Dukat character - writer's mess?!

[kkt]

It's possible to be unhappy with some aspects of the character but still pleased with it overall. How many people who have worked at the same job for seven years are happy about every single thing about the job? Or who have been married have been delighted with every single thing about their spouse and the marriage?

 

[Six of Twelve]

In season 3 and 4, Dukat was presented as a more grey villain. But was he ever really? What grey villain could really do the things we know he did? I think the writers called BS on themselves at some point and realized, no, a decent person could not do the things we know he did.

I don't think Dukat had virtues as well as faults. I think his greatest faults made him really good at projecting virtues. I think he's the Cardassian equivalent of a certain Earth politician you probably know who I'm talking about.

He joined the Dominion to make Cardassia great again.

Oh, yes, he's very much like Trump and that has caused me to back off sharply from my fascination with him, which was more of a fascination with the actor, rather than the character, per se. But, the really bad stuff he did, didn't really come to light until the later seasons, and if it hadn't been written in, he could have been redeemable.

 

[Armus]

To start off, I'd say that in many ways he's better described as an anti-hero, or shall we say hero-villain?, because the character does have certain qualities - courage, assurance, intelligence, the force of his convictions - which in and of themselves are admirable. Many such people in real life do; that's how they get others to follow them in the first place.

He has a lot of what it takes to be the great man he undoubtedly thinks himself to be, it's what he does with these in and of themselves admirable qualities that's despicable - and this is because he's also self-obsessed, power-hungry and entirely ruthless. He lacks a moral compass, and like most narcissists he lacks self-knowledge - the latter being the reason he ends up his own worst enemy more often than not.
Of course, from the first appearance it's obvious that this is going to be the main adversary, but the charisma the actor Marc Alaimo imparts to his role also gives the immediate impression this isn't going to be your run-of-the-mill villain.
Therefore the character could take development, but he didn't need turning on his head! For instance, "soft" I just don't buy from this person. The same goes for some sort of quasi-religious conversion. When he comes to Weyoun telling him he's no longer interested in power and conquest - I mean what's this man about if not power and conquest?! - that was it for me. I'd say that's where the writers lost me if they hadn't already done so by the end of the "Sacrifice of Angels" episode. I know the scene was meant to be moving, but I simply couldn't believe this man turning into a blubbing pathetic wreck from one second to the next.
I know the writers said it wasn't their intention to show him as losing his head over the love of his child but that's how it comes across. What made the character perfect for me was the fact that there were things that made him impressive while being reprehensible, so as a viewer you're forced to admire him almost against your will. It adds to his ambivalence: he may be a bastard, but he's a magnificent one. So he was someone you could really love to hate. There's no point in a good villain if you can't hate him and feel the precarious satisfaction of being justified in hating him. Yet paradoxically that needs a certain amount of respect. Strip the character of his dignity, and you can only despise and there's a difference. The fatal flaw in that scene to my mind is that he hasn't somehow fundamentally changed, he's not become likeable, you can't suddenly feel for him; therefore rather than making him sympathetic, he's made simply to appear pitiful. His apparent grief doesn't ennoble him or make him a better person. He is still vile; only now he's weak, and there's nothing more despicable than a creature who is both vile and weak. A spectacular fall from grace only makes sense if it can inspire compassion - all this inspired in me was a mixture of disbelief and disgust.
Ruining the character entirely just went in progressive stages from there.
First, turn him insane. Oh yes, the insane evildoer, lame cliche here we come. The truly frightening, and much more intriguing thing is the fact that the most atrocious deeds can be, and have been, committed and rationalized by perfectly sane people. Next, make him not merely insane, but the insane self-styled leader of some evil religious cult. I had my tolerance and my credulity stretched so far by that episode that I actually switched off the TV. Forget merely lame cliche, it's preposterous we're at now.
Next step, have the man who not so long ago professed his hatred of everything Bajoran in an outburst that, mental state notwithstanding, sounded as though he meant those words, willing to turn himself into one??
And to finish it all off, just go the whole hog and have the lame and preposterous and tasteless B-movie cliche of demonic possession, complete with the red devil eyes.
Why even invest originality and personality in the character in the first place if that's how he ends up? Why insult such a talented actor by wasting him on that kind of utter tosh?
What about the writer's much-vaunted avoidance of one-dimensionality? He's less than one-dimensional by the end, he's reduced to a caricature. Besides, insanity lets him off the hook, because you're hardly fully responsible for your actions if you're insane, even less so, if you're taken over by some malign spirit. It is lazy and counter-productive.
I want a character like that to be fully accountable and responsible for his actions and choices. Lastly, he doesn't even decently die, so there's no catharsis. The viewer is denied the one cliche he could justifiably expect, and the only one that would have been satisfying: the bit where the bad guy gets what he deserves. Only what he gets is the equivalent of eternal damnation - presumably his body burns up and dies but it's hinted that the essence of him is still in there somewhere with those fire things. Literally eternal torment? No-one deserves that. Even punishment for the worst crimes must end at some point because the crimes themselves cannot be endless. So his final fate is at one and the same time too much and not enough.
Simply watch the first meeting between Dukat and Sisko and the last confrontation and compare. That first scene packs ten times the impact and subtle meaning than the o.t.t. sledgehammer of the last. The first time they come face to face, volumes of antagonism are spoken with very few words, a look, a fleeting expression. In the final showdown by contrast, nothing very much at all is said with a lot of fireworks. Well, I rest my case...
Sorry for the length. It was a bit of a rant. I needed to get this off my chest for quite some while now!​

