Who DON'T you want to see as the next Doctor?

[ihno]

What? I really don't see how the transsexual horse is meant to be offensive.
But regardless, even RTD threw in jokes about sexual minorities, hell he even used the word "gay" as a pejorative. After the first time he did it (Aliens of London, Rose describes Jackie slapping the Doctor as "so gay") people actually accused him of being homophobic(!) because of it.

I have googled both scenes, the one you mentioned too and rewatched them.

First the "transsexual horse":
The doctor says "I speak horse. He's called Susan, and he wants you to respect his life choices."

In general it makes a difference if it is a gay person, who makes a joke about being gay (or other sexual minorities) or a straight person.

And gay people notice the difference. We know, if and when we are included in the audience or not.

Yes, I believe that Moffat didn't/doesn't have bad intentions when he writes stuff like that. But it's soo incredibly dumb, heterosexual, stale and very "yesterday" nonetheless.

So, being transsexual is a choice? And shouldn't the - so accepting doctor - say her, not his?

And it's even dangerous. In the USA religious lunatics also believe that being gay or being transsexual is a "choice" for a "lifestyle" with devastating results for young gay/trans people.

Moffat's humour is a kind of humour that excludes sexual minorities from the audience. It is laughing about, not with trans people. "Her name is Susan and she wants you to respect her identity" might have been something that trans and gay people might find funny too (which would still be generous).

But it was just one example for Moffat's male hetero-centrism. And I don't say that he's a homophobe, he's just narrow-minded.

Now the other scene.
Totally different thing for me. It was a remark from a working-class girl, not the superiour 900 year old being. I don't feel offended now and didn't object back then. And if people called RTD a homophobe - where were they, when Susan was on screen?

 

[Jedman67]

I dislike Missy, nothing against the Master being a woman, I just couldn't stand her.

 

[The Wormhole]

I have googled both scenes, the one you mentioned too and rewatched them.

First the "transsexual horse":
The doctor says "I speak horse. He's called Susan, and he wants you to respect his life choices."

In general it makes a difference if it is a gay person, who makes a joke about being gay (or other sexual minorities) or a straight person.

And gay people notice the difference. We know, if and when we are included in the audience or not.

Yes, I believe that Moffat didn't/doesn't have bad intentions when he writes stuff like that. But it's soo incredibly dumb, heterosexual, stale and very "yesterday" nonetheless.

So, being transsexual is a choice? And shouldn't the - so accepting doctor - say her, not his?

And it's even dangerous. In the USA religious lunatics also believe that being gay or being transsexual is a "choice" for a "lifestyle" with devastating results for young gay/trans people.

Moffat's humour is a kind of humour that excludes sexual minorities from the audience. It is laughing about, not with trans people. "Her name is Susan and she wants you to respect her identity" might have been something that trans and gay people might find funny too (which would still be generous).

But it was just one example for Moffat's male hetero-centrism. And I don't say that he's a homophobe, he's just narrow-minded.

Moffat didn't write that episode. A Town Called Mercy was written by Toby Whithouse. Granted, as showrunner, Moffat does have editing authority over the scripts, that doesn't mean the individual writers are absolved of responsibility. Unless you have further proof of Moffat disrespecting sexual minorities from an episode he actually wrote, don't hold it against him. Or even if there is an example from episodes written by others, you might be able to make a case that Moffat is allowing it.

BTW, Toby Whithouse, according to a Google search, has not publicly stated what his sexual orientation. What if he is gay? Does that not kind of take the wind out of your sales?

 

[ihno]

Moffat didn't write that episode. (...) Unless you have further proof ...

Ok, thanks for the correction. I was so sure it was Moffat.

The rest you write is totally secondary. Proof???

Maybe you don't understand or you don't care: I don't want to get insulted when I watch a tv show.

And if that insulting joke was written or produced by Moffat or by someone else or and improvisation by an actor or how successfull you are in snooping after Whithouse's sexuality is of no substantial value in the end. The more people are involved in things like that, the worse it gets. It doesn't make it better.

But thanks again for pointing out that detail. It doesn't matter at all but it's good to know.

 

[The Wormhole]

The rest you write is totally secondary. Proof???

Well, yeah. Proof. You accused Moffat of insulting sexual minorities, and built your whole case against him around an episode he didn't even write. If you're going to accuse people of anything, you should have proof. Have there been any other slanders made against the LGBT community in other episodes produced or even written by Moffat?

To be honest, accusing Moffat of disrespecting sexual minorities strikes me as, well odd. Under RTD, Moffat helped in introducing the franchise's first openly LGBT character, and during his own tenure running the show he's established Time Lord gender changes as a normal thing, and even cast the franchise's first transgender actor. Moffat has many flaws, I'll be the first to admit that. But I see no grounds to say he's disrespectful to the LGBT community, and your only proof on the matter is a joke about a transgendered horse that he didn't even have anything to do with.

 

[diankra]

Anyway... what I don't want is a Tennant-alike. But I fear that is what we'll get.

 

[ihno]

Well, yeah. Proof. You accused Moffat of insulting sexual minorities, ....

It's the "let's concentrate on a detail while ignoring the main message" trick, isn't it?

