Star Wars Rebels Season Three (spoilers)

[tharpdevenport]

I think you misunderstood the purpose of this episode. (see below)

There's a purpose of an episode to the viewer from the writer and then there's the reality of what was supposed to be happening in-verse, otherwise Sabine could have gotten her inner demons out in some other way.

Of course he was holding back, otherwise he'd have cut her in half in two seconds flat.

The purpose is to train her, not let her feels good about herself by one-upping him in a fight. I'm sorry, but I don't know of any training (with my limited scope on it), where this happens. Especailly considering this isn't just taking a karate class, she has to weird a powerful weapon to help lead her people under Empire rule. It doesn't make sense Kanan would just let het have one, no matter how emotional she was getting, especially since it didn't look like he was doing it on purpose.

As he said, she wasn't fighting him, she was fighting herself. All of this was about her facing her own demons. Learning how to wield a lightsaber was secondary.

Somewhere along the line, however, Kanan moved away from that, 'cause no matter how simpathetic Hera's words are, you don't move from a wooden stick to a deadly darksaber. Kanan didn't fly her and Ezra there to fight her inner demons, that was just a bonus like a ring in a Cracker Jack box.

 

[Reverend]

Somewhere along the line, however, Kanan moved away from that, 'cause no matter how simpathetic Hera's words are, you don't move from a wooden stick to a deadly darksaber. Kanan didn't fly her and Ezra there to fight her inner demons, that was just a bonus like a ring in a Cracker Jack box.

The one follows the other. She needed to get past this block to be able to open herself up. Only then can she start to really learn. Her training isn't done, this is just the beginning.

As for using a real saber vs. the practice sabre; it's a matter of confidence and commitment. As Hera said, keeping her on the proverbial training wheels only encourages her not to commit to this whole endeavour. Subconsciously she's going to interpret it as the others not having faith in her, which is really a projection of her own self doubt, insecurity and guilt. Again, as Kanan said, she was fighting herself, not him. He needed to help her find balance. Without that, no amount of practice sessions and form drills will prepare her for what comes next. Stick or no stick.

 

[Stephen!]

Maybe the wooden lightsabers were intended as a nod to the original props, although those were said to keep breaking while filming.

 

[Ithekro]

The interesting thing is that Sabine still didn't want it, really. When handed to her, SAbine suggested they train more with the sticks, but Kanan basically told her to take it, because it is hers. Her responsibility. Her mission. The sticks wouldn't potentially kill them (I mean they could, but only on purpose), while the lightsabers cut regardless of how they hit. Kanan isn't giving her the prize. He's handing her her burden. She's to use this weapon to unite her people to fight the Empire who can come again and glass the planet's surface, even before the Death Star was finished. Mandalore can't run and hide like the Rebels can. Concord Dawn is a planet that is missing a third of the planet due to some war. Mandalore seems to have been glassed at some point in the distant past as the cities are all glass enclosures. Sabine's burden is to do this and know it could bring about the deaths of everyone of her people. The death of her family. People that have turned their backs on her for trying to liberate them from the Empire which rules them through fear. Fear of weapons she herself designed (whatever they are). She's being handed the burden of command for a people who might not even accept her, but she has to do it anyway, for the cause.

Sabine opening up and admitting to all the things that happened, was were she regained her balance, and thus accepted her burden. She was able to knock Kanan down, and possibly could have killed him, though I think if she had attempted a down swing he's have Force pushed her away. His hand was already in position to do that.

And people will challenge Sabine. She's already skilled in the use of a blade, so that wasn't the issue. The issue has to do with her centering herself to be able to effectively use a lightsaber. And while she is training against a Jedi, what she'll be facing are Mandalorians. Her failing managed to get one of her new toys sliced up a bit when she landed on the blade. had it not been there, it would have been her hand cut off.

 

[Christopher]

Mandalore seems to have been glassed at some point in the distant past as the cities are all glass enclosures.

