Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion
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That doesn't necessarily mean he is a mass murderer. Mass murder is not the same as multiple murder. And yes, I'm ignoring the "monster" part of the equation.
The Winter Soldier isn't really Bucky though. When he was brainwashed, he didn't even know his name anymore. Bucky was innocent and deserved to be protected.
While I wouldn't call Deadpool a "bad" movie, I am somewhat disappointed and confused as to why so many people like it so much. I understand & appreciate what it's trying to do. It's trying to be a cynical, wisecracking piss-take on superhero movies. But I found its humor to be incredibly predictable & juvenile.
Due to a tiny flat and a lack of free walls I'm cursed to watch it on a regular TV.
It's still awesome though, I don't think Snyder gets nearly enough credit for just how good the movie looks.
I would agree that Snyder has a great flair for visual style. But I don't much care for the plots of a lot of his movies. I found Frank Miller's macho posturing quite tedious in 300 (which was still an improvement upon the absolutely loathsome Sin City). Snyder's elaborate visual style fetishizes the violence in Watchmen, which misses the point of the story.
Meanwhile, it does seem that he eventually did take Watchmen's ethos to heart, since he spends most of Man of Steel and Batman v Superman giving side-eye to the whole underlying notion of Superman and the inherent goodness of his humanity. I'm OK with exploring the notion of Superman in a modern, cynical world and seeing how his unchecked power breeds suspicion among people. But it's the fact that Clark himself seems to have sincere doubts about his own motives that worries me.
Granted, I'm not sure how much we should be blaming Snyder vs. how much we should be blaming David Goyer for that. After all, Goyer also co-wrote the Dark Knight movies, which have their own skewed moral compass. Like the whole, "We're going to frame Batman for the murders that Harvey Dent committed because only by presenting Harvey Dent as an unblemished martyr will we be able to gain public support for anti-organized crime legislation" thing.
The mistake that seems to keep cropping up in Goyer's scripts is the notion that people have to be perfectly good in order to be good people. I disagree with that notion. People can be flawed yet still be good. And good people can still make mistakes and do wrong things because good judgment only takes you so far in a complex world of imperfect knowledge.
But in Goyer's scripts, it often feels like the "heroes" only do good things by accident or only after talking themselves into it.
I think you do a good job of explaining Zemo's plan. Lex Luthor's plan is admittedly messier but I think makes more sense once you begin with the understanding that Lex is insane. Like, genuinely insane but with enough intelligence remaining to make him extremely dangerous. I think he's probably the most genuinely insane supervillain we've ever seen on the big screen. Way crazier than the Joker. (The Joker is a colorful sociopath who's brain works in a totally different way from most people but he still seems grounded in some level of reality. Lex seemed suicidally unhinged by the end.)
If we're talking about checkered Marvel heroes, I think Scarlet Witch belongs at the top. Yes, Ultron misled her about his intentions. But she was still an accomplice to his theft of the vibranium, which led directly to the hundreds, if not thousands, of deaths in Sokovia.
I figured that, while creating Doomsday was stupid & suicidally dangerous, it fits with his megalomania because he CREATED the world destroying monster. He had the power to choose whether to create it or not, which boils down to the ultimate power of life & death. To see this more clearly illustrated as a thought experiment, SEE this conversation between the Doctor & Davros from Doctor Who "Genesis of the Daleks":
But when does he express doubt and what about?
It's not "oh, I can't be bothered with this hero business".
It's after people die because someone wants to hurt him, which is a very valid reason to pause and think. He wonders if he's right in doing this if it brings harm to innocent people. He also overcomes his doubt.
Personally, I think that makes him more heroic, not less.
Superman doesn't say much at all in the whole long movie, only 452 words at all. As comparison Schwarzenegger says 700 words in Terminator 2, which has a running time of 137 minutes, while BvS has a running time of 151 minutes.
http://screencrush.com/batman-vs-superman-dialogue/
“Hey, I was going to cook… Surprise you.”
“I don’t care… I don’t care what they’re saying. The woman I loved could have been blown up or shot. Think of what could have happened.”
“I didn’t kill those men if that’s what they think… If that’s what they’re saying. Don’t know if what’s possible?”
“It’s like a one man reign of terror. This bat vigilante has been consistently targeting the port and the adjacent projects and tenements and as far I can tell, the cops are actually helping him.”
“Why aren’t we covering this? Poor people don’t buy papers?”
“Perry, when you assign a story, you’re making a choice about who matters. And who’s worth it.”
