Spoilers DC TV Arrow/Flash Universe Crossover Discussion

[The Old Mixer]

They wouldn't even have to go into that much. Traditionally, DC heroes stick to their own cities unless they're crossing over, and each character/city has its own tone. The only thing it would change is to retroactively make some early references or insinuations invalid. There's no reason Oliver Queen couldn't have been stranded on an island and lived five years of flashback material, or Barry Allen couldn't have gotten super-speed from a particle accelerator explosion, in a world that happened to have a godlike alien over in Metropolis.

 

[DigificWriter]

Wouldn't you be able to explain Superman on E1 by just adding a flashback on Arrow saying Superman is missing for (say) 6 months now, so they have no expectation of Superman helping them. Now he returns. Then Ollie says he can take care of his own city, thank you.

No.

On Earth-38, Superman has been active and in the public eye for 12 years by 2015 (which is when Supergirl starts) and the existence of aliens and individuals with superpowers has been openly acknowledged for at least that long, whereas on Earth-1, the concept of superpowers didn't become a 'thing' until 2014 (when Barry got his powers) and the existence of aliens didn't become a 'thing' until 2016.

There is literally no way to reconcile any of that without fundamentally rewriting the narrative and conceptual DNA of every single piece of content that we have seen since Arrow started in 2012.

 

[The Old Mixer]

on Earth-1, the concept of superpowers didn't become a 'thing' until 2014 (when Barry got his powers) and the existence of aliens didn't become a 'thing' until 2016

Both of which can simply be forgotten going forward.

There is literally no way to reconcile any of that without fundamentally rewriting the narrative and conceptual DNA of every single piece of content that we have seen since Arrow started in 2012.

Sure there is...just pretend the contradictory references never happened and move forward...same as when they retcon things in the comics.

 

[cylkoth]

Blame it on Flashpoint. It's Barry's fault! Predestination paradox! He accidentally created the new reality where there was a Superman operating a decade before The Arrow.
Problem solved!

 

[Commander Richard]

The impression I got from one of the extras on the Arrow season 1 box set was when they started out with Arrow was they were taking a leaf out of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy and make a 'relatively grounded' superhero show.

That was my understanding as well. The show was coming off the heels of TDKR in 2012 and rather than do a Smallville spinoff with their Green Arrow, or something similar, they went with the gritty and grounded approach. During Arrow's first season, there was also talk of a Wonder Woman series called 'Amazon' and the consensus among fans as well as Stephen Amell was that it sounded good and maybe there coild be some crossover but it didn't fit really with Arrow. How far we've come in such a short time, with Ollie and the gang making an escape from a spaceship. Amazon would have worked out great.

 

[Photoman15]

No.

On Earth-38, Superman has been active and in the public eye for 12 years by 2015 (which is when Supergirl starts) and the existence of aliens and individuals with superpowers has been openly acknowledged for at least that long, whereas on Earth-1, the concept of superpowers didn't become a 'thing' until 2014 (when Barry got his powers) and the existence of aliens didn't become a 'thing' until 2016.

There is literally no way to reconcile any of that without fundamentally rewriting the narrative and conceptual DNA of every single piece of content that we have seen since Arrow started in 2012.

As far as TV, I don't care about the comics continuity. And was it the concept of "superpowers" not being a "thing" until 2014, or the concept of "meta-humans"?
Most likely, the DEO has been operating clandestinely until recently, so maybe the population at large didn't know about aliens and such. Or that Superman over in Metropolis was an alien.
There are so many ways the Supers can be there on Earth 1 with Arrow and Flash.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Do you actually watch Supergirl, Arrow, and/or The Flash?

Because what you're saying just isn't in any way even remotely true with regards to what the shows themselves have established.

