We saw a few angry moments but I didn't feel that we got enough to shed light on his full-on decent into Vader. I should rewatch ROTS to see if that helps.
Those last moments with his last few lines especially.
Sell me on "The Clone Wars" series
- Thread starter Evil Twin
- Start date
I loved the youngling arc too but it was a bit sad knowing what would become of them. If a spin-off were made, how long could it have lasted due to impending events? I suppose Lucas could have had them survive Order 66.
If they had wanted to start Rebels with an established character, Petro could've filled Kanan's place with minimal tweaks to the story. Not that I would have wanted that to happen; Kanan is much cooler.
One thing bugs me about the closing Yoda arc on TCW, which is that Yoda goes on his adventure accompanied by R2-D2 -- even making his first visit to Dagobah in R2-D2's company. Yet in Empire, R2 showed no sign of recognizing Yoda and even fought with him when Yoda was still pretending to be a goofy swamp creature. I'd been wondering if maybe R2 had known Yoda only by name and hadn't interacted with him directly, but that's clearly not the case. They knew each other well. So what gives? Was R2 putting on an act to deceive Luke for some reason? Or did he have a memory wipe in the intervening years, like C3PO did?
But was the young Caleb Dune really that much different from Petro? As I recall from the comic, his main characteristic was that he was unusually inquisitive and good at lateral thinking, asking questions and seeing perspectives that other Padawan Learners didn't. Petro's main characteristics in the Younglings arc were egotism and brashness, but with the tempering he gained in that arc and subsequent training, he could've been basically the same character as Caleb, and could've ended up assigned as Depa Billaba's Padawan.
On the other hand, Petro appeared Caucasian, and one thing I like about Rebels is that all its human leads appear to belong to other ethnicities, a nice change from the cliche.
But was the young Caleb Dune really that much different from Petro? As I recall from the comic, his main characteristic was that he was unusually inquisitive and good at lateral thinking, asking questions and seeing perspectives that other Padawan Learners didn't. Petro's main characteristics in the Younglings arc were egotism and brashness, but with the tempering he gained in that arc and subsequent training, he could've been basically the same character as Caleb, and could've ended up assigned as Depa Billaba's Padawan.
On the other hand, Petro appeared Caucasian, and one thing I like about Rebels is that all its human leads appear to belong to other ethnicities, a nice change from the cliche.
In hindsight, probably the former. Partly because part of the whole reason R2 is exceptional compared to most droids is that he's *never* had a memory wipe (at least not since Naboo) but also the idea that he and Yoda were punking Luke that whole time is just plain funnier.
I think the way Lucas justified this sort of thing is that he equated R2's personality and reactions to that of a family dog's, not a higher thinking being in his own right. In so far as his mechanic/navigator functions may be perfectly logical and machine like, but his user interface is more emotionally driven.
Which I suppose makes sense. A droid like Artoo is really only supposed to have basic user interface abilities given it's function, whereas something like Threepio is entirely built around communicating with organics.
Thanks, that's interesting -- I didn't know that about Lucas's views. But I don't know if The Clone Wars bears that out. There are a number of episodes where R2's creative thinking and problem-solving saves the day. For instance, in the episode where 3PO and R2 were trapped underground and had to solve a riddle to get out, R2 solved the riddle and 3PO took credit for it. And in the Meebur Gascon arc, there were several instances where R2 was the one who figured out a problem well before anyone else did.
Still, I guess you could probably say the same about Lassie or Flipper or the like. There actually was a TCW episode called "R2, Come Home" that was a blatant Lassie, Come Home homage, with Anakin and another Jedi trapped under debris on a collapsing ship and R2 having to fly back to Coruscant and summon help. So I guess they did treat R2 as the equivalent of a smart and loyal pet dog.
Hmm... On the other hand, if R2's behavior had been motivated more by emotion than calculation, then surely his first reaction on seeing Master Yoda in the Dagobah swamp with Luke would've been to express his happiness at seeing an old friend he'd believed to be dead. I don't think Luke could speak astromech without seeing it translated on the X-Wing screen, but he'd probably know R2's bleeps well enough to distinguish a happy reaction from a more wary one. So either R2's memory of Yoda had faded in some way, or he instantly intuited that Yoda wanted to remain anonymous and chose to play along.
Anyway, thanks for your answer. It's given me some interesting things to think about.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that problem solving falls under his mechanic programming. He can still come up with an answer to a practical or even abstract problem, just that how he expresses it is filtered through his personality.