Well, what did I really write?
"Doctor who is a show, which - since Davis wasn't involved any more - insulted sexual minorities occasionally. I vividly remember jokes about "transsexual horses", so that straight people can have a laugh. I felt offended."

And initially I thought M. wrote that episode and even when I thought so I wrote: "I believe that Moffat didn't/doesn't have bad intentions when he writes stuff like that."

And "Ok, thanks for the correction. I was so sure it was Moffat." TWICE!

So, really, you want "proof" for something that I never said and if I did, I have already corrected it. Your reaction could be understandable if I wrote that Moffat has an anti-gay agenda. But I didn't. The world is more complicated. And it doesn't matter who writes stuff like that, it matters that they are in the show.

And I never "accused" - jokes like this are a fact in doctor who, so you now can demand proof for more jokes because I used the plural and not the singular. But I will not answer those any more. Non nitpicky people will understand me, I'm sure.

 

[Marc]

ETA: Another vote for not Olivia Colman. She's in bloody everything nowadays.

Wasn't that her joke in that Special with Peter Davison and Colin Baker for the 50th Anniversary?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

"I'm usually in everything."

 

[Starkers]

Anyway... what I don't want is a Tennant-alike. But I fear that is what we'll get.

I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world, but yeah I know what you mean. I suppose if we're following a classic trend then we had everyone's favourite Doctor evah! (Tom/Tennant) followed by the young guy who somehow manages to follow him (Davison/Smith) followed by the grouchy one (Colin/Capaldi) then the next Doctor should be the clown who somehow morphs into a Machiavellian genius! (McCoy/?)

Obviously that's a very simplistic overview- for me Smith is a better Doctor than Tennant, and Capaldi is a more likebale Doctor than Colin-but there is a certain similarity to what we've seen (although it might break down if we extend back to Eccleston who wasn't really similar to Pertwee).

Maybe the question should be not which actor do we want/not want as the next Doctor, but rather what kind of Doctor do we want/not want?

 

[The Wormhole]

although it might break down if we extend back to Eccleston who wasn't really similar to Pertwee

If anything Eccleston comes off as a modern day Hartnell. You got it all, the sense of mystery, the short fuse personality where he'll snap at people and be rude, but has a soft and protective nature towards his companion. Actually, when I put it into words, it just comes off as a generic description for any Doctor, but the Eccleston season does come off as largely a modernized take on the Hartnell era. I guess it helps they are both the first of their respective time frames (Hartnell is the First Doctor, while Eccleston is the first Doctor of the modern era).

 

[Green Lantern]

Maybe the question should be not which actor do we want/not want as the next Doctor, but rather what kind of Doctor do we want/not want?

That might have been a better question actually, although both are valid.

The sort of Doctor I don't want would be a "safe" Doctor (I.E safe casting and characterization). Basically a Doctor where you can predict how they're going to be (for example if Ben Wishaw was cast and he ended up being a Matt Smith like Doctor). As for the type of Doctor I would like, I'd like a more serious and mysterious Doctor (the mysterious part would tie into your theory of modern doctors following trends, as McCoy was fairly mysterious). Also something I've recently really warmed to, I'd love to see an androgynous Doctor, that'd be pretty cool. Although I've been pretty vocal about wanting to avoid a female Doctor, if we did get one I'd like her to be fairly androgynous, to the degree she wouldn't even really notice/pay attention that she's gender swapped, like she only picks up on it half way through her first episode when someone mentions she's a woman.

If anything Eccleston comes off as a modern day Hartnell. You got it all, the sense of mystery, the short fuse personality where he'll snap at people and be rude, but has a soft and protective nature towards his companion. Actually, when I put it into words, it just comes off as a generic description for any Doctor, but the Eccleston season does come off as largely a modernized take on the Hartnell era. I guess it helps they are both the first of their respective time frames (Hartnell is the First Doctor, while Eccleston is the first Doctor of the modern era).

I'd say you could argue Eccleston's both a blend of Hartnel and Pertwee. Both fairly serious Doctors, Eccleston has the mysteriousness of Hartnel, but spent a lot of time on Earth during this incarnation. His era overall probably feels most similar to McCoy's however.

 

[Starkers]

I agree that I wouldn't want a safe choice, but it's a tricky fine line because whoever it is has to be obviously The Doctor.

 

[Velocity]

I don't want a Doctor who is too silly and I'm in the "not a female" camp. I'd rather have another Romana type character with her own personality in addition to the Doctor and Missy. Female time lords would be very welcome.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Please not Kris Marshall. Can't stand him.

 

[starsuperion]

I vote for Craig Ferguson!

 

[The Wormhole]

I love Craig Ferguson as much as a hetero male can love another male, but even I realize it makes little sense for Capaldi's successor to be another Scottish male in his 50s.

 

[starsuperion]

I love Craig Ferguson as much as a hetero male can love another male, but even I realize it makes little sense for Capaldi's successor to be another Scottish male in his 50s.

I disagree..but my objection is moot. I just realized this thread said who you DONT WANT to be the next Doctor. Lol I'll save my arguements for Craig for a thread about who you want to be the next Doctor instead. My bad.