It's also not even remotely true based on statements from the individuals directly involved with the shows.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I have a question for the pro-universe merging people-- All of you seem to have ideas about how it could happen, but my question to you is, why do you think it should happen? What does that action bring to the table story-telling wise? How would the narrative benefit? What would be gained to make up for what was lost? I'm afraid that I just can't see the up-side, and I don't think that it's something that should just be done becuz it's kewl and for no other reason.

 

[The Old Mixer]

For the record, I'm not an advocate that it should happen at this point...but when people go on about how it couldn't possibly be done, I'm inclined to step in and opine that of course it could, it wouldn't be nearly as complicated as they try to make it out to be.

 

[N-121973]

That was my understanding as well. The show was coming off the heels of TDKR in 2012 and rather than do a Smallville spinoff with their Green Arrow, or something similar, they went with the gritty and grounded approach. How far we've come in such a short time, with Ollie and the gang making an escape from a spaceship.

Not to mention a metahuman on the team with the new Black Canary and a character with a magical costume in Ragman .

As far as TV, I don't care about the comics continuity. And was it the concept of "superpowers" not being a "thing" until 2014, or the concept of "meta-humans"?
Most likely, the DEO has been operating clandestinely until recently, so maybe the population at large didn't know about aliens and such. Or that Superman over in Metropolis was an alien.
There are so many ways the Supers can be there on Earth 1 with Arrow and Flash.

What DigificWriter said below:

^ Do you actually watch Supergirl, Arrow, and/or The Flash?

Because what you're saying just isn't in any way even remotely true with regards to what the shows themselves have established.

It's also not even remotely true based on statements from the individuals directly involved with the shows.

I have a question for the pro-universe merging people-- All of you seem to have ideas about how it could happen, but my question to you is, why do you think it should happen? What does that action bring to the table story-telling wise? How would the narrative benefit? What would be gained to make up for what was lost? I'm afraid that I just can't see the up-side, and I don't think that it's something that should just be done becuz it's kewl and for no other reason.

That's a good question .

1. The first reason has been alluded to above - when Arrow was conceived they wanted to follow Christopher Nolan's lead and have a 'grim & gritty' world without superpowered characters and fantasy elements. This changed following Arrow's success and they began to introduce some of those very elements beginning in season two in the form of Deathstroke amped up with the 'Captain America-esque' Mira Kuru and of course Barry Allen aka the Flash, and merging Earth's-1 & 38 would address that.
2. Secondly, although there have been multiple Earths in DC Comics since the 1950s (and if some physicists are to be believed, since at least the Big Bang in real life ) Earth-1 and pre-crisis Earth-2 had their own complete sets of heroes (at least A-listers like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman Green Arrow et al). True, in the case of Hawkman, The Flash and Green Lantern these differed in concept and appearance between universes, but they still existed. If as Zoom stated in the Flash season two finale, Earth-1 holds this special place in the multiverse, it seems fitting it should play host to the whole DC rosta.
3. The other argument that I can come up with is simplicity. Yes, there are various ways that can be used for 'hopping dimensions' but to my mind they add an additional element of contrivance to the story. Crossovers between The Flash, Arrow, Constantine & DC's Legends of Tomorrow just seemed naturalistic and interactions between the cast of the Arrowverse easier whilst with Supergirl or if you wanted to bring him along, Superman, there's that whole extra level of explaining how they crossed barriers and why. As I've stated in earlier posts on this thread its much easier to walk down the street, than walk down the street AND switch dimensions, especially for the cast of Arrow. Example, if the universes were merged in an episode of Legends the Waverider goes back in time to Krypton before it blew up (assuming it has interstellar capability) no big deal. Without the merger they'd have to come up with some plot contrivance to explain switching universes as well. Now I know that there are those reading this who would see that scenario as a good idea but it potentially creates a tangent that detracts from the story. Much better for Rip Hunter to go "Gideon, set course for the planet Krypton, Earth year 1948." than have to come up with some explanation as to how they found their way to Earth-38 in the first place or still less why they needed to go not only to another planet orbiting another star, but to have to go to another universe entirely as well.