Same with Chopper basically. Indeed, i think Filloni has specifically said that if Artoo is a faithful dog, then Chopper is a cat. Which really, tells you all you need to know about his personality quirks.
Obviously not all of this is going to hold water since the Dagobah scene wasn't written or performed with any of this in mind. Indeed, you can apply a lot of the same logic to his interactions with Obi-Wan in ANH and it holds up almost as poorly.
Hell, it's just dumb luck that he never directly crossed paths with Vader, which would have really complicated things in hindsight.
Though if I were forced to try an justify the more obvious discrepancies, I might first point out that Artoo was present when Yoda left for exile on Dagobah, so he had no reason to assume he was dead.
Indeed, one could read more into his attempt to discourage Luke from going there in the first place: "..that's OK, I think I'll keep it on manual control for now." That could be taken in a "this place is forbidden" sense or a "weird shit happened the last time I was there" sense.
As for his reaction to Yoda specifically, his initial reaction (not long after being eaten, spat out and being low on power) is shocked surprise. Then he remains silent until Yoda starts messing with Luke's rations & equipment. Try to imagine for a second a wet dog who hasn't had his dinner yet and then imagine a long absent family member turns up and starts upsetting his owner. Of course he's going to bark and growl and/or act confused. This is the kind of simple emotional spectrum I think Lucas was talking about.
Last edited:
No doubt. The prequels pretty much require a lot of people in the OT to be either lying or very forgetful. Or just dumb. "Let's hide Anakin Skywalker's son by raising him on the exact same planet where Anakin came from and keeping his last name unchanged! They'll never figure it out!"
Even aside from "Old Ben" not appearing to recognize 3PO and R2 on Tatooine, his claim that he didn't recall ever owning a droid seems to conflict with him having his own astromech, R4-P17, who piloted his fighter throughout the Clone Wars. Well, maybe that droid wasn't his personal property, just allocated for his use.
Oh, I forgot that part.
Well it did work, no?
Seriously though, there's something to be said for the logic of it. Firstly, it's probably the last place Vader would *ever* want to return to. On the off-chance he ever did for whatever reason, any disturbance in the force is likely to be written off as echos and ghosts (figuratively speaking) and promptly suppressed & ignored.
The name might be a bit of a problem if it weren't for two things: Tatooine is so remote it probably doesn't have to worry about things like ID registration, so he's not likely to be flagged up on any computer systems and we don't actually know how exceptional a name it is in a galaxy of trillions, if not quintillions of humans. Same applies for Kenobi. Both of them have family that predate them so presumable there are numerous Skywalkers and Kenobis throughout the galaxy. Some related, other not.
That aside, the locals that might care would know Cliegg Lars married a Skywalker, so the assumption/cover story is going to be close-ish to the truth: that he's the child of an errant member of the extended family. Remember Tatooine is a harsh place and people die all the time, so one would imagine it's not that unusual for orphans to be raised by aunts, uncles and grandparents. Most importantly though: nobody knew he existed, let alone went looking for him.
Now the same wouldn't be true of Ben, but that's probably why he played the crazy old hermit rather than setting himself up in a more civilised residence closer to the Lars homestead, like say Anchorhead or even got himself a job at Toche Station which would have been much more convenient.
Yeah, R4 wasn't his personal possession, she belonged to the Order just like the fighter. R2 is unusual in that regard as he was presumably gifted to Anakin by Padme as he gifted Threepio to her. Indeed in the EU, this was basically a covert exchange of wedding gifts. It's not been referenced in canon but I can't see any reason not to go with it.
It's worth remembering that for most people in the SW universe a droid is just a piece of technology, like you car or your phone. They're mass produced, so there are millions just like them and the odds of encountering more than one with the same colour markings or short form designation aren't *that* high. Similarly, most people don't get emotionally attached to their technology. So even if Ben did recognise R2, his reaction would be about the same as if someone drove up in a car an old friend used to own. Mild recognition, but that's about it.
Though it obviously wasn't the intent, the way Guinness delivered the "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid" line could be taken as a sardonic remark directed at R2, not Luke since R2 claimed to be his property when they both know that was never the case.
It sounds odd, especially in light of how the Star Wars universe unfolded, but I always took Ben's comment about "ever owning a droid" to be sarcastic, as though he knew more about R2's history that he was letting on.
Not sure why that feeling was there, and might of just been Guinness' delivery, but I never got the sense, even in my imaginings of Star Wars before Star Wars, that Ben owned R2 or 3PO.
