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Spoilers Suicide Squad - Grading & Discussion

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So what? Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West takes more than an hour to just show us the 3 main characters! It's still acknowledged as a masterpiece and one of the greatest films ever made!

I have never seen Once Upon a Time in the West, but somehow I doubt that its character intros are done in the style of action movie trailers featuring half a dozen pop songs one after another as individualized logos and DVD screenshot Easter egg text fills the screen for going on 45 minutes.
 
I have never seen Once Upon a Time in the West, but somehow I doubt that its character intros are done in the style of action movie trailers featuring half a dozen pop songs one after another as individualized logos and DVD screenshot Easter egg text fills the screen for going on 45 minutes.

Not only haven't you seen Once Upon a Time in the West but you probably haven't watched Leone's The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Replace the pop songs with Ennio Morricone coyote motifs and you've just described the character intros perfectly!
 
Not only haven't you seen Once Upon a Time in the West but you probably haven't watched Leone's The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Replace the pop songs with Ennio Morricone coyote motifs and you've just described the character intros perfectly!

I mean, there's a pretty fundamental difference between use of an original score and a pop song over and over and over again. But I don't want to speak to films I haven't seen.

Mind you, it's no one thing with Suicide Squad. Any one of the problems I have outlined, could have been overcome if the rest of the editing structure had been good. With Suicide Squad, it's death by a thousand poor editing choices and bad structural decisions.
 
Nope, they're better for you.
I'd put BvS miles ahead of all those, because it's more thematically rich and visually impressive than all those other movies combined.



You keep trying to call on arguments of "objectivity", there's no such thing.
Different people have different viewpoints, and yours is not more valid than anyone elses, deal with it.

But what makes your opinion of more value than others?

I grew up loving TOS and Lost in Space, and shows like Spectreman and Space Giants, so visuals don't impress me as much as fun characters I can connect with on some level. I can forgive a lack of depth (at times) in exchange for fun.

I'm not sure if it was you...but yeah, maybe the aforementioned movies are "forgettable" -- like I wouldn't buy the blu ray, but I certainly was willing to go to the theaters for them, and it did NOT leave a bad taste in my mouth...I certainly would be fine watching them on FX or TNT when they came up.

And for all the good things the DC movies have, there seems to be a negative that kinda wipes it out/down...so for example, a terrific portrayal of Lois Lane also gives us a crabby Mrs. Kent, who I feel has some deleted scene somewhere , where she tells Clark (or someone) to "Get Off My Lawn!!!!"

How the DC Film Universe is set up, it seems a mess....so Superman RECENTLY appeared, but we apparently have had metahumans like Killer Croc & El Diablo for while, which doesn't quite jive for me. Within the film itself, no problem....but for the greater DC FU...some cognitive dissonance for me.

By the way -- I think many of us who rail on DC films don't hate DC -- in fact we love many (if not all) of the DC CW, and would argue that THEY understand translating comics to live action video better than the movie people.

I just saw Magnificient 7, and I think they did a better job of showcasing each of the 7 where I liked each of them, and was sad at the deaths among the 7. Suicide Squad had like 2 deaths, and 1 actually meant something.
 
These are objective flaws in the films' structures

What you refer to as "objective flaws" is what every film has, because movies aren't ever logically bulletproof, you can always find faults in plot structure. The degree to which it bothers you will be entirely dependent on how much you enjoy the movie.

In the case of Suicide Squad, it has a ridiculously simple plot structure, it introduces the characters, then the villain's plot and then the group has a straightforward go to place A, then B and do thing C quest. It's dead simple and it services the movie in which several insane people are forced to work together to stop a swirly thing, so I had no problem enjoying it for what it is.

You expected something more, and that's fine, but just because it didn't deliver what you wanted does not make it "wrong".


But what makes your opinion of more value than others?

I have absolutely zero interest in convincing anyone that my opinion is right(even though it is :p).
I'm literally arguing the opposite of that, against this need some people have that there is only one objective opinion of the movie that everyone must recognize as the right one.
 
