don't say there supported there not supported?

Listen, I wasn't gonna pull the proper spelling dick move, but you insulted me for no particular reason, so:

"They're."

Everything points to unofficial government support.

No, everything points to an illegal conspiracy within the government, unauthorized by law.

It's very simple: If Section 31 were a legitimate part of the Federation government, and their goal was to recruit Bashir, and Bashir's reason for turning them down was that they are not a legitimate part of the Federation government -- then why would they get in the way of accomplishing their own objective by making a false claim that does not benefit them?

Section 31 is not part of the Federation government. It is a conspiracy within the Federation government. It is Hydra to Starfleet's SHIELD.

 

[Voth commando1]

No organization lasts for 200 years and does espionage, comes up with secret bioweapons, has black leather uniforms and what not isn't supported by a state.

Really some people desperately don't want S31 to actually be a part of the federation beyond its narrative point as a sin of cynicism.

I don't like it either from that standpoint but IU that's what it is a CIA/JCS/Tal Shiar hybrid with government support.

I've listened to old men with a firmer grasp of politics than Poli Sci majors. In Poli Sci you learn how things "officially" work you don't learn how they "really" work.

 

[Sci]

No organization lasts for 200 years and does espionage, comes up with secret bioweapons, has black leather uniforms and what not isn't supported by a state.

Yeah, I agree that it is not realistic that Section 31 would last two hundred years without being detected. But it's what the canon has established.

And again -- if Section 31 were part of the Federation government, why wouldn't Sloan just say so? He wanted to recruit Bashir; Bashir rejected them because they're not a legitimate part of the government. If they were, saying so would allow Sloan to achieve his objective and would cost him nothing.

I've listened to old men with a firmer grasp of politics than Poli Sci majors. In Poli Sci you learn how things "officially" work you don't learn how they "really" work.

Spoken like somebody who has never earned a political science degree.

 

[Voth commando1]

Spoken by somebody who has keenly observed politics and public opinion and thinks for himself.