A Thought About Ceti Alpha VI

[Dukhat]

I would think they would suppose that if Ceti Alpha V were at least near enough the proper orbit for Ceti Alpha VI then they would suppose they were at VI and that the earlier records were mistaken. After all, mistakes happen, in real life, yes, but the whole movie is full of people making mistakes.

If you're on the scene and the planet is (say) five million miles away from where the records say it should be --- well, what's more plausible? That you're at the wrong planet or that your records of this supremely ignored star system have a glitch nobody's cared enough to correct? (Tricky problem in the Star Trek universe, admittedly, given how much worlds can get tossed around and blown up there.)

And that brings us to another "mistake": Why did Starfleet and the Federation basically ignore this planet that contained 70-odd genetically engineered, very resourceful supermen? Did they think that Khan and his followers wouldn't be able to escape just because they were marooned? Sure, the Reliant didn't stop by until 15 years later, but it's not like the planet was restricted. Any ship could have landed there or beamed people down at any time.

 

[DonIago]

The logical explanation is because they didn't know about it.

 

[Timo]

The fact of the matter is, Khan knew the planet exploded. Debating about how he knew is just semantics. He knew, period, and there was no reason why he would have made something like that up.

Quite to the contrary, since he most probably did not have the means to know anything like that, and given his know-all personality, and noting the problems physically inherent in the scenario, and noting that nobody else thought the planet would have exploded, it's a preferred scenario that the planet in fact did not explode.

Khan's home was hit by the mother of all simooms all of a sudden. If this was preceded by some sort of a celestial light show, Khan would be eager to jump to conclusions. Whether he did is something worth pondering.

The Reliant's entire mission was to scan for suitable planets for the Genesis experiment.

Exactly. So she wouldn't waste time scanning unsuitable planets. If the suitability of CA V (or what they thought was CA VI) was in doubt, then the criteria are extremely exacting, and only a single planet in every sixth system or so warrants any study.

I don't care about "The Doomsday Machine" because that's irrelevant to what we're talking about.

It's our primary source to how Starfleet deals with recently exploded planets, so it appears extremely relevant. Especially since Decker and Kirk both began scanning for exploded planets after stumbling on the first few, and we learned that they could not do this without the special effort of flying into each and every star system and doing the special scans from the inside.

The Reliant was in the Ceti Alpha system. As far as I know, they weren't just looking at a specific planet in that system; they were looking for any planet that was a suitable candidate, and the planet they thought was Ceti Alpha 6 seemed to fit the bill. For all we know they also scanned Ceti Alphas 1 to 4 as well before that.

This is extremely unlikely since we know they searched for "lifeless" but the wasteland of CA V failed to qualify. Most of the universe is lifeless, even in Trek; they were going for Goldilocks, and she doesn't live in Ursa Majoris or Ursa Minoris but exclusively in between.

Now to get back to the original question: The only way I can think of as to why the Reliant's crew thought Ceti Alpha 5 was Ceti Alpha 6 was if both planets were in the exact same orbit around the Ceti Alpha star. Now I'm no scientist, but I'd guess that the odds of that are pretty slim.

But as said, orbits are irrelevant to starships, so they shouldn't hold high priority for starship crews, either - especially since we know their real priorities, of meeting the criteria set down by the Marcuses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[somebuddyX]

I think Nick Meyer just got the planets mixed up. If it was O O O O O O and then O O O X O O happened it would change the order as compared to O O O O O O to O O O O O X right?

 

[Timo]

The thing to notice here is that planets are not aligned in a neat row. You won't notice one missing from "in between" unless you conduct a systemwide survey and separately establish the orbits of each heavenly body you happen to spot. That's a lot of telescoping and number-crunching.

I think Meyer made the right call in having one of the outer worlds blow. That's more interesting than the above model, and better highlights why the above model wouldn't really work.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

The logical explanation is because they didn't know about it.

Which isn't logical, because Kirk had to account for a missing officer (Marla McGivers) and the fact that his ship was taken over.

One of the things I loved about Star Trek Into Darkness was the fact they showed the captain's log isn't the only record that Starfleet pays attention to. But, there's also the fact that Kirk records all the events with Khan in his log...

