Spoilers Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - Grading & Discussion

[Ithekro]

Rogue One was the first real test on if a Star Wars movie can be made that doesn't follow the main story arc (for the most part). The Han Solo film will be the test for if people can accept more change, though to be fair, Ewan McGregor pulled it off as Obi-wan Kenobi for three films.

And while Harrison Ford doesn't like to admit it, he is very much Han Solo. It be interesting just how Ehrenreich will managed to play Han Solo, while not playing Harrison Ford as Han Solo. I would guess more like Chris Pine playing Captain Kirk (in Star Trek Beyond more so than the rest) than say Vic Mignogna or James Cawley doing the same role, though all three gentlemen play it their way, it is a matter of degrees from William Shatner playing Captain Kirk as that performance defines the role to an extent.

What I am wondering, if where they will go after Episode IX...the third Anthology film. Will they continue with known events and character set around the OT period, or will they try for something in the ST or PT eras? Or go radical and go for an Old Republic era film, or a post-Episode IX film that doesn't involve the main storyline characters?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One thing I noticed about the planet labels in Rogue One is that Mustafar had already appeared earlier in continuity in the films/screen canon, whereas AFAIK all of the other labeled planets/places had not. The Rebel base on Yavin 4 had only been previously shown later in continuity, in SW77/ANH.* So, as of now anyway, the scenes of the Rebel base in RO are now its first shots in continuity. In other words, one might take the view that Mustafar didn't need a label in RO, because that was the one place that we'd've already seen while watching all of on-screen canon in continuity order.

* - Yavin 4 appeared on-screen in Tartakovsky's Clone Wars microseries, but that's not canonical.

 

[Skywalker]

I just realized Rogue One kinda screws up the Machete Order. If you're brand new to Star Wars and you watch this movie before ANH you'll probably be completely lost.

 

[Ithekro]

Maybe....but is there a way to test it?

Or is it possible to watch it in order from TMP to RO before ANH and still get it?

 

[Skywalker]

I think it'd be fine if you're watching in chronological order, because the prequels will provide enough context to figure out what's going on in RO.

The Machete Order proposes starting with ANH (which serves as the best introduction to the story and setting), then watching TESB, then skipping TPM because it's largely irrelevant to Luke's story, then watching AOTC and ROTS before finishing up with ROTJ. Which means if you want to go that route, watching RO first would be awkward because it kind of assumes if you're watching, you're already familiar with what's going on.

 

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't RO fall out of that ordering system because it isn't part of the Story of the Skywalkers? Only tangentially via Vader and Leia as well as it being the backstory for the events of ANH.

Or should it be treated as a double length feature with RO and ANH together?

 

[fireproof78]

If it were just a name, I might agree, but the names came with a brief description which I feel justifies their inclusion as it add some much needed context to the scenes.

Yes it does jump around quite a bit, but I think if certain events were condensed into just one planet, people would rightfully call bullshit at such co-incidences. Also, part of this stems from the reshoots where they added on those introductory scenes with Cassian's contact & Jyn's prison break.

As I've said before, think of it like a WWII espionage movie or even globe trotting films like Bond, Borne & Indiana Jones. All of them have some variation of the place name labels (the map & red line in the case on Indy) and for good reason. When the story needs to travel and the place actually matters to the plot, one needs a simple way to visually communicate to the audience where they are and why. Not every city has an instantly recognisable landmark like Big Ben or the Golden Gate Bridge one can simply throw up in the establishing shot, so labels are usually the way to do that.

I'm aware of the purpose and the tone of the film, and I largely agree with it. However, it made the film too jumpy in terms of narrative, and how these places all relate to one another. Usually we have a character describe at least the location of the planets ("controlled by the Hutts" "Beyond the Outer Rim" etc). And, to be fair to the film, some places worked better than others (Where Galen Erso was working, Vader's castle, and Jehda). But, it doesn't change how jarring the text was in the theater, or how little it meant as far as the galaxy.

So, sorry, I think the film failed in some instances of the "Why" part of the "Where."

The Harrison Ford-less Han Solo movie will be the real test. Although, at this point, Star Wars seems to be rather bullet-proof.

Until people get tired of it.

 

[Tosk]

I dunno, I didn't mind the planet labels. To me it was no different than say, a MIssion: Impossible movie having captions for each country they go to. And it helps set the style apart from the other films. Just like the lack of transition wipes...I don't believe I've seen any complaining about that.

 

[Set Harth]

Or is it possible to watch it in order from TMP to RO before ANH and still get it?

Don't know why you would start with a Star Trek film, but whatever floats your boat...

 

[Ithekro]

Don't know why you would start with a Star Trek film, but whatever floats your boat...

Well one should start with a slower paced film before hitting Star Wars....

