How did Tain and Dukat regard one another?

[at Quark's]

Just watched In Purgatory's shadow. In it is the powerful Garak-Enabran Tain dying scene, that begins with Enabran mentioning some of his enemies, and Garak ensuring that they all had been dealt with. One name we do not hear is that of Gul Dukat.

Which brought me to wonder- is anything known about the relation between Gul Dukat and Enabran Tain? Both must have been among a select group of very powerful Cardassians during the last 25 years or so, so they probably must have had some dealings somewhen in that era. We know that Garak and Dukat don't like each other very much, but how is that with Garak's supposed father?

 

[somebuddyX]

I can't remember what his attitude was to the Obsidian Order lady in Defiant but I feel whatever his attitude was in that episode is probably close to his opinion for the whole Order and it's individuals. I think how he regarded Tain the mentor would be different if he was aware Tain was Garak's father, but I also think he'd be mindful of that idea of Cardassian devotion to the state (expressed in-universe by The Never Ending Sacrifice being the finest novel ever created, according to Garak) and how Tain sent his son into exile for the state (the state being that Central Command/Obsidian Order duality) would also affect Dukat's opinion.

 

[gantoris]

Tain was the leader of the Obsidian Order, way beyond Dukat's paygrade. I doubt they knew each other that well.

 

[at Quark's]

^I'm not so sure about the 'way beyond'. Dukat was the prefect of Bajor in the final years of the Bajoran Occupation. That must have meant he was very high up the hierarchy -I'd think being responsible for the occupation of an entire planet is no trifling matter- and I didn't have the impression there were dozens of such occupied planet in the Cardassion Union (though I also have no proof to the contrary).

So I'm inclinded to believe that Tain was higher up, yes, but not by that much. Perhaps comparable to the difference between, say, Himmler (head of secret services in Nazi germany), and Heydrich/Frank? (ruling administrators of the Czech Polish / occupied territories) ?

 

[gantoris]

I look at it this way: Tain is the head of KGB and Dukat just another General in the Red Army, maybe in charge of the troops in Latvia or something like that.

 

[gantoris]

Anyway I'm inclined to believe there were other occupied worlds such as Bajor in the Cardassian Union. What made Bajor special was it's location on the Federation border, and later of course the worm hole.

 

[kkt]

I don't see being Prefect of Bajor as a plum assignment for a Gul. The resistance was already active when he was assigned there. The costs of occupying Bajor were rising and the benefits falling. There were already a few powerful Cardassians who wanted to end the occupation and there grew to be more and more during Dukat's term. He had a slim chance of keeping Cardassia's hold on Bajor or ending the resistance, and an excellent chance of being the scapegoat for the loss of Bajor. To say nothing of being isolated from family and friends on Cardassia or the chance of being assassinated.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

At the time Tain left in Die Is Cast, Dukat was just a Gul, he wasn't anyone particularly special. He wasn't important enough to be Tain's enemy until after Tain was a prisoner.

In The Die Is Cast, when Garak says when he comes back he'll kill Dukat, Tain has heard of him but doesn't seem to particularly care one way or another if he dies.

 

[Paradise City]

Dukat would be very wary of Tain. Tain's underling had Dukat dad's executed. Dukat's dad was the guy with prestige it seemed. He was a judge of some kind wasn't he? It was mentioned inn a scene that was cut in In The Die Is Cast. So there'd be no love lost there. Tain would be the most feared guy in Cardassia -- he was a survivor in a job where you don't have a long life span.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC, the Cardassian military and the Obsidian Order are long time enemies, much like the Romulan military vs. the Tal Shiar (and many, many real world nations - secret police almost never jibe with the rank and file military). So I doubt Dukat would ever regard Tain as anything other than an adversary, even without the Tain-Garak connection.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Dukat was too afraid of Tain for Tain to ever regard him as a threat.

 

[Paradise City]

Tain was the boss-man. He was casually interrogating figures of prestige and putting them on trail and whatnot and was the only guy in charge of the OO who got to retire. So he was effective. Dukat would be a relatively high-middle ranking albeit a young(ish) guy. Probably from a family of some prestige but not of the most inner circle.

 

[Voth commando1]

I recall in Defiant the obsidian order lady left the room laughing when Sisko and Dukat discovered the obsidian order had its own navy.

That's like the Pentagon discovering the CIA has its own airforce and tank divisions. And the CIA guy leaving the room laughing.

 

[gantoris]

I recall in Defiant the obsidian order lady left the room laughing when Sisko and Dukat discovered the obsidian order had its own navy.

That's like the Pentagon discovering the CIA has its own airforce and tank divisions. And the CIA guy leaving the room laughing.

The Obsidian Order vs. the Central Command resembles more the KGB vs. the Red Army dynamic. I don't think the CIA has any generals or admirals in their pocket, nor do they make "difficult" generals or admirals disappear.

 

[Voth commando1]

Last I remember the KGB didn't have its own navy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, but they did have military style ranks.

 

[Six of Twelve]

IIRC, the Cardassian military and the Obsidian Order are long time enemies, much like the Romulan military vs. the Tal Shiar (and many, many real world nations - secret police almost never jibe with the rank and file military). So I doubt Dukat would ever regard Tain as anything other than an adversary, even without the Tain-Garak connection.

There's a difference between having a dislike for someone on general principle because of what work they do, and having a personal hatred for that person. It could be that Dukat regarded Tain in the first way, but Garak in the second way because he'd had Dukat's father killed.

 

[kkt]

Last I remember the KGB didn't have its own navy.

If they did, do you think you'd know about it?

 

[SSOASS]

A decent comparison might be the German army and the SS ... which did have its own army .. admittedly not exactly the same, but a competing military force to the traditional armed forces. It probably makes more sense as the regular military probably took the brunt of the blame for loosing Bajor. It makes sense there was some tension between Dukat/the "Prussians" and the Order