Captain's Log. Stardate 3143.3. Control of the Enterprise has been regained. I wish my next decisions were no more difficult. Khan and his people. What a waste to put them in a reorientation centre. And what do I do about McGivers?

 

[The Grim Ghost]

This has never been the sort of thing to keep me up at night. But I think the simplest solution would just be adding a couple of lines:

"Sir, it seems that we are missing a planet"
"Missing a planet? Nonsense, you know those old star charts aren't always reliable. Continue survey"

There, fixed!

 

[Timo]

Which isn't logical, because Kirk had to account for a missing officer (Marla McGivers) and the fact that his ship was taken over.

But that happens in every fifth episode anyway. How could Starfleet tell one incident from another and decide not to accept Generic Falsified Log #227 in this specific case? Kirk could just say "Dionysos ate my A&A officer and made some of my crew hallucinate about tall dark strangers" and no eyebrows should be raised, certainly not by the same people who accepted "Apollo impregnated my A&A officer and caused some structural fatigue to my ship by gripping real hard".

Kirk has expertise in spinning cover stories: in "Metamorphosis", his shuttle is presumed lost, but the incident must be downplayed lest Cochrane's survival be revealed. So Kirk supposedly dictated logs that countermanded whatever Scotty dictated, at the very least declaring the engineer in error on a detail or two, although possibly erasing the incident of the delayed shuttle from the records altogether. Either approach would work in the case of "Space Seed", too.

One of the things I loved about Star Trek Into Darkness was the fact they showed the captain's log isn't the only record that Starfleet pays attention to. But, there's also the fact that Kirk records all the events with Khan in his log...

Yet we know that logs can be altered after dictated. Heck, in "Court Martial", three people are capable of the act, and only Spock and Finney sound like they would have the computer expertise to pull it off against all the safeguards - Kirk must be listed because he has the authority to do the edits using the existing edit tools.

Assuming the dictated logs have evidence value is folly in any case, as they clearly are mostly dictated long after the fact (even if replayed on top of visuals of the fact) and reflect the personal interpretation of the skipper only. Only things like a telemetry track on the ship's actual movement would really need to be accounted for, and we don't know if Starfleet ever checks those.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Quite to the contrary, since he most probably did not have the means to know anything like that, and given his know-all personality, and noting the problems physically inherent in the scenario, and noting that nobody else thought the planet would have exploded, it's a preferred scenario that the planet in fact did not explode.

None of that matters. In the context of the film, Khan knew the planet exploded. Chekov and Terrell do not question or contradict this, and the viewing audience doesn't bat an eye about it either since it doesn't affect the plot of the movie. Feel free to think Khan made it up all you want, but since there's no reason for him to lie about it, it's a moot point.

So she wouldn't waste time scanning unsuitable planets. If the suitability of CA V (or what they thought was CA VI) was in doubt, then the criteria are extremely exacting, and only a single planet in every sixth system or so warrants any study.

You don't know what kind of planets the Ceti Alpha system contained. All we know is that they had to be "completely lifeless." For all we know, Ceti Alphas 1 through 6 were all potentially suitable planets. Only a scan of all the planets would confirm whether they were or not. We just happened to come in at the point where they were scanning Ceti Alpha 6(5).

It's our primary source to how Starfleet deals with recently exploded planets, so it appears extremely relevant.

1. The Reliant wasn't scanning for recently exploded planets.

2. What happened in a TOS episode that took place 15 years before TWOK is hardly a "primary source" of information.

But as said, orbits are irrelevant to starships...

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

 

[Timo]

None of that matters. In the context of the film, Khan knew the planet exploded. Chekov and Terrell do not question or contradict this, and the viewing audience doesn't bat an eye about it either since it doesn't affect the plot of the movie. Feel free to think Khan made it up all you want, but since there's no reason for him to lie about it, it's a moot point.

And exactly since it's moot, we have zero reason to believe Khan. The default position would be that something possible happened, while the impossible should only be brought up when there's a pressing reason to do so. Such as some sort of a confirmation that Khan is right.

(The other characters would have no reason to contradict a madman, either. He lives in his own little bubble where e.g. Kirk is to be blamed for stuff, and we see what happens when Chekov tries to contradict him on that.)