Not sure what you're saying there. When I see SF stories in which people talk about "glassing" a planet, I take it to mean bombarding the planet from orbit so heavily that its crust melts and hardens into glass. Looking into it, it's apparently a term from the HALO video game franchise: https://www.halopedia.org/Glassing Although I think the place I came across it most recently was a Star Trek novel, probably the Legacies trilogy.

Unless you're suggesting that the planet was rendered lifeless, then resettled with artificial domes. Wookieepedia does say that centuries of war turned Mandalore into a desert, requiring the New Mandaloreans to build enclosed cities, but that kind of devastation is an order of magnitude below "glassing."

 

[Ithekro]

I was assuming it had been glassed several millennia ago, and resettled much later after the winds reshaped the planet by eroding the surface and covering it in fine dust. The Star Wars universe does span something like 35,000 years, of which we only get to see glimpses of things from more than a millennia ago, but the scale of some of the destruction and life that has sprung up following said destruction seem to speak of conflicts far, far older than a simple millennia or two passing.
Scales of destruction before there was a Death Star.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, it sounds like it was smaller-scale surface warfare over centuries that destroyed Mandalore's environment, rather than a single orbital bombardment.

 

[Reverend]

From the official databank: -

Once a glorious world, the surface of Mandalore was laid waste by war, leading Duchess Satine Kryze to renounce the planet’s violent history and declare neutrality in the Clone Wars.

A bit non-specific since one gets the impression that historically Mandalorians have spend about as much time and energy fighting each other as they have Jedi and whatever other cultures they've made war upon. So one might presume the wasteland that is the surface is the end result of centuries or millennia of near constant fighting.
However, Dave Filloni had this to say. So the idea is indeed that the final battle with the Jedi is what made the surface the devastated husk that we see.

We still don't know when that happened exactly, but I get the sense it was at most a few centuries ago, which tracks with the idea that it was during the fall of the Old Republic that House Vizla united all the clans. We do know that there was still internal fighting as recently as Qui-Gon & Kenobi's protection of Satine, but that may just have been the last gasp of the old warrior factions before they lost all power and became outcasts.

 

[Ithekro]

And some of it seem to be coming to pass. Sabine's family seems to have yellow armor. So there is likely a clan or house that uses green armor...and whoever they are is were Boba's getting his stuff I guess.

 

[Reverend]

And some of it seem to be coming to pass. Sabine's family seems to have yellow armor. So there is likely a clan or house that uses green armor...and whoever they are is were Boba's getting his stuff I guess.

Actually they mostly seem to be white armor with yellow marking over a black/dark grey jumpsuit. Nice nod to the original concept. Mama Wren appears to be the clan leader so she have much more prominent markings including a almost entirely yellow helmet. So yeah, it looks like the colours are a clan specific thing.
It seems somewhat flexible and at least partly dependent of allegiance given that all of the soldiers in Deathwatch were uniformly displaying a blue/grey/silver pallet under House Vizla and one assumes most of those were from various different clans. Indeed we know for a fact Bo-Katan was at least born into of Clan Kryze, yet she wore Vizla's colours. Also notable is that Vizla's soldiers that sided with Maul switched to Dathomiri inspired decoration.

But yeah, Boba's armor seemed to have mostly the same green colour scheme so there's probably a clan out there with those markings. Indeed, there's a good chance that the symbol of that clan is that is the one on the chestplate as IIRC TCW established that the right shoulder is the unit symbol while the left is a rank insignia (I may have that backwards.)
That the symbol is so prominent (I don't think any other Mandalorians had chest symbols except Vizla in later appearances) and the green colour is so dominant may indicate this was the armor of a clan leader. Which would make sense if Fett really took it as a trophy.

Sounds like an opportunity to reinterpret the Jaster Mereel and/or Jodo Kast stories to me.

 

[Tallguy]

What do you MEAN we don't have any new episodes until February 21st!?!?

 

[tharpdevenport]

The one follows the other. She needed to get past this block to be able to open herself up. Only then can she start to really learn. Her training isn't done, this is just the beginning.

Yes, but that wasn't what Kanan flew her out to do, further more it's implied Kanan didn't even realize Sabine's personal butthurt until Hera pointed it out to him.