I always thought having Dukat side with The Dominion in Season 5 destroyed the credibility of his character. Didn't he know Starfleet always wins?

 

[Six of Twelve]

I always thought having Dukat side with The Dominion in Season 5 destroyed the credibility of his character. Didn't he know Starfleet always wins?

Not so much that Starfleet "always" wins, but, rather that aligning with the Dominion was a totally naive move if he thought they'd treat the Cardassians like equal partners, rather than subjugating them, like every other race they dealt with. Dukat was a lot of things, but I never took him to be naive.

 

[kkt]

Working for the Dominion made sense, if he'd rather be the head of the puppet state instead of just another Gul of an independent Cardassia.

 

[Voth commando1]

Yeah Dukat is supposed to be an intelligent savvy guy yet somehow he thinks the dominion would treat the Cardassians as equals when their basically depending on the dominion for: survival(food supplies), winning its wars(Klingons and Maquis), and what not else.

Heck Sisko says as much in "Ties of Blood and Water" and Dukat says something to the effect of "it's so much more complex than that rube!" Which I couldn't help but laugh I was like that's so stupid.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think the writers called BS on themselves at some point and realized, no, a decent person could not do the things we know he did.

Dukat's brief redemption was likely only a consequence of the emphasis on the Klingons as a threat in season 4. Absent that, he was a complete dick.

So Marc Alaimo was dissatisfied with his character's progression, apparently Avery Brooks was unsatisfied with where Sisko ended up, Siddig wasn't satisfied with being an augment, Visitor and Auberjonois weren't happy were their pairing.

You are making mountains over mole hills.

 

[Voth commando1]

Dukat's brief redemption was likely only a consequence of the emphasis on the Klingons as a threat in season 4. Absent that, he was a complete dick.



You are making mountains over mole hills.

I just think it's curious allegedly most every DS9 actor/actress was mad/upset/dissatisfied with something or another at the end of the show.

 

[Tosk]

I just think it's curious allegedly most every DS9 actor/actress was mad/upset/dissatisfied with something or another at the end of the show.

Curious in what way? I'd be amazed if any Trek regular said that they agreed with and loved every beat of their series from go to woah.

 

[Voth commando1]

Curious in what way? I'd be amazed if any Trek regular said that they agreed with and loved every beat of their series from go to woah.

I'm not saying the actors would naturally love every twist and turn but for most of the cast to have a complaint or another is truly striking.

 

[Tosk]

Having a difference of opinion is not the same thing. And as far as I know, Avery objected to one aspect of the finale, which they altered to accommodate his concerns...which is hardly unique.

Also, Rene and Nana, whilst not initially wanting the relationship to go in that direction, don't seem too bent out of shape about it...