You don't know what kind of planets the Ceti Alpha system contained. All we know is that they had to be "completely lifeless." For all we know, Ceti Alphas 1 through 6 were all potentially suitable planets. Only a scan of all the planets would confirm whether they were or not. We just happened to come in at the point where they were scanning Ceti Alpha 6(5).

All planets in the Sol system are lifeless, save for Earth. Only a madman would head for Earth to look for a lifeless world. Yet here our sidekicks are, scanning a planet with free oxygen in the atmosphere.

Unless Ceti Alpha and Regula are next-door neighbors, the Reliant would have no reason to do a "search" for a generic lifeless world that would lead them to CA. She could simply fly to the neighboring system, which must have one of those. Flying to a distance of three travel days would be an idiotic complication to the Phase III experiment, then. But if planets that have free oxygen and nevertheless have to be lifeless are the only suitable ones, then the sidekicks have every excuse for a prolonged and exhausting search, since the combination is so unlikely (indeed, it probably hinges on Trek Milky Way being so full of life that there are failed ancient terraforming experiments lying about). Certainly a system containing two or more of the sort would be an unlikely find.

1. The Reliant wasn't scanning for recently exploded planets.

And indeed we have no reason to think she was scanning for planets of any sort. From what we observe, the prodecure would appear to be "enter standard orbit over a planet on the list of candidates, then scan for life, Y-> move to next system and repeat, N-> inform the Marcuses and return to fetch the Genesis device".

2. What happened in a TOS episode that took place 15 years before TWOK is hardly a "primary source" of information.

In what sense? Starfleet appears largely unchanged between spinoffs in the 22nd and 24th centuries. Why worry about 15 years?

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Orbits around target planets involve the acceleration of one gee, give or take. That's "idling" for a starship's engines. Orbits of planets around stars involve speeds of a few dozen kilometers per second. That's less than "fine tuning" for a starship approaching on a 23-min-14-sec-from-Terran-system-limits-to-Earth-on-impulse beeline.

Really, associating the way Starfleet flies in space with the way NASA flies in space is even more misleading than associating the way the Concorde gets from Paris to New York with the way thistledown does.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

And exactly since it's moot, we have zero reason to believe Khan.

So I'll repeat myself. Feel free to think Khan lied about knowing the planet exploded if it helps you sleep better at night, even though he had no reason at all to make it up. It makes no difference to me, any other viewing audience, or even the characters in the film, since it matters not one bit to the movie's plot.

All planets in the Sol system are lifeless, save for Earth. Only a madman would head for Earth to look for a lifeless world. Yet here our sidekicks are, scanning a planet with free oxygen in the atmosphere.

Not sure why a comparison between the Sol system and a completely fictional solar system of which we know nothing about other than that a planet exploded and affected the orbit of another planet has to do with anything. And so what if the planet has oxygen? If it's got oxygen but is still a lifeless planet, then it's a potential subject for the Genesis experiment.

And indeed we have no reason to think she was scanning for planets of any sort.

Other than the fact that the ship's mission was to find lifeless planets, which I already stated before.

In what sense? Starfleet appears largely unchanged between spinoffs in the 22nd and 24th centuries. Why worry about 15 years?

Because, as I said before, the events in "The Doomsday Machine" have nothing to do with the events of TWOK.

Orbits around target planets involve the acceleration of one gee, give or take. That's "idling" for a starship's engines. Orbits of planets around stars involve speeds of a few dozen kilometers per second. That's less than "fine tuning" for a starship approaching on a 23-min-14-sec-from-Terran-system-limits-to-Earth-on-impulse beeline.

None of that means anything to me. I was hypothesizing about how Terrell could have mistook Ceti Alpha 6 for Ceti Alpha 5.

 

[FormerLurker]

Terrell and the Reliant could have easily mistook Ceti Alpha 5 for Ceti Alpha 6.

All it would take is a query to the library computer to name systems with worlds that may be what the Genesis team is looking for, and to go to those systems, find the planet in question in each one (looking for nothing more than a planet that meets the spec, with no consideration for its placement in the system), and scan it for whether it meets the conditions the Genesis project demands.

They never need to count the order of planets, or whether they're in the position a hundred year old drone flyby says they should be in, or anything like that. Only that they meet certain prior conditions before a detailed scan from up close.

 

[Dukhat]

Terrell and the Reliant could have easily mistook Ceti Alpha 5 for Ceti Alpha 6.