 

[Reverend]

I'm aware of the purpose and the tone of the film, and I largely agree with it. However, it made the film too jumpy in terms of narrative, and how these places all relate to one another. Usually we have a character describe at least the location of the planets ("controlled by the Hutts" "Beyond the Outer Rim" etc). And, to be fair to the film, some places worked better than others (Where Galen Erso was working, Vader's castle, and Jehda). But, it doesn't change how jarring the text was in the theater, or how little it meant as far as the galaxy.

So, sorry, I think the film failed in some instances of the "Why" part of the "Where."

I don't disagree about the jumpyness, I just think it's unavoidable to a degree given the type of film they were making and the way in which they were making it. I think it's fair to say they the main culprits are the first few minutes as we go from Lah'mu to Ring of Kafrene to Wobani to Yavin 4 and then on the Jedah in fairly rapid succession. The thing is Kafrene & Wobani were late additions when they realised they needed separate introductions for their two principle characters.

Can you imagine how rushed and perfunctory it would be if they went straight from Lah'mu to Yavin and then off to Jedah? They were right in deciding we needed a little time to get to know Jyn and Cassian separately first before sending them off on their quest.
Was the result a perfect movie? Well no, but movies are typically a series of compromises as things that seem to work on the page may become problematic once up on screen. It's easy to sit back after the fact and pick thing apart but the filmakers have to make these decisions on time and on-budget, so one's ability to course correct is limited. That it turned out so well as it did is I think the hallmark of a movie well made.

For what it's worth I found the jumpyness *much* less bothersome on the second viewing. I suspect this will be a minor niggle that fades with time.

Until people get tired of it.

Well people have been saying audiences will get tired of comic book movies for going on a decade now and they're going stronger than ever with no end in sight. So yeah, I think Star Wars has a few more trilogies in it yet.

 

[Ithekro]

Watched the Star Wars show interview about Rogue One Easter eggs finally. I did miss a few tiny ones. One because I didn't hear it, not remember the game piece names really. The second because I didn't commit the faces of the Death Star's command council to memory. The rest I got I think. Well I also think I missed "karabass" out of the alien Rebel trooper.

I didn't hear it, but I got the reference to Hoojibs in the show since I had a vinyl record of that story when I was little. "Planet of the Hoojibs". Back when we commonly had records and record players.

 

[dahj]

Rogue One was the first real test on if a Star Wars movie can be made that doesn't follow the main story arc (for the most part).

I don't think it was a proper test, and if it was they certainly cheated.
It literally leads into the main story arc and on top of that uses so many visual cues and callbacks that they've mitigated any "risk" of innovation to basically zero.

 

[Tallguy]

I just realized Rogue One kinda screws up the Machete Order. If you're brand new to Star Wars and you watch this movie before ANH you'll probably be completely lost.

I have a co-worker who saw Rogue One and it was his first Star Wars film EVER. He enjoyed it a lot. Blows my mind.

I liked the location cards. It was another thing that made it different. It also made it feel grounded. It may not be THE real world, but it is A real world.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't disagree about the jumpyness, I just think it's unavoidable to a degree given the type of film they were making and the way in which they were making it. I think it's fair to say they the main culprits are the first few minutes as we go from Lah'mu to Ring of Kafrene to Wobani to Yavin 4 and then on the Jedah in fairly rapid succession. The thing is Kafrene & Wobani were late additions when they realised they needed separate introductions for their two principle characters.

Can you imagine how rushed and perfunctory it would be if they went straight from Lah'mu to Yavin and then off to Jedah? They were right in deciding we needed a little time to get to know Jyn and Cassian separately first before sending them off on their quest.
Was the result a perfect movie? Well no, but movies are typically a series of compromises as things that seem to work on the page may become problematic once up on screen. It's easy to sit back after the fact and pick thing apart but the filmakers have to make these decisions on time and on-budget, so one's ability to course correct is limited. That it turned out so well as it did is I think the hallmark of a movie well made.

For what it's worth I found the jumpyness *much* less bothersome on the second viewing. I suspect this will be a minor niggle that fades with time.

I'm not saying that they didn't need the introductions, just that the jumps were frustrating to me, and did not feel seamless. In other words, they distracted from the overall narrative of the film. While it's a minor complaint, it's one that I think could have been done better as it was probably unavoidable in terms of story, but not in execution.
Again, minor, but still an issue. Once the story moved on from the first act I think it smoothed out a lot more and worked a whole lot better.

I don't think it was a proper test, and if it was they certainly cheated.
It literally leads into the main story arc and on top of that uses so many visual cues and callbacks that they've mitigated any "risk" of innovation to basically zero.