“Who is that?”
“Mr. Wayne… Mr Wayne! Clark Kent, Daily Planet.”
“I’m sorry?”
“What’s your position on the Bat vigilante in Gotham?”
“Civil liberties are being trampled on in your city. Good people living in fear.”
“I’ve seen it, Mr. Wayne. He thinks he’s above the law.”
“Most of the world doesn’t share your opinion, Mr. Wayne.”
“The police won’t help, the press has to do the right thing.”
“When the planet was founded, it stood for something, Perry.”
“She was my world… And you took her from me…”
“Next time they shine your light in the sky, don’t go to it. The bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy.”
“I didn’t see it, Lo. I was standing right there and I didn’t see it.”
“I’m afraid I didn’t see it because I wasn’t looking… All this time, I’ve been living my life the way my father saw it.”
“Righting wrongs for a ghost. Thinking I’m here to do good. Superman was never real, just a dream of a farmer from Kansas.”
“It did on my world. My world doesn’t exist anymore.”
“Did the nightmares ever stop?”
“I miss you, too, dad…”
“I’ll take you in without breaking you… Which is more than you deserve!”
“What have you done?”
“You think I’ll fight him for you?”
“She’s safe on the ground. How about you?”
“Where is she?!”
“Lois, I have to go to Gotham to convince him to help me. Or he has to die…”
“No one stays good in this world.”
“Bruce… Please… I was wrong. You have to listen to me… Lex wants to…”
“You don’t understand! There’s no time!”
“Stay down! If I wanted it, you’d be dead already!”
“You’re letting him kill Martha!”
“Find him! Save Martha!”
“Luthor, he wanted your life for her’s. She’s losing time.”
“My mother needs me.”
“You lost.”
“Did you find the spear?”
“This thing is from another world.... My world.”
“She with you?”
“I love you…”
“This is my world… YOU are my world.”
“AHHHHHHHHHHGHHH!!”
The talked he had with Lois after the attack on the court made up overall 72 words, that is 16% of all the words he says in the movie. And his self blame, self doubt and disillusionment might be understandable right after that, but when a character says so few things in a movie and the other things he says hardly have any optimism and happiness in them at all, it leaves an impact. And later in the movie this happens again with his “No one stays good in this world.” sentence. It is all just so depressive and bleak. And like I wrote in a previous comment already, it doesn't help at all, that Snyder uses a lens filter, which sucks all the colours and light out of the movie. I suspect even the Teletubbies would become bleak and depressive with such a filter.
It is really a shame, that they chose out of all superheroes out there, Superman as a protagonist for such a long, boring, depressive slogfest. He is my favourite superhero, so I am particular disappointed about Snyder's take on him. Did no one look at his brightly primary coloured costume and thought, that maybe, just maybe, he would work better in a more fun, humorous, optimistic movie? It doesn't have to be all laughter and rainbows, there can be some bleakness and darkness, but it should be balanced out by some light stuff, if Superman is in a movie. Even the Nolan Batman movies, which I like by the way, did that balance way better and that were movies solely about Batman, mainly playing in Gotham, which was appropriately shown to be not a particular nice place. The movies still had more humour and fun in them than BvS despite all of this. They were entertaining, which I really can't say about BvS.
http://screencrush.com/batman-vs-superman-dialogue/
“Hey, I was going to cook… Surprise you.”
“I don’t care… I don’t care what they’re saying. The woman I loved could have been blown up or shot. Think of what could have happened.”
“I didn’t kill those men if that’s what they think… If that’s what they’re saying. Don’t know if what’s possible?”
“It’s like a one man reign of terror. This bat vigilante has been consistently targeting the port and the adjacent projects and tenements and as far I can tell, the cops are actually helping him.”
“Why aren’t we covering this? Poor people don’t buy papers?”
“Perry, when you assign a story, you’re making a choice about who matters. And who’s worth it.”
“Who is that?”
“Mr. Wayne… Mr Wayne! Clark Kent, Daily Planet.”
“I’m sorry?”
“What’s your position on the Bat vigilante in Gotham?”
“Civil liberties are being trampled on in your city. Good people living in fear.”
“I’ve seen it, Mr. Wayne. He thinks he’s above the law.”
“Most of the world doesn’t share your opinion, Mr. Wayne.”
“The police won’t help, the press has to do the right thing.”
“When the planet was founded, it stood for something, Perry.”
“She was my world… And you took her from me…”
“Next time they shine your light in the sky, don’t go to it. The bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy.”
