i'm starting to dig DS9

[TroiFan4ever]

There will always be a bigger place in my heart for TNG and will never like DS9 as much as i love TNG, but now that i've been watching episodes of Deep Space Nine on TV, i gotta say it's starting to catch my fancy. I remember as a kid though my mom noticed i liked TNG and tried to get me to watch DS9 as well but i was never interested in it. Well actually, the second hour of the finale episode "What You Leave Behind" was on the night i posted this and i must say, "What You Leave Behind" is a stronger final episode than TNG's "All Good Things..."

I still haven't seen all of Deep Space Nine but from what i have seen, the following are my favorite episodes:
"Defiant"
"Rapture"
"The Darkness and the Light"
"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"
"Empok Nor"
"Far Beyond the Stars"
"One Little Ship"
"Valiant"
"Image in the Sand"

I only like "Defiant" because of Riker's appearance in it. I listed the episodes i like in order of release date but "Rapture" would be at the top of the list anyway. Seeing Sisko getting nearly killed when the Holosuite shorted and electrocuted him was dramatic. Even if it was killing him Sisko seemed that determined to see his vision of the lost city of B'Hala. I like it. It was funny how even though Quark was the one who called for help, Odo still arrested him! Also, that all transpired at 3 am, so Sisko was tired, no matter the Holosuite might've shorted on him.

"The Darkness and the Light" was an epic episode, mainly for the epic fight scene when pregnant Kira escapes her confines on the operating table and fights with the Cardassian who was about to kill her but Kira got the phaser and blasted him dead. Nice! Go, Kira! "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" is one of my favorites because of The Doctor from Voyager coming to Deep Space Nine to make a holographic replica of Bashir, much to Bashir's annoyance. But why The Doctor was wearing a yellow uniform when he usually wears blue on Voyager is beyond me. But it's interesting to see him wear the uniform with the gray shoulder. "Empok Nor" is up there because of O'Brien, Nog, and a few others going to a ghost (abandoned) space station that looks just like Deep Space Nine, but the Cardassian they brought with them is possessed and killed a crewmember and was about to kill Nog too.

"Far Beyond the Stars" is a racist episode! But i still like it (i'm Black) because it was so fascinating to see the cast of DS9 portray other characters without the makeup and prosthetic. It's interesting because it's like Sisko entered some kind of parallel reality where the people he knows on DS9 have drastically different personalities but if they're human or look human they look the same. Weyoun was even there! As one of the racist cops who beat up Sisko/Benny. Also, i didn't even recognize Armin Shimerman without all the Ferengi prosthetic. As embarrassed as i am to admit this, I also didn't recognize Terry Ferrel/Jadzia Dax's New York City personality until i looked at the script as i was watching the episode! She's my favorite character on the show! The only makeup Terry Ferrel wears for Dax are those animal spots on her face, and i still didn't know it was her. Ugh.

"One Little Ship" was an epic episode! I didn't see the whole episode but it was fun to watch because a Runabout piloted by O'Brien, Dax, and Bashir, has been shrunken so they can infiltrate a ship Sisko, Nog, Kira, and Worf, were held prisoner on. I kind of laughed seeing Dax had to bump the Runabout into a panel to access a Turbolift. That fight scene that took place once the Runabout got to the bridge was epic! I like it.

"Valiant" was good because of it's good story. Nog and Jake being in grave danger, being ambushed by Jem'hadar ships but just when they're about to be blown to pieces a ship called Valiant, manned by a bunch of kids or teens transports them off that Runabout and onto their own ship. For some reason, "Valiant" feels like it could've been a TNG episode. I dunno. Maybe Wesley Crusher and another junior officer on a shuttle en route back to the Enterprise being ambushed and a ship manned by Sito beams them to safety or something like that? Anyway. It did have a sad ending. That ship's captain died in the midst of a hellacious battle, and their ship was being ripped apart. But at least Nog and Jake, who had a falling out earlier in that episode, became friends again. It took something like that for them to make up? Wow. Sad.

Despite that they had to kill off Jadzia because Terry Ferrel didn't renew her contract to do Season 7 i like "Images in the Sand" because Sisko had quite the adventure in New Orleans at his restaurant. That scene when Sisko got stabbed in the stomach by a Bajoran over an orb? That was suspenseful.

So yeah, Deep Space Nine is a nice Trek series. I just wish Terry Ferrel could've been in Season 7. I like Jadzia more than Ezri. OH! I love how the transporter beam is exactly the same as on TNG!!! Well, Deep Space Nine is a spin-off of The Next Generation. But then again i like how Voyager's transporter beam is completely different.