[/quote]As for using a real saber vs. the practice sabre; it's a matter of confidence and commitment.[/quote]

It is a mystical universe and there is the Force, but I can tell you in real life, you don't let somebody play with a gun just because that person feels confident.

As Hera said, keeping her on the proverbial training wheels only encourages her not to commit to this whole endeavour.

But Sabine was doing it nonetheless. By her own words, she never quits. She gets in a tizzy and suddenly she gets to train with the darksaber? No, I'm not going for that.

Again, as Kanan said, she was fighting herself, not him. He needed to help her find balance.

No disagreement there, but it was after-the-fact.

 

[Tallguy]

I am reminded on some of the old making of Star Wars type specials when they interview Georg Lucas and Mark Hamill on the subject of lightsabers. When doing stuff with a lightsaber, the instruction from Lucas was that the lightsaber was to seem heavy in the likes of Excalibur, and that you needed to hold it with two hands.

I though of that too. Lucas and Marquand made a little bit of a stink when Jedi came out that you can't use a saber one handed. (This was a criticism of Empire.) Even though the first time we ever see a lightsaber Luke uses it one handed. (They didn't imply it was bad technique, they were more like it physically couldn't be done.)

Wonder what George thought of Vader's technique in Rogue One.

I did like the description of it in Rebels though.

Don't tease me with Bendu! MORE BENDU!

 

[Reverend]

Yes, but that wasn't what Kanan flew her out to do, further more it's implied Kanan didn't even realize Sabine's personal butthurt until Hera pointed it out to him.

Maybe because he's never had to train her before? Plus he's always been a little slow on the uptake when it comes to other people's emotional states. Remember, last season Sabine had to kick him up the arse to get him to realise what his leaving for Mandalore was doing to Hera.

It is a mystical universe and there is the Force, but I can tell you in real life, you don't let somebody play with a gun just because that person feels confident.

False analogy. Swords and guns are entirely different things. Plus, Sabine is no amateur with weapons and this happens after several days of practice.

Again you're failing to grasp that her skills aren't the primary issue. It's her mental and emotional state. You can't tech someone who's closed off and they can't learn if they're too busy fighting themselves.

But Sabine was doing it nonetheless. By her own words, she never quits. She gets in a tizzy and suddenly she gets to train with the darksaber? No, I'm not going for that.

I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text.
He doesn't let her use it because she stormed off, he does so because that's what she needs to move past this block. The outburst is a symptom not a cause.

No disagreement there, but it was after-the-fact.

Not sure how this is a negative. The episode makes it very clear that this is as much a learning experience for Kanan as it is for Sabine, just as it was when he began teaching Ezra.

Wonder what George thought of Vader's technique in Rogue One.

To be fair it's implied as early as his second scene that Vader's arms aere mechanical, so he was always meant to be abnormally strong. Indeed the first time we see him with his sabre ignited he's holding it one-handed.

Personally I like the idea that a lightsaber has some heft and even the blade itself almost resists being moved, so this notion that it becomes easier to wield the more one connects with it adds even more of a spiritual dimension as well as being entirely consistent with both the OT & PT styles of sabre combat.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Maybe because he's never had to train her before? Plus he's always been a little slow on the uptake when it comes to other people's emotional states. Remember, last season Sabine had to kick him up the arse to get him to realise what his leaving for Mandalore was doing to Hera.

Correct, but this just brings us back full circle: the point was to train Sabine. Anything that happened as a result of that was a bonus.

False analogy. Swords and guns are entirely different things.

Both will kill you just as dead, both need proper training. You can play with water guns all your childhood, but that doesn't mean you are ready to handle a gun.

You can argue that lightsabers, and the darksaber, can respond to the Force and the user in a way, and that is a difference, but in the end both are defensive tools.

Plus, Sabine is no amateur with weapons and this happens after several days of practice.