My apologies if I wasn't able to express myself better with point 3, it makes a lot more sense to me in my head.

 

[Christopher]

The other argument that I can come up with is simplicity. Yes, there are various ways that can be used for 'hopping dimensions' but to my mind they add an additional element of contrivance to the story.

That's the thing, though -- as the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths in the comics showed, the very act of merging multiple continuities into one was a humongous contrivance and it added far more complications than it was intended to remove. Rewriting multiple contradictory histories into one is a hugely complicated exercise that requires taking every possible factor of the different universes into account and finding ways to reconcile them. Any contradictions that are missed can create major complications that need to be later reconciled with even more complicated contrivances and handwaves (e.g. the "pocket universe" that explained how Legion of Super Heroes could keep using Superboy post-Crisis even though Superboy was no longer a part of Superman's backstory). And trying to rewrite characters' backstories for new continuities can lead to all sorts of convolutions that end up making them messier rather than neater (cf. Power Girl).

So if your goal is to minimize contrivance, then merging the universes is a cure that's immensely worse than the disease. Sure, if the shows had been set in a single, consistent universe to begin with, that would've been simpler. But trying to rewrite two separate universes' histories into a single one after the fact is anything but simple. In the comics, it created more problems than it solved, and I'm sure it would on TV as well.

 

[DigificWriter]

If the goal is to make it so that there doesn't need to be 'dimension hopping' in order to facilitate crossovers, the simplest and least contrived solution is to destroy Earth-38 and bring ALL of its inhabitants over to Earth-1, and to have E2 Wells join his daughter on Earth-1 permanently.

However, while that's the simplest and least contrived option, it's also not necessary at this point for any reason other than because fans want it to happen (which isn't reason enough).

For the record, I'm not an advocate that it should happen at this point...but when people go on about how it couldn't possibly be done, I'm inclined to step in and opine that of course it could, it wouldn't be nearly as complicated as they try to make it out to be.

It's fine and dandy for YOU to believe that there are ways to do it that wouldn't be all that complicated, but the fact of the matter is that the individuals involved directly with the shows themselves disagree with you, as do the shows themselves, and there's just no getting around that no matter how many 'excuses' you try and concoct for how and why you could do it without complication.

 

[The Old Mixer]

There's simply nothing going on between Earth-1 and Earth-38 that would make things anywhere near as complicated as they were in the post-Crisis comics. In particular, no duplicates of major characters, and thus no need to retcon one version of a character out of existence, retcon backstories of surviving characters who were connected to that character, etc., as was the case after COIE. In fact, TPTB have conspicuously avoided creating such conflicting versions of the same characters between Earth-1 and Earth-38. You handwave away past contradictory references and move forward.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You can't just "handwave" away the fact that Superman has been in existence on Earth-38 for 11 years by the time we're first introduced, publicly, to superpowered individuals on Earth-1, or the fact that public knowledge of aliens didn't occur until 2016 on Earth-1 even though such is not the case on Earth-38 and the existence of aliens has been public knowledge for at least as long as Superman has been active.

 

[Christopher]

Thanks to The Flash, alternate dimensions are now as much an integral part of the Arrowverse as alien planets are an integral part of Star Trek. They're not a complication that needs to be gotten rid of, they're a basic part of the worldbuilding and a source of potentially limitless stories. Interdimensional breaches are no more an untenable contrivance than warp drive or Stargates.

 

[N-121973]

That's the thing, though -- as the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths in the comics showed, the very act of merging multiple continuities into one was a humongous contrivance and it added far more complications than it was intended to remove. Rewriting multiple contradictory histories into one is a hugely complicated exercise that requires taking every possible factor of the different universes into account and finding ways to reconcile them. Any contradictions that are missed can create major complications that need to be later reconciled with even more complicated contrivances and handwaves (e.g. the "pocket universe" that explained how Legion of Super Heroes could keep using Superboy post-Crisis even though Superboy was no longer a part of Superman's backstory). And trying to rewrite characters' backstories for new continuities can lead to all sorts of convolutions that end up making them messier rather than neater (cf. Power Girl).