So at this point I have liked arguments both by Sci and dodge and I can see both their points, what does that mean, will my circuits melt down? (There are some sparks coming out of my ears...)
 
I like both the Marvel and DC films, though I admire the DC films more (even though I consider them more often flawed than Marvel). The aggregate Marvel films (MCU) are usually well-crafted and executed, with fewer moments of "what were they trying to do here?" However, the DC films are not as "safe" as the Marvel films. They take more chances--and I especially like what they've done with Superman (I'm not going to re-hash the "debate", but rather state I'm fully in favour of challenging expectations, as has clearly happened so far). It is the willingness to take chances I admire. Every Marvel film I've seen (I've seen them all) makes "safe choices". They are enjoyable (some more than others, but that's to be expected with so many films now) but never challenge my expectations. The DC films, on the other hand, often do--not always successfully, but I'm a big fan of going big, with the risk of failure, ahead of "staying safe" (even when "safe" is entertaining).
 
What you refer to as "objective flaws" is what every film has, because movies aren't ever logically bulletproof, you can always find faults in plot structure.

No, not every film reaches its natural climax at the end of Act II and then has to bolt on what ought to be the second act of an entirely different film to have its Act III, or is full of incoherent edits.

The degree to which it bothers you will be entirely dependent on how much you enjoy the movie.

This part, I agree with.

See: When I'm talking about objective flaws, I'm not talking about how much you enjoy the film. For a less-charged example: The Room, starring Tommy Wisseau, is an objectively bad movie. It is poorly written, poorly acted, and poorly edited. But of course, many, many people enjoy this film a great deal -- sometimes because of its flaws. The weight you assign to a flaw and the enjoyment you do or do not derive from a film is entirely separate from whether or not the flaws are present.

Now here's the part that may surprise you: I actually enjoyed Suicide Squad in spite of its flaws. Edited to add: I go back and forth on how much I enjoyed it, because it depends on how much weight I assign the parts I enjoyed at that given moment. But (End Edit) I enjoyed it because the parts of it that were good were enough to keep me entertained even while I acknowledge the existence of all these other major structural problems.

In point of fact: Edited to add: At this moment, I think (end edit) I enjoyed Suicide Squad more than Doctor Strange. I absolutely still contend that Doctor Strange is an objectively better film that is structured more competently than Suicide Squad. But Doctor Strange was also very familiar, very paint-by-numbers, while Suicide Squad had the vivid performances of Margot Robbie, Will Smith, and Viola Davis to keep me intrigued and entertained even while I was frustrated by many of its flaws. Doctor Strange is a better movie, but Edited to add: in retrospect, as I think about it right now, (end edit) I probably had more fun at Suicide Squad.

Yet that doesn't mean those flaws aren't there. They are. I can see them and I'm irritated Suicide Squad wasn't better. I don't blame David Ayers, though -- I blame Warner Bros. They didn't give him enough time to write the best possible screenplay, he tried to find the film in editing, and then they fucked with his edit.

I like both the Marvel and DC films, though I admire the DC films more (even though I consider them more often flawed than Marvel). The aggregate Marvel films (MCU) are usually well-crafted and executed, with fewer moments of "what were they trying to do here?" However, the DC films are not as "safe" as the Marvel films. They take more chances--and I especially like what they've done with Superman (I'm not going to re-hash the "debate", but rather state I'm fully in favour of challenging expectations, as has clearly happened so far). It is the willingness to take chances I admire. Every Marvel film I've seen (I've seen them all) makes "safe choices". They are enjoyable (some more than others, but that's to be expected with so many films now) but never challenge my expectations. The DC films, on the other hand, often do--not always successfully, but I'm a big fan of going big, with the risk of failure, ahead of "staying safe" (even when "safe" is entertaining).