“I didn’t see it, Lo. I was standing right there and I didn’t see it.”
“I’m afraid I didn’t see it because I wasn’t looking… All this time, I’ve been living my life the way my father saw it.”
“Righting wrongs for a ghost. Thinking I’m here to do good. Superman was never real, just a dream of a farmer from Kansas.”
“It did on my world. My world doesn’t exist anymore.”
“Did the nightmares ever stop?”
“I miss you, too, dad…”
“I’ll take you in without breaking you… Which is more than you deserve!”
“What have you done?”
“You think I’ll fight him for you?”
“She’s safe on the ground. How about you?”
“Where is she?!”
“Lois, I have to go to Gotham to convince him to help me. Or he has to die…”
“No one stays good in this world.”
“Bruce… Please… I was wrong. You have to listen to me… Lex wants to…”
“You don’t understand! There’s no time!”
“Stay down! If I wanted it, you’d be dead already!”
“You’re letting him kill Martha!”
“Find him! Save Martha!”
“Luthor, he wanted your life for her’s. She’s losing time.”
“My mother needs me.”
“You lost.”
“Did you find the spear?”
“This thing is from another world.... My world.”
“She with you?”
“I love you…”
“This is my world… YOU are my world.”
“AHHHHHHHHHHGHHH!!”
The talked he had with Lois after the attack on the court made up overall 72 words, that is 16% of all the words he says in the movie. And his self blame, self doubt and disillusionment might be understandable right after that, but when a character says so few things in a movie and the other things he says hardly have any optimism and happiness in them at all, it leaves an impact. And later in the movie this happens again with his “No one stays good in this world.” sentence. It is all just so depressive and bleak. And like I wrote in a previous comment already, it doesn't help at all, that Snyder uses a lens filter, which sucks all the colours and light out of the movie. I suspect even the Teletubbies would become bleak and depressive with such a filter.
It is really a shame, that they chose out of all superheroes out there, Superman as a protagonist for such a long, boring, depressive slogfest. He is my favourite superhero, so I am particular disappointed about Snyder's take on him. Did no one look at his brightly primary coloured costume and thought, that maybe, just maybe, he would work better in a more fun, humorous, optimistic movie? It doesn't have to be all laughter and rainbows, there can be some bleakness and darkness, but it should be balanced out by some light stuff, if Superman is in a movie. Even the Nolan Batman movies, which I like by the way, did that balance way better and that were movies solely about Batman, mainly playing in Gotham, which was appropriately shown to be not a particular nice place. The movies still had more humour and fun in them than BvS despite all of this. They were entertaining, which I really can't say about BvS.
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I don't really care about the maths of it, counting lines seems awfully nitpicky to me, but he says more in the ultimate cut, so maybe that would improve your view? Dunno.
Regardless, I think his actions speak a lot more as to what kind of hero he is.
He not only continues to fight and protect the people even when the public is against him, but he also acts heroically in his role as a reporter where he stands up to fight for people who nobody cares about.
Again, I find the movie plenty optimistic, I think the overall "tone" of it works perfectly for the themes and ideas it explores. And I don't find it devoid of humour either, basically everything that comes out of Alfred's or Perry's mouth is funny.
I think a lot more people would enjoy this movie if they'd just dropped their prejudice of what a Superman movie "should be like", and watched it for what it is...
No surprise there. BvS was a Batman movie, featuring Superman.
Also, filters have been used in Superman movies since 2006. Check out this scene from SR. This isn't just the bad quality of a youtube video. This is what Bryan Singer also felt was appropriate to have in the world of Superman.
I don't think I can agree with that, I can see how the theatrical cut might feel that way though, but on the other hand the ultimate cut is much more so a Superman film with Batman in it.
All things considered, I'd really call halfsies on it, I think both were prominently featured.
Superman Returns is filter wise still a bit better than the newest two movies in my opinion. Not good though, too. I really don't understand the film makers aversion to natural looking light.
And do you mean with the video, that you share the opinion of the video maker, about how Superman is a crap dad, who abandons his son? Personally I didn't see it that way. He was gone for 5 years, Lois Lane has moved on. Richard White is her fiancé and a great father to Jason. What should Superman have done instead? Go all caveman and storm into the house, declare Lois as his woman and Jason as his son and throw Richard out of the building? Now that I would have disagreed with! I wouldn't have wanted Superman to be shown has someone, who tries to destroy a happy family. In addition to that, it would put Jason in danger, if anyone suspects, that he is Superman's son. It already happened before in the film! I saw it as a noble sacrifice, that he didn't try to interfere in their family, even if that means, that he can't be very close to his son. Clark's decision was in my opinion the best for Jason, Lois and Richard. And if they will ever need his help, he also promised to be there at the end. But I think it is right, that he doesn't impose on them against their will.