I'm mixed on this, because there was a minor risk due to the characters. The only character we saw in the trailers who was familiar was Mon Mothma, hardly a familiar enough face to ease the audience's mind about where the story was going. So to say it was completely risk free I think doesn't quite capture it.

 

[Venardhi]

They showed Darth Vader and plastered his mask all over the place for months.

The jumping around/titles thing really just comes down to unnecessary complications in the first act. Cassian's informant scene could easily have been on the same planet that Jyn is being held with a line or two changed, and we really didn't need the prologue at all.

And as said above, the titles in a spy movie or a war movie actually matter because each setting already has context for the audience. In this case the audience has no context for Wobani or Jedha. They're blank slates. Establish why we should care through dialogue, not shortcuts.

 

[Commander Richard]

What I am wondering, if where they will go after Episode IX...the third Anthology film. Will they continue with known events and character set around the OT period, or will they try for something in the ST or PT eras? Or go radical and go for an Old Republic era film, or a post-Episode IX film that doesn't involve the main storyline characters?

It would be difficult to do a fourth trilogy with the Skywalker saga. Virtually all the iconic characters are dead, two of the original trilogy actors are out and as much as I like seeing Rey, Finn and Kylo, they aren't iconic enough to carry another trilogy are they? Could they create new cultural icons like Obi Wan, Luke Skywalker, Vader, Han Solo, etc. at some point? And if they go for prequels or Old republic films, they couldn't qualify as Episodes 10-12. New standalones wouldn't be a problem but more saga episodes? I don't know.

 

[fireproof78]

They showed Darth Vader and plastered his mask all over the place for months.

The jumping around/titles thing really just comes down to unnecessary complications in the first act. Cassian's informant scene could easily have been on the same planet that Jyn is being held with a line or two changed, and we really didn't need the prologue at all.

And as said above, the titles in a spy movie or a war movie actually matter because each setting already has context for the audience. In this case the audience has no context for Wobani or Jedha. They're blank slates. Establish why we should care through dialogue, not shortcuts.

I guess I miss all the Vader promo stuff, save for at the end of a couple of trailers. I guess I wasn't paying attention that much to the Vader promo. I saw mostly Death troopers, Jyn and the like.

Other than that, I agree with the larger points that a couple of locations could have been combined for pacing. As you said, the lack of context of each location is very frustrating.

 

[Ithekro]

It would be difficult to do a fourth trilogy with the Skywalker saga. Virtually all the iconic characters are dead, two of the original trilogy actors are out and as much as I like seeing Rey, Finn and Kylo, they aren't iconic enough to carry another trilogy are they? Could they create new cultural icons like Obi Wan, Luke Skywalker, Vader, Han Solo, etc. at some point? And if they go for prequels or Old republic films, they couldn't qualify as Episodes 10-12. New standalones wouldn't be a problem but more saga episodes? I don't know.

That depends on what they do with Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo in the next two films. If the Episode films are to be about the Skywalkers, there needs to be a surviving Skywalker at the end of Episode IX for there to be an Episode X. That likely cannot be Leia for real life reasons. That probably can't be Kylo unless they somehow can redeem him and he has to shoulder his burden of the Dark Side through the next trilogy. It is unlikely to be Luke, though that depends on how much later the fourth trilogy is after the third trilogy. That leaves use with a question that we've had since it was only known as Episode VII....is Rey a Skywalker?

The answer to that question will determine how they can go forward with Episode X at all. Aside from Episode films, they can do whatever they want. But the Episode films are specifically Skywalker stories.

Plus I can get behind Daisy Ridley holding her own going forward.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not saying that they didn't need the introductions, just that the jumps were frustrating to me, and did not feel seamless. In other words, they distracted from the overall narrative of the film. While it's a minor complaint, it's one that I think could have been done better as it was probably unavoidable in terms of story, but not in execution.
Again, minor, but still an issue. Once the story moved on from the first act I think it smoothed out a lot more and worked a whole lot better.

It's one of those things that had they known about it ahead of time, the movie would be structured to better accommodate it, but since the issue didn't become apparent until after principle photography they had a choice of 1) doing nothing 2) film these inserted intro scenes or 3) re-write and re-shoot almost the entire movie. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it's the best *practical* solution.

I actually just linked this video of Filloni in regards to a different topic, but he says something that's also rather pertinent to this discussion here and here. The gist of it is that movie are art, but they're done on a budget and a time limit. Most of the time the filmmakers are well aware of the flaws when it's the sort of thing that will only be apparent after it's done. It's easy to see it in hindsight, not so easy ahead of time and your options for fixing it are limited. Sometimes one has to compromise.

Personally I'm less concerned with the niggling details as I am with how the film works as a whole. In this case I think it works much better than it really has any right to and that's usually the hallmark of a great movie.