So if your goal is to minimize contrivance, then merging the universes is a cure that's immensely worse than the disease. Sure, if the shows had been set in a single, consistent universe to begin with, that would've been simpler. But trying to rewrite two separate universes' histories into a single one after the fact is anything but simple. In the comics, it created more problems than it solved, and I'm sure it would on TV as well.

Actually with Crisis on Infinite Earths the problem which lead to your example was that there were many different editorial teams and they weren't on the same page. Characters such as Superman & Wonder Woman received 'hard' reboots whilst Batman got a soft one and others like Green Lantern and the Flash (who was replaced by Wally west) got none at all. Confusingly - given how Batman himself was treated - the Jason Todd Robin was given a hard reboot (originally he'd been a carbon copy of Dick Grayson with his parents being murdered by Killer Croc in that character's debut story arc) and turned into an unlovable character who was promptly killed off. The result of all this were messes that lead to such stories as the pocket universe storyline with the Time Trapper.
This would be different as the same people are in charge of the four (five counting Black Lightning) shows as opposed to the couple of dozen or so editorial teams that were on the various comics thirty years ago. Ergo one presumes that a merger - and in this case we're talking only two universes not all of them - could be handled better. It could be like Flashpoint where Diggle's daughter became a son and no-one was any the wiser until Barry owned up to it, first with Felicity and then with the whole team during invasion. In fact you could even have characters who are aware of what happened, maybe there would be story possibilities with that.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You keep talking about how it would be "so simple" for the showrunners of Arrow, Flash, Legends, and Supergirl to merge worlds and 'rewrite' history, but the fact of the matter is that said showrunners don't share that viewpoint and have blatantly said as much, so this is literally a case of people "speaking about things they don't understand" and contradicting the people who do (understand).

 

[tomalak301]

They can barely keep crossovers together on a limited budget let alone merging everything. One of the issues I had with Invasion was while it's 4 nights and four different shows, it didn't really feel cohesive. Supergirl was brought in but wasn't used much, even to the point of Oliver telling her to stay on the sidelines. Each show had to spotlight its own characters, thus kind of shafting the plot as a whole, and you can only do so much in a 42 minute per episode time frame. If they did manage to merge everything, that would be such a daunting commitment, to both the writers and the viewers, I think.

 

[Christopher]

Actually with Crisis on Infinite Earths the problem which lead to your example was that there were many different editorial teams and they weren't on the same page...
This would be different as the same people are in charge of the four (five counting Black Lightning) shows as opposed to the couple of dozen or so editorial teams that were on the various comics thirty years ago.

That's not true. Each show has its own separate writing staff, all working under Berlanti and Schechter as the heads of the production company. Supergirl is run by Ali Adler & Andrew Kreisberg, The Flash by Aaron & Todd Helbing, Legends by Phil Klemmer, and Arrow by Wendy Mericle & Marc Guggenheim, and each set of showrunners has a different slate of staff writer-producers that they coordinate. Essentially the writing staffs are the "editorial teams" and Berlanti and Schechter are like the "executive editors" they all report to. They try to coordinate the best they can, and they actually do a surprisingly good job of it given how complicated the task is, but it's unfair and dismissive of their hard work to assume they're all a single staff and that coordinating the shows is easy. They just make it look easy, because they've spent years learning how to produce television and because they're really dedicated to tackling what's really a monumental challenge. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make that challenge even harder with unnecessary complications.

 

[The Old Mixer]

@DigificWriter , I was writing up a response to your last post to me, but I've already put in my two cents; am not invested enough in this subject one way or the other to keep going around in circles about it; and take exception to the needlessly personal tone of your posts. I'm done here.