All it would take is a query to the library computer to name systems with worlds that may be what the Genesis team is looking for, and to go to those systems, find the planet in question in each one (looking for nothing more than a planet that meets the spec, with no consideration for its placement in the system), and scan it for whether it meets the conditions the Genesis project demands.

They never need to count the order of planets, or whether they're in the position a hundred year old drone flyby says they should be in, or anything like that. Only that they meet certain prior conditions before a detailed scan from up close.

Sure, why not. I don't particularly care why they mistook one planet for another. I was just hypothesizing how it might have happened, since it seems to have been such a sticking point for fans to bitch about on the internet

 

[Ithekro]

Ceti Alpha system can't be that far away from the Sol System. Not only because Kirk manages to be nearby when Enterprise is on a training cruise from Earth, but also because in the alternate 22nd century timeline where the Xindi blow up Earth, the survivors had to made it to the Ceti Alpha system with freighters and the like that can't go faster than Warp Two.

 

[Dukhat]

Ceti Alpha system can't be that far away from the Sol System. Not only because Kirk manages to be nearby when Enterprise is on a training cruise from Earth, but also because in the alternate 22nd century timeline where the Xindi blow up Earth, the survivors had to made it to the Ceti Alpha system with freighters and the like that can't go faster than Warp Two.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what ENT has to say about interstellar distances. Isn't this is the same show that said the Klingon homeworld was only four days travel away from Earth at warp 4?

 

[Ronald Held]

Still unbelievable. Mapping and charting is s Starfleet task, even if low level. If for no other reason you would map the entire system out in order to see if the Genesis effect extended past the target body. The minute there was a discrepancy someone should have been notified and that information passed up to the CO or XO.

 

[Timo]

So I'll repeat myself. Feel free to think Khan lied about knowing the planet exploded if it helps you sleep better at night, even though he had no reason at all to make it up. It makes no difference to me, any other viewing audience, or even the characters in the film, since it matters not one bit to the movie's plot.

You aren't repeating yourself, you are contradicting yourself - because you originally seemed quite upset at the claim that Khan might have been mistaken, and unwilling to accept that one. No matter, at least we agree on it not affecting anything else much.

Not sure why a comparison between the Sol system and a completely fictional solar system of which we know nothing about other than that a planet exploded and affected the orbit of another planet has to do with anything.

Our universe works in a certain way. We can already safely say that dead planets are in an overwhelming majority even before actually getting a good look at any outside the Sol system. Dead planets with free oxygen on them probably don't exist at all. Is the Star Trek universe vastly different? I suggested one way in which it might be: since there's lots of humanoid intellect there, there's probably lots of terraforming, too, and sometimes this would produce the rare combination. But we have no reason to think that star systems with all the planets terraformed are common in Trek (although some may exist), and it would be odd for Terrell to stumble onto such a system - and odder still for him to stumble onto a system where "normal" dead planets are absent and every world warrants a scan.

And so what if the planet has oxygen? If it's got oxygen but is still a lifeless planet, then it's a potential subject for the Genesis experiment.

Indeed. So Terrell only scans that one planet, out of a hundred or a thousand.

Other than the fact that the ship's mission was to find lifeless planets, which I already stated before.

But that doesn't require scanning, since planets by default are lifeless.

Because, as I said before, the events in "The Doomsday Machine" have nothing to do with the events of TWOK.

Why should you repeat such a false statement? The same (apparently) happened in both adventures: entire planets (reputedly) violently ceased to exist. The same Starfleet response was observed: only an intimate visit by a starship made Starfleet aware of anything having happened.

Ceti Alpha system can't be that far away from the Sol System. Not only because Kirk manages to be nearby when Enterprise is on a training cruise from Earth, but also because in the alternate 22nd century timeline where the Xindi blow up Earth, the survivors had to made it to the Ceti Alpha system with freighters and the like that can't go faster than Warp Two.

But warp two is a perfectly viable interstellar speed, often maintained by Kirk, too...