Well, they are gonna re-run DS9 beginning tomorrow night, but i'm still fairly new to DS9, so are there any particular episodes any DS9 fans want me to keep an eye out for? Any recommendations?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Welcome to you new obsession!? i think that the episodes that you enjoy are more or less well-regarded, although there are posters in this forum who don't like Valiant for various reasons.

Watching episodes in order isn't as imperative for the first two seasons as it is for season 3 and after, but it still helps a lot. The key episodes are:

Emissary
Past Prologue
Captive Pursuits
Battle Lines
Progress
Duet
In the Hands of the Prophets
Homecoming/Circle/Siege (although the last of the trilogy is less essential)
Cardassians
Necessary Evil
Whispers
Paradise
The Maquis i/II
The Wire
Crossover
Collaborator
Tribunal
Jem'hadarr

The first third of season 1 is shaky: stories and scripts were ordered almost entirely on the basis of the series' "bible," which offered only general descriptions of characters and settings. Casting caused numerous adjustments to characters, and the pilot underwent revisions until almost the last minute. If I'm not mistaken, Dax was cast after filming had begun. The scripts that came back not only tended to be written more for TNG, they also had to be extensively rewritten at the last minute.

 

[KennyB]

I was never the same after "In the Pale Moonlight"...........never really took it serious until that episode. Shit got real!

 

[dub]

Man. I thought the same thing about TNG. But then I reluctantly binge watched DS9. I wasn't excited about it...at first.

It wouldn't necessarily be on a list of the absolute best episodes, but after the first season episode "Progress" faded to black, I was a Niner. I knew it was my new favorite series at some point during season 5 or 6, but I didn't realize it was the best Trek series until I cried like a baby during the finale. I doubt it has nearly the emotional impact without watching the series in its entirety. There are few episodes that don't have some nugget of relationship/character development, so it's definitely worth watching the whole shebang.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

We both love DS9 but seem to have almost opposite taste in DS9 episodes. To me Darkness and the Light and Empok Nor are written like bad horror films, and Doctor Bashir I Presume ruined Bashir's character permanently.

Some of my favorites are:
In The Pale Moonlight
Nor The Battle To The Strong
Whispers
The Die Is Cast
Past Tense
By Inferno's Light
Sacrifice Of Angels
The Siege Of AR-558
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
The Visitor

 

[TroiFan4ever]

Welcome to you new obsession!? i think that the episodes that you enjoy are more or less well-regarded, although there are posters in this forum who don't like Valiant for various reasons.

I wouldn't call it an obsession just quite yet. I guess "Valiant" wouldn't be well liked because it pretty much focused more on guest characters than the main cast who were only in the beginning and end of the episode.

We both love DS9 but seem to have almost opposite taste in DS9 episodes. To me Darkness and the Light and Empok Nor are written like bad horror films,

I couldn't help but laugh at that. "Empok Nor" i'll admit, could've been better written but it's suspenseful scenes made it fun to watch.

and Doctor Bashir I Presume ruined Bashir's character permanently.

How so?

 

[rocketdave]

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume" is one of my favorites because of The Doctor from Voyager coming to Deep Space Nine to make a holographic replica of Bashir, much to Bashir's annoyance. But why The Doctor was wearing a yellow uniform when he usually wears blue on Voyager is beyond me. But it's interesting to see him wear the uniform with the gray shoulder.

That's because the character Robert Picardo plays in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" is not the same character as on Voyager. On Voyager, Picardo plays the Emergency Medical Hologram while on DS9, he was playing Lewis Zimmerman, the human creator of that program.

 

[Voth commando1]

You could get kind of a reflection of the Dr's personality in Zimmerman, the lack of manners and skirt chasing(somewhat) and vanity.

 

[rocketdave]

How so?

Some people weren't thrilled with the revelation about Bashir being genetically engineered, including Alexander Siddig himself, though I think he eventually came around to the idea, or at least he claimed he did (maybe he was being diplomatic). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading that this new development came about because some higher-up at Paramount thought DS9 had too many characters and/or they didn't like Bashir and wanted him written off the show, so this was an attempt to make him more interesting. Personally, I liked Bashir just fine before. I'm a little ambivalent about the retcon, but I can see why it would upset others.