Not sure why that feeling was there, and might of just been Guinness' delivery, but I never got the sense, even in my imaginings of Star Wars before Star Wars, that Ben owned R2 or 3PO.
Last edited:
Well, it was always clear enough to me, even back in the '70s, that R2 claiming to belong to Obi-Wan was just a ploy to reach him so he could deliver Leia's message. (Maybe the novelization said as much, or something.) He probably didn't want to let on that he belonged to Leia. After all, he played the message by accident when Luke was tinkering with him, and once the restraining bolt was removed, he shut it down and refused to play the whole thing until he reached its intended recipient.
Yes, I agree, that R2's statement was just a ploy to keep the plot moving...I mean, find Obi-Wan
I always envisioned this too. However, I also reasoned that perhaps Luke was intentionally left just visible enough that if Vader got suspicious and started looking, he'd find his son and his suspicions would be satisfied — and he wouldn't think to start looking for another child too. Basically the arrangement was to protect Leia.
If you're still interested in The Clone Wars stories, they did release several pieces of media that were taken from Season 7 scripts.I could never get into The Clone Wars. Too boring and political.
Then I saw this thread, and being on a bit of a Star Wars kick as well, though not as much as @Evil Twin, I figured I'd have another look. Then the March 7th deadline (which I only discovered two weeks ago) hastened that plan.
So, now I've seen the full run of The Clone Wars. Uncropped.
About a third of it was boring and political just as I remember but when it was good, it was really good. Better than the movies. The episodic format really allows the characters to be fleshed out and I found myself caring about the ensemble in ways I never did before. Well done. And the animation...Hands down the best I've ever seen. Looked like an enormous underating, being so close to looking like live-action.
After reading up on the show post-watch, I discovered that it was basically cancelled. What a shame. I wanted more and there were threads that were left hanging, like what plans did Sidious have for Maul? On the positive side, at least Disney left things open so that we can explore them down the line.
A few shout-outs...
- Loved Ahsoka. Great character. Years ago when the show started, I feared that she'd die during the course of the show or once Order 66 was executued but I'm glad to hear that she survived. I don't blame her for leaving either. By the way, why do older togrutas have creases in their head tails?
- Matt Lanter was a fantastic Akakin, supported by good writing. Wish they had him for the movies. Hard to believe that this Anakin turns so quickly and easily to the dark side though.
- Sidious was in top form. I was so impressed that I had to rewind and watch is again...
I did too. It reminded me of that "billiard ball planet" concept that they wanted to use on Enterprise. A planet that's completely flat and smooth. And the yellow sky remined me of the TOS planet sets they used to use.
I noticed that too. What made me notice though was that Deathwatch came off like neo-nazis.
Now onto Star Wars Rebels and an older Ahsoka batting Vader. Yeah, I had to peek.
The animatics from two unfinished four episode arcs, Crystal Crisis on Utapau and Bad Batch.
Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir is a four issue comic book miniseries which continues Darth Maul's story between TCW and Rebels. The trade is almost $200 on Amazon, but the individual issues are available digitally for only $1.99 each.
Dark Disciple is a novel that continues Assaj Ventress's story and also features fan favorite EU character Quinlan Vos, who made one canon appearance in a TCW episode.
Yeah, I just found out about all that yesterday. I might check out some of that stuff at some point. I take it that the animatics don't count for anything and are just supplementary material for the curious. I'm surprised to see that those comics and novel are canon. I thought it was just the films and The Clone Wars.
About Obi Wan and R2...
No, their plots are considered canonical, even if the visuals are rough.
The comic and novel are adaptations of unmade Clone Wars episodes. So they're material that was approved by Lucas while he was still in charge.
All the new comics and novels are considered canon under the new regime.
Christopher said:
That's not a prequel crime, it's baked into the OT. Anakin being from Tatooine is right there in Star Wars ( now called Episode IV/ANH ). Blaming this on the prequels is absurd. If anything it is an example of the prequels maintaining consistency with the OT.
In one the Vader comics, the Emperor sends Vader to Tatooine to negotiate with Jabba, he clearly does not enjoy it.
While he is there he attacks a village of Sand People, again.
And then in a far later issue it shows Sand People worshiping an effigy of him or something.
While he is there he attacks a village of Sand People, again.
And then in a far later issue it shows Sand People worshiping an effigy of him or something.
Similar threads