Well, let me toss it to you: false analogy. There was all kinds of different weapons, from ninja stars, swords, bo staffs, big and small or all kidns of designs, and knowing how to use one thing doesn't necessarily mean you can just pick up something that looks similar and use it Especially something that glows with energy that in one accidental move in training, can cost you a limb, the trainer a limb, you your life, or thr trainer's life. And we aren't talking anymore about picking something up for the hell of it, Sabine is training to lead her people from the Empire in eventual rebellion.

Again you're failing to grasp that her skills aren't the primary issue.

No, I'm not failing to grasp it. The whole point of Kanan flying her and Ezra out was to train to use the darksaber. Her issue was, again, a side benefit, and again one that Kanan didn't realize until into the training.

It's her mental and emotional state. You can't tech someone who's closed off and they can't learn if they're too busy fighting themselves.

Again, to quote Sabine, she doesn't quit. So she can obviously get over it. The stakes are bigger her than her need to vent and come to grips with her past. It feels like we're going in circles.

I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text.

She said it, not me. And people can overcome themselves. Sabine needs a kick in the ass from life to learn a lesson. She's being a first-half season one Ezra emo. Time to grow up, life isn't going to wait, it marches on.

He doesn't let her use it because she stormed off, he does so because that's what she needs to move past this block. The outburst is a symptom not a cause.

That's exactly what he let her, because of the emotional outburts. Hera was the one who let him in on Sabine's real issue and sudenly Kanan felt Sabine needed the equivilent of lightsaber therapy. There was no inbetween, she left the camp and didn't come back until it was dark.

Not sure how this is a negative. The episode makes it very clear that this is as much a learning experience for Kanan as it is for Sabine, just as it was when he began teaching Ezra.




And off that, I to like that the lightsaber isn't just a heavy thing that is difficult ti weird and that the Force can be channeled to use it and make it seem more like and extension of your body.

 

[Ithekro]

Kanan was teaching her how to use a lightsaber via sticks because he thought it was too dangerous to give her the real thing while she was unbalanced. Hera points out to him that she will continue to resist committing to training if he doesn't force her to take up the Darksaber, which she's not accepted yet as her burden. Knowing this, Kanan decides to teach her in another way. She doesn't need skills training after several days with Ezra, since she clearly gets idea of how to use a sword and can managed to do Mando tricks in combat at the same time. What he thinks she needs is discipline. But what she really needs is accepting her burden and past in order to move forward and balance herself. Hera's point gets through and Kanan used a different style to teach her...Dun Möch , to get her break her usual composure and unleash her demons, which balances her.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It's not like armor would stop a lightsaber anyway ...

Apparently, (at least, according to starwars.com) there are varying qualities of beskar’gam (iron skin), the highest of which is made of lightsaber-resistant beskar material. It would make sense if the Mandalorians were, at one time, focusing a war-footing on Jedi, that someone would make a major point of developing armor that could turn that kind of energy blade. The Wookieepedia has scant information on the nature of the armor itself - only a few notable individuals who wore variations of it.

Oh, yes, and this was definitely one of the best episodes to-date. I really love this show - the franchise as a whole has come a long way.

 

[Christopher]

You know, they say almost nothing can stop a lightsaber blade, but it seemed to me while watching Empire and Jedi that guard rails (where they exist) are remarkably good at blocking them. There were scenes where Luke and Vader were fighting on catwalks and stuff, and the sabers just bounced off the guard rails instead of cutting through them -- even though Vader's saber had no trouble slicing through the big vertical tube thingy right next to the narrow guard rails. So I guess that, when they do bother to install guard rails in the SW universe, they really go all-out with them.

 

[Stephen!]

There's metals in the Star Wars universe that are resistant to lightsabers.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik

 

[Christopher]

There's metals in the Star Wars universe that are resistant to lightsabers.

Yeah, but would they make ordinary safety railings out of them? It just struck me as a moment that gave away the filmmaking artifice -- like in so many movies and TV shows where phaser beams or blaster bolts or other energy rays that can vaporize a living being have no effect at all when they hit walls and floors and rocks and such, because the makers didn't have the budget to rig special effects to show impacts that weren't plot-relevant.