So, what is "close"? Sulu probably went all out when Spock told him to indulge himself, because that'd be the way Kirk would best enjoy his birthday cruise. Three days or so at best possible speed might take our heroes pretty far from Earth. OTOH, Kirk in "Space Seed probably didn't fly all that far from the location where he found Khan when he wanted to offload Khan: he would want to get rid of the superman quickly, and wouldn't want Starfleet to wonder too much about delays or detours. So we could peg Ceti Alpha by making assumptions about the speed of Khan's ship; something in the 100-150 ly ballpark might best fit that evidence.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what ENT has to say about interstellar distances. Isn't this is the same show that said the Klingon homeworld was only four days travel away from Earth at warp 4?

And what's wrong with that? We don't know how fast warp 4 is (except when you fly a figure U to Neptune, but warp's always fantastically slow insystem), save for the fact that it takes our heroes from said A to said B in four days, and that's fine.

Still unbelievable. Mapping and charting is s Starfleet task, even if low level.

We see how Starfleet does such "background" mapping once, in "Corbomite Maneuver". It's a seemingly primitive and labor-intensive task, never seen in connection of our heroes entering a star system in order to conduct a mission there.

If for no other reason you would map the entire system out in order to see if the Genesis effect extended past the target body.

Good point. But this wouldn't involve checking out for "discrepancies" - only the true status of the system as it stands would be relevant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

This is why I like the idea that the planet just exploded on its own. A very deep core of uranium--it allowed the world to be a violent place to live--that's all they knew. The deep core scambled instruments--no way of knowing just when it would blow unless a science ship was left behind.

No black hole to fool with.

 

[Dukhat]

You aren't repeating yourself, you are contradicting yourself - because you originally seemed quite upset at the claim that Khan might have been mistaken, and unwilling to accept that one.

Then I'm afraid you're operating under a false assumption. Saying that I'm "quite upset" implies that I have some personal issue with the discussion, which I do not. Khan had no reason to make up some story about a planet exploding. That's my stance on that subject, and always has been. It's not my problem whether you agree with me or not.

Our universe works in a certain way. We can already safely say that dead planets are in an overwhelming majority even before actually getting a good look at any outside the Sol system. Dead planets with free oxygen on them probably don't exist at all. Is the Star Trek universe vastly different? I suggested one way in which it might be: since there's lots of humanoid intellect there, there's probably lots of terraforming, too, and sometimes this would produce the rare combination. But we have no reason to think that star systems with all the planets terraformed are common in Trek (although some may exist), and it would be odd for Terrell to stumble onto such a system - and odder still for him to stumble onto a system where "normal" dead planets are absent and every world warrants a scan.

This is a fictional show. In the Star Trek universe, we can hear phasers zapping and ships exploding in space even though physics dictates that sound doesn't travel through a vacuum. In that regard, there are no absolutes when it comes to scientific accuracy in Star Trek.

Indeed. So Terrell only scans that one planet, out of a hundred or a thousand.

We don't know what they were doing. We only saw what happened at Ceti Alpha 5.

But that doesn't require scanning, since planets by default are lifeless

A nonsequitor. They were scanning for life signs, not living planets.

The same (apparently) happened in both adventures: entire planets (reputedly) violently ceased to exist. The same Starfleet response was observed: only an intimate visit by a starship made Starfleet aware of anything having happened.

Let me be clearer: Ceti Alpha 6 exploded six months after Khan got there. The Reliant didn't come until 14.5 years later. By that time, there would have been nothing left of Ceti Alpha 6 to even register. That's completely different from what happened in "The Doomsday Machine."

And what's wrong with that? We don't know how fast warp 4 is (except when you fly a figure U to Neptune, but warp's always fantastically slow insystem), save for the fact that it takes our heroes from said A to said B in four days, and that's fine.

We know how fast warp 4 is because it took the NX-01 four days to get to Qo'nos at that speed. Which means that based on the Klingons' level of technology at the time, they should have reached and conquered Earth a long time ago if they were that close.

 

[Nebusj]

Still unbelievable. Mapping and charting is s Starfleet task, even if low level. If for no other reason you would map the entire system out in order to see if the Genesis effect extended past the target body. The minute there was a discrepancy someone should have been notified and that information passed up to the CO or XO.

And they would likely have gone through something like this:

- Is there an uninhabitable planet in approximately the right place?
- Is it a theoretical possibility that a record of an uninhabitable planet in a boring star system in a little-visited region of space is somehow mistaken?
- Well then, let's carry on.