I don't take this so far that I admire the DCEU films -- I consider them fundamentally broken at this point. But I will agree that the DC films have been willing to take more risks than most MCU films, especially with the decision to do Suicide Squad as an "anti-Avengers" rather than to follow up Batman v. Superman with a more conventional superhero film. And some MCU films have been sufficiently "safe" that I didn't enjoy them as much as I might have otherwise, such as Doctor Strange as I mentioned above.
 
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When I'm talking about objective flaws, I'm not talking about how much you enjoy the film.

Neither am I, at least not exclusively, I'm just saying enjoyment will ultimately have an effect on what you'll perceive as flaws. Your expectations how the movie should play out also play a role.

Let's take some of your examples of what you believe to be objective flaws:

when there's a character who does not get a movie-trailer intro (Slipknot), we know right away he's going to die and doesn't matter and we shouldn't emotionally invest in him.

I just don't agree that that's important. We're not meant to be emotionally invested in Slipknot, what we do need is to see a head blow up. So all we need to know about him is that the guy's an asshole and a basic description of what his gimmick is, and that's what the movie gives us.
For me this is not a structural flaw, it's working as intended for what the script needs. In fact I think that to have another sequence where he's caught by Batman or The Flash would be redundant and would work against the movie.

Notice how the script is full of things that make no intuitive sense, such as an over-developed antagonist in Griggs, who dominates much of the first act and then basically disappears.

He is a guard at Belle Reve, and I wouldn't say his role is as an antagonist as much as comic relief and a plot device to get Harley in contact with the Joker. Once he hands Harley the phone and the Squad leaves Belle Reve there's really no point for him to be in the rest of the movie. There's no rule that says appearances of secondary characters have to be equally distributed across the movie. He serves his part and he's done. Again, I don't think this is a flaw, it's working as intended.

I should point out again that I'm not trying to convince you that my view on these things is right and your view is wrong, you're totally entitled to feel that the movie should have played out differently and to see these things as flaws, but they're not objective flaws. From the way I perceive the movie as a whole, these aren't flaws at all, they work in favour of the movie.
 
I watched it again on Blu-ray over New Year, still enjoyed it enough, not as classic and a few issues but I don't see what all the big criticism about it was.

Only thing for me was I found myself rolling my eyes at a lot of the music choices. How many films have already featured Fortunate Son, or House of the Rising Sun, etc? They could have gone for something a bit more unique is all.
 
I watched it last weekend. Didn't find it a bad as some have said. Though, the first act was horribly put together and I almost gave up. After that the story and characters solidified and it became a decent action film.
 
I hope they make this comic canon in the DCEU:
xx9OLoV.jpg

:D
 
Finally watched this movie. It's a mess - but it's a watchable mess. Margot Robbie stole the show. Leto was a weak Joker - I did not get the same creepiness from his portrayal that I did from either Ledger or even Nicholson. And the main flaw - his character didn't even belong in the movie!
 
Congratulations to "SUICIDE SQUAD" for its Oscar nominations.


Personally, I thought Jared Leto's Joker was the sexiest I have ever seen. I still think Harley Quinn should walk away from him. But I thought he was sexy.
 
But she actually gets something from him emotionally unlike the comics, so it isn't all one sided. Makes her devotion is a little more understandable.
 
Nomination singular.

And in fairness -- as harsh as I have been on Suicide Squad in this thread -- they absolutely deserved the nomination for costume design. Their designs were genuinely iconic and innovative, especially Harley Quinn's (sexist though it was) and the Joker's (which, in spite of all the shit it got, made a lot of sense as a new take on the character filtered through a contemporary lens).
 
But what makes your opinion of more value than others?

Who said that?

But she actually gets something from him emotionally unlike the comics, so it isn't all one sided. Makes her devotion is a little more understandable.

I guess that Harley does. Yet . . . I get the odd feeling that while Harley is willing to allow the Joker to label her as a possession, she never really labels him in the same way. Has anyone ever seen the Joker wearing a piece of clothing or jewelry labeling himself as Harley's?
 
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