 

[Spot261]

Some people weren't thrilled with the revelation about Bashir being genetically engineered, including Alexander Siddig himself, though I think he eventually came around to the idea, or at least he claimed he did (maybe he was being diplomatic). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading that this new development came about because some higher-up at Paramount thought DS9 had too many characters and/or they didn't like Bashir and wanted him written off the show, so this was an attempt to make him more interesting. Personally, I liked Bashir just fine before. I'm a little ambivalent about the retcon, but I can see why it would upset others.

In addition to the above I often feel that the retcon (if that's what we are going to call it - character development or reveal might be less controversial) really didn't carry over to how he's actually portrayed on screen.

We got the odd Spock/Data esque "oh that'll take 3 months, 2 days 7 hours and 43 minutes to repair" type comment, or references to him having an unfair advantage when playing darts, but it's all pretty superficial. Nothing actually happens that really requires his augmentation to make sense. Yes he's a highly proficient doctor who can pioneer ad hoc procedures, but show me a starship doctor who can't.

When we watch Khan onscreen it is made pretty clear that this is a man capable of things others are not, whether physically, mentally or simply in terms of the scale and boldness of his ambitions. We simply don't get that with Bashir, he's just another clever starfleet officer who happens to have a backstory clamped on.

 

[Voth commando1]

In addition to the above I often feel that the retcon (if that's what we are going to call it - character development or reveal might be less controversial) really didn't carry over to how he's actually portrayed on screen.

We got the odd Spock/Data esque "oh that'll take 3 months, 2 days 7 hours and 43 minutes to repair" type comment, or references to him having an unfair advantage when playing darts, but it's all pretty superficial. Nothing actually happens that really requires his augmentation to make sense. Yes he's a highly proficient doctor who can pioneer ad hoc procedures, but show me a starship doctor who can't.

When we watch Khan onscreen it is made pretty clear that this is a man capable of things others are not, whether physically, mentally or simply in terms of the scale and boldness of his ambitions. We simply don't get that with Bashir, he's just another clever starfleet officer who happens to have a backstory clamped on.

If he was genetically engineered wouldn't he have been able to solve the quickening?

 

[rocketdave]

Well, Bashir's enhancements certainly don't seem to be on par with those of Khan or the augments seen on Enterprise. And just because he's smart doesn't mean he can automatically find the cure for all diseases. Clearly, not all genetically enhanced beings are equal. Bashir was a kid with some sort of learning disability who was given above average intelligence and superior darts playing abilities, but those traits don't appear to be beyond the reach of what a non-genetically engineered person might possess.

 

[Spot261]

If he was genetically engineered wouldn't he have been able to solve the quickening?

From an in universe perspective that's a good point, he should at least have had a better chance than another, non augmented, doctor.

Out of universe of course he HAD to fail for the episode (and thus the AIDS analogy) to work.

 

[Voth commando1]

I don't mind the retcon though and think it rather immature and unprofessional he sabotaged his own lines.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Well... DS9 is the best trek so...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I wouldn't call it an obsession just quite yet. I guess "Valiant" wouldn't be well liked because it pretty much focused more on guest characters than the main cast who were only in the beginning and end of the episode.



I couldn't help but laugh at that. "Empok Nor" i'll admit, could've been better written but it's suspenseful scenes made it fun to watch.



How so?

To me, making Bashir genetically engineered ruined his character. It made it so all his successes weren't because of him as a person but because his parents genetically engineered him.

Empok Nor is a big skip episode for me. It's the worst redshirting DS9 is ever guilty of. They create all these minor characters just to use as cannon fodder.

 

[Praetorian]

Bashir's genetical engineering should have been a very light one, from a disabled person to an average one.

In fact, I think that might have been the intention and scenes such as doing complex calculations faster than a computer or having superior eye-hand coordination were mistake.

It would have made the ethical dilemma more interesting too. Why can't you use genetic engineering in cases such as Bashir? You're not creating supermen, just restoring what people see as the baseline of human capability.

And all of his achievements would have still resulted from his hard work and dedication.

 

[kkt]

I have to wonder, if his hand-eye coordination was so great, why wasn't he good enough to be a pro tennis player? Maybe the real reason was that he knew that if he was a pro his genetic engineering secret would come out?

 

[Praetorian]

I have to wonder, if his hand-eye coordination was so great, why wasn't he good enough to be a pro tennis player? Maybe the real reason was that he knew that if he was a pro his genetic engineering secret would come out?

It would make sense if he purposely underperformed in order to not draw any undesired attention. Same with the preganglionic fiber/postganglionic nerve mistake that prevented him from graduating top of his class.

Wasn't that implied in the show?

 

[Nyotarules]

Anyone read the DS9 novel where Bashir lost his genetic abilities?