Gibraltar is British. Moreover, it was Michael Piller's metaphor for explaining the situation at the wormwhole.
Did Sisko's Actions Provoke The Dominion War?
- Thread starter M.A.C.O.
- Start date
I know, but the analogy amuses me
Perhaps, but if you have access to unknown space basically right in your lap, I don't blame the Federation for wanting to see what's on the other side. They weren't the only ones making regular trips there in the beginning anyway.
The Dominion always had plans to expand their dominance to the Federation. Just if Sisko had not shown resistance, they would have done it slower and probably less bloody.
No, exploring is not an inherently aggressive act by any stretch of the imagination. If the Dominion had said "Hi, this is our territory, if you keep coming into it we'll attack you" the Federation would have backed off. At the time the Federation was trying to reach out to the Dominion and establish diplomatic relationships and the Dominion's first contact was to murder and threaten them.
No, exploring is not an inherently aggressive act by any stretch of the imagination. If the Dominion had said "Hi, this is our territory, if you keep coming into it we'll attack you" the Federation would have backed off. At the time the Federation was trying to reach out to the Dominion and establish diplomatic relationships and the Dominion's first contact was to murder and threaten them.
Also, if it's pseudo-colonialism, then it's not real colonialism. I think you were so intent on packing your sentence with negative words you canceled yourself out.
If you think exploring the unknown is bad, I'm not sure why you like Trek, because that's literally the mission statement of the entire franchise. For it to be colonialism you have to impose your will on other cultures. The Colonialist Federation doesn't peacefully leave the planet at the end of First Contact, they say nope, we're staying, and you have to do whatever we say. Also the backyard became paradise because of an open exchange of cultures with the hundreds and thousands of planets in and surrounding the Federation. By 'close your borders' does that mean they should stop letting people from neutral planets even enter the space? If that's what you think, that's fine, but you've picked the wrong franchise to be a fan of.
If you think exploring the unknown is bad, I'm not sure why you like Trek, because that's literally the mission statement of the entire franchise. For it to be colonialism you have to impose your will on other cultures. The Colonialist Federation doesn't peacefully leave the planet at the end of First Contact, they say nope, we're staying, and you have to do whatever we say. Also the backyard became paradise because of an open exchange of cultures with the hundreds and thousands of planets in and surrounding the Federation. By 'close your borders' does that mean they should stop letting people from neutral planets even enter the space? If that's what you think, that's fine, but you've picked the wrong franchise to be a fan of.
It's popular in today's world to engage in "anti-colonial" deconstruction. Meaning colonialism is bad bad bad and we have to menacingly critique elements of society to reveal how bad it is and stuff.
God I hate postmodernists.
The federation is only colonial if your a bonfire throwing deconstructionist academic who wants to make westerners feel bad.
God I hate postmodernists.
The federation is only colonial if your a bonfire throwing deconstructionist academic who wants to make westerners feel bad.
oops I forgot colonialism is a good thing, taking over property/land/nation states that does not belong to you for God and country...great idea!
As soon as Starfleet ordered/agreed with Sisko to stop the flow of Dominion forces into the AQ war was inevitable. At that point Starfleet obviously decided that even the extremely high risk of going to war at that point mining the wormhole was the best course of action. So Sisko did provoke the beginning of the conflict, but he wasn't some sort of grand arbiter that some people seem to make him out to be in this case.
As for Sisko's meeting with Weyoun, Weyoun was blunt with him and Sisko was blunt in return saying that they minefield was going up. Could he have played it differently? Maybe he could have played the "chain of command" card to buy time or lied to Weyoun and say he would bring it down. Not sure how much, if any time, something like that would have bought.
As for Sisko's meeting with Weyoun, Weyoun was blunt with him and Sisko was blunt in return saying that they minefield was going up. Could he have played it differently? Maybe he could have played the "chain of command" card to buy time or lied to Weyoun and say he would bring it down. Not sure how much, if any time, something like that would have bought.
From wikipedia: Colonialism is the establishment of a colony in one territory by a political power from another territory, and the subsequent maintenance, expansion, and exploitation of that colony. The term is also used to describe a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and often between the colonists and the indigenous peoples.
Not exactly an unfair description of the federation's MO.
From Merriam Webster regarding deconstructionism:
1: a philosophical or critical method which asserts that meanings, metaphysical constructs, and hierarchical oppositions (as between key terms in a philosophical or literary work) are always rendered unstable by their dependence on ultimately arbitrary signifiers; also : an instance of the use of this method <a deconstruction of the nature–culture opposition in Rousseau's work>
2: the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
Definition 1 is hard to apply here, definition 2 pretty much sums up exactly what a historian is supposed to do, examine an overview of available data and evidence objectively - as opposed to simply repeating the dogma of a given period slavishly (which is more akin to folklore). Historians are not there to promote the image of their own country or blindly accept what people believed at the time. They are there to distil some balanced measure of truth from what is available.
The problem a lot of people have with this is that it often sits uncomfortably with our self or national perceptions. For example I naturally want the UK to be inherently the arbiters of sophisticated decency, with the British Empire modernising and progressing the world as we expanded in a benign way. There genuinely are people who still convince themselves this is the case, typically highly patriotic people funnily enough.
The more realistic truth that we were simply another in a series of empires following a pattern which continues to this day, waxing and waning as time progresses and inevitably putting our own interests (or those of key individuals within our society) above others, often in quite brutal ways. Am I offended by this or do I feel any sense of guilt? Less than I would experience at simply accepting a less honest, sanitised and nationalistic version of history.