Rene:

"I don’t know what it was that I did or if it was how it was shot, but the next day, when they were looking at the dailies, the writers said, “Oh my God, look, Odo loves Kira.” And they went with that. Both Nana and I, when that started to become a theme, went, “What? Oh my God, look at that. Isn’t that interesting?” Ours is not to question why as actors. So we went with it."

Nana:

TrekCore: What are your honest thoughts about the Kira/Odo relationship. How did you feel when you first found out where the writers were going to go with it?

Nana Visitor: Well, you know – honestly – I was disappointed. I thought it was so great to have a deep friendship between people who worked together that wasn’t romantic. I thought “Oh, here we go, the moonlighting thing – everyone always has to end up in a romance.” But then I had a very deep friendship with Alexander Siddig that ended up with a baby, so I had to go “Well, you know what? This is truthful! It happens!”
[...]
TrekCore: Were you pleased with how Kira and Odo turned out in the end, did it come around for you?

Nana Visitor: Oh it absolutely came around for me. I thought it was a beautiful love story, and a real love story that they both understood that he had to go back to the soup. Laughs

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I just think it's curious allegedly most every DS9 actor/actress was mad/upset/dissatisfied with something or another at the end of the show.

Mad how? Alaimo wanted the character to go one direction, but it didn't. He was never mad.

Brooks wanted a slightly different spin on the explanation of his character's disappearance. It was changed. He was not mad.

Visitor did not want her character to fall in love with the co-worker with whom she had the greatest mutual respect.However, she was elated to have more scenes with Auberjonois. You can see their professional admiration for one another in their numerous joint convention appearances. Neither was mad.

Siddig hated being turned into another Data. Through various acts of resistance he got his message across to the writers. He was ultimately satisfied with the direction his character took. He was not mad.

 

[Spot261]

I wonder how much of the dissatisfaction with the character's developments could be down to the format. Previous trek shows didn't really DO character development, you could almost literally lift any TNG character from season 3 and out them into a season 7 episode and no one would really notice the difference. Yes, even Data, although Wesley is an obvious exception.

When people signed on for DS9 did they do so on the tacit understanding that this would be the case here? That they would be portraying a largely static character throughout on an episodic basis, rather than a more fluid one throughout a story arc?

I hope not given some of the talent on display, Alaimo being a prime example, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Prax]

TNG had a great deal of character development, just not a lot of character growth. There was more growth given the characters in the later shows. Quark, Sisko, Bashir(kind of), Odo, Paris, B'elanna, EMH, Seven, Trip, Archer, and T'Pol all had a lot of growth. They changed throughout the show. We get to learn more and more about Picard, Riker, Data, etc. They gain more depth, but remain more or less the same people.

 

[Navaros]

So Marc Alaimo was dissatisfied with his character's progression

Dukat did not have "progression." He had the polar opposite of progression. They degraded him from a complex, three-dimensional, largely good but sometimes bad, incredibly deep character, into a one-dimensional cartoon caricature.

Of course Alaimo was dissatisfied with the writers ruining his character for no good reason, just like many DS9 fans were/are too. The fubaring of Dukat is one of the worst & most bone-headed storytelling decisions of all-time.

SFDebris had a review of the episode where Dukat and Sisko are stranded on a planet together and how the whole series would have been better served if Dukat had actually died at the end of the episode.

That would have been much better than what they actually put in the series, but...

Alternatively, the series would have been better still if they didn't ruin Dukat's character starting with when they had him stay on the station to be captured as if he were an idiot. That was totally OOC for Dukat and the first of many fubars. Dukat never should have been on that planet with Sisko because he never should have been a Federation prisoner in the first place.

Yeah Dukat is supposed to be an intelligent savvy guy yet somehow he thinks the dominion would treat the Cardassians as equals when their basically depending on the dominion for: survival(food supplies), winning its wars(Klingons and Maquis), and what not else.

I'm sure Dukat didn't think that. Dukat was man enough to hold his own vs. Weyoun. It didn't matter to Dukat if the Dominion couldn't be trusted, because Dukat knew he was smart enough and strong enough to deal with complications that may come up later.

 

[Tosk]