Now i context I'll grant the federation is portrayed as being less violent and oppressive than it's real world counterparts, but far from perfect in any respect.They often make mistakes and are far from beyond being corrupt, territorial or expansionist.
Open warfare did begin with Sisko, but I think it was justified because the Dominion had made non aggression pacts with the Romulans, Tholians, and Miradorn. Sisko said in "CALL TO ARMS", "We're losing the peace. Which means a war may be our only hope." I think he was dead on. If enough Alpha Quadrant racrs follow suit with those pacts, the Dominion woukd have had an easier time defeating the Alpha Quadrant. Being surrounded by bystanders can be just as bad, if not worse, than being surrounded by the enemy.
At least this way, with mining the wormhole, Starfleet was able to control when the war begins. It probably IS the first time the Federation actually started a war. On purpose, anyway.
One thing always puzzled me... with Dominion technology as advanced as it is, and the wormhole having that selenium trail reaching from Alpha to Gamma ends, I wonder if the Gamma side was ever able to send any communications or advice or tech updates to the Alpha side. I think this is implied in season 7 simply because Weyoun knew that the Great Link and ALL the Founders were dying.
The first thing I would have done once retaking DS9 is to put some kind of subspace signal blocking all around the wormhole itself.
At least this way, with mining the wormhole, Starfleet was able to control when the war begins. It probably IS the first time the Federation actually started a war. On purpose, anyway.
One thing always puzzled me... with Dominion technology as advanced as it is, and the wormhole having that selenium trail reaching from Alpha to Gamma ends, I wonder if the Gamma side was ever able to send any communications or advice or tech updates to the Alpha side. I think this is implied in season 7 simply because Weyoun knew that the Great Link and ALL the Founders were dying.
The first thing I would have done once retaking DS9 is to put some kind of subspace signal blocking all around the wormhole itself.
I will say, though, that the first shots fired were by the Dominion when they just destroyed those Alpha Quadrant ships and the New Bajor colony. To me, that already sends the message that you don't really have an open mind or want to negotiate.
They had changlings on the Bajoran side of the wormhole, running the dominion war, infiltrating governments. I highly doubt the great link needed to second guess its own front line thinkers.
Secondly, its simple clearing mines, send a bunch of fire ships through first, breaking the mines at several points, then bumrush the hole they make before the mines can close the gap. Duh. It all can't just instantly pop right back in place, nor can those mines destroy every alloy known. Something is gonna breach it, either a solid, or learning his quickly these mines can regenerate.
I'm serious, go on a spacewalk, fling a bag of ripped gravel along it's length. Set nukes off along that front. That's not a impossible defence to breech.
Secondly, its simple clearing mines, send a bunch of fire ships through first, breaking the mines at several points, then bumrush the hole they make before the mines can close the gap. Duh. It all can't just instantly pop right back in place, nor can those mines destroy every alloy known. Something is gonna breach it, either a solid, or learning his quickly these mines can regenerate.
I'm serious, go on a spacewalk, fling a bag of ripped gravel along it's length. Set nukes off along that front. That's not a impossible defence to breech.
Exactly. The war took place at a time of Starfleet's choosing. There was no urgency to launch it: one convoy more or less from Gamma to Cardassia would not make much of a difference. But it would make a bit of a difference - and the UFP no doubt was engaged in a parallel effort. So it would be a numbers game. Both sides would be frantically calculating the optimal moment when their escalation would give them advantage over the opponent's, and "A Call to Arms" was it for Starfleet.
Whether they miscalculated, and whether the Dominion had ended up with a different date or the same one, we can speculate upon. But Starfleet must have known it would not be instantaneously ready to wage a war on victorious terms. It might well take two years to summon a force of sufficient size (Starfleet isn't garrisoned as a "fleet in being", it's deployed and being run ragged in the far frontier), and launching the war with a lesser force would be worse than surrendering outright.
Good question, and good point! There might have been jammers hidden in the minefield, but the above evidence suggests those were not 100% effective.
Although one could argue the Dominion folks at the Alpha beachhead could simply deduce that all the Founders should be dying, given the known facts of the matter. And Weyoun #6 (?) would be inclined to put it in grim terms rather than optimistic ones.
Oh, that could easily be seen as an indication for wanting to negotiate from a position of strength. After all, they blow up all that stuff and then come to say "we could do worse", instead of actually doing the worse.
Again, it would be a numbers game. Do we know how the balance swings? Well, we do - the minefield demonstrably can't be cleared by simple means that should naturally include overloading. So we can pseudo-do the reverse math and accept that pushing hulks into the field won't outpace the self-replication capabilities of the mines, for any realistic value of number/mass/attractiveness-as-targets of pushed hulks.
And sending indestructible stuff through won't really work, because there is no demand for indestructible stuff getting through. The Dominion needs its warships to get through intact instead, and if those could be made indestructible, they already would have been.
Timo Saloniemi
Those mines were incredible. In a tiny package they installed a powerful explosive, a cloaking device, a replicator, a sensor package and a power source.
I presume there must also have been a source of material for the replicator to draw on, as even Starfleet can't make stuff out of thin air. Or can they? That's always been a bit unclear for me. Are they converting pure energy to matter?
I presume there must also have been a source of material for the replicator to draw on, as even Starfleet can't make stuff out of thin air. Or can they? That's always been a bit unclear for me. Are they converting pure energy to matter?
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