By the way all in all I think Superman Returns is a much more enjoyable movie than the last two Superman movies. I take Singer over Snyder every day! Singer made some great X-Men movies and House, too. Snyder on the other hand seemingly can't do anything, which isn't bleak and dark. I have seen three other non Superman movies from him and I didn't like them either.
The point of my post was to draw attention to this recent complaint of filters for Snyder's 2 movies, when there were no complaints about the muted filter in Singer's movie. Just seems like a nitpick. As if adding more color would increase a person's enjoyment of a film. What matters if whether or not the directors, writers and producers told a story that you wanted to see.
Check this video out.
I didn't title the video. Just the first one I found that had the completed scene for the end of the movie. As to what Superman should've done. Not leave abruptly to go see a planet he knows is destroyed, and give no explanation to his love interest. Superman should not have followed Lois home to spy on her, her family and listen to her conversation. The central conflict of Superman and Lois' "will they won't they" romance can be solved with Supes putting a ring on it. Too much nostalgia is what ruined SR. Why couldn't Superman and Lois be together in the original Reeve/Donner and in Singer's movie? We're never given a reason. They just have to be apart.
Well, it's good that you enjoy SR. I don't but that's ok.
I have seen some colour corrected videos and pics before and this way at least the movies would look better. Colours also add a bit of joy. The absence of them just increases the bleakness of Snyder's movies, which were already depressive enough without the filter. I am not saying, that I would have liked BvS, if he didn't use the filter. There were so many other things wrong with the film. But at least it would have a bit more of an optical appeal and it would have been a little less bleak. It would have increased my enjoyment at least a little.
Directors use color filters to add a certain mood to the movies. The somber feeling you get when seeing it is probably exactly what Snyder was going for.
You are free to not like it but colour timing is among the most deliberate choices a director makes--with the express purpose of setting a particular mood. Directors will be far more open to re-editing a cut than change the colour timing.
Which could be part of the problem - at least for me. While I am certainly a fan, I even prefer DC to Marvel, the films are a stark contrast. Though Captain America Civil War seemed kinda dark filter wise to me as well.
I am completely aware, that it was done on purpose to make the movie even more bleak and depressive. I just don't like it.
It would make sense if that was the filmmakers' intent, since it neatly ties into Goyer's theme of escalation, which goes right back to Batman Begins in 2005. But that's not quite how the movie frames it.
“I’m afraid I didn’t see it because I wasn’t looking…"
So, if he failed to save people, that would be a reason to try harder next time, not to contemplate quitting altogether. And while Superman should be cognizant of the unintended consequences of his actions, it doesn't morally taint what he's doing.
But then, the universe of this movie seems all whacked out, since one of the news reports indicates that defacing the Superman statue qualifies as a "hate crime."
Interesting. How does Superman's word count compare to Batman's? What about Lois Lane or Lex Luthor?
OK, now I want to see that!
I'd definitely take Superman Returns over Man of Steel. Meanwhile, while I don't like Snyder's take on Superman, I like the Batman & Wonder Woman stuff enough to rank Batman v Superman slightly higher than Superman Returns.
(Meanwhile, while Singer did some great work on X-Men, I still say Matthew Vaughn's X-Men: First Class is the best film of the series.)
It kinda made sense at the end of the 1st Reeve movie, since it's early days and they don't have to progress the characters that far. But, yeah, the Superman/Lois stuff creates all kinds of fundamental structural problems in Superman II.
I'm OK with the colors in Man of Steel & Batman v Superman. Although I was still shocked when I watched the behind the scenes videos which show definite if muted red & blue colors in Wonder Woman's costume. In the movie and in the production photos, her costume looks totally brown to me, giving her more of a Xena feel. Thankfully, the colors seem a lot more prominent in the Wonder Woman trailer.
Unfortunately, Superman Returns seems to have been treated with a dingy sepia-toned filter, which doesn't do it any favors at all. (I suspect that this had more to do with Jon Peters than with Bryan Singer, since Peters was notoriously opposed to the red & blue costume. Kevin Smith has a lot to say about that from when he was working on the aborted Tim Burton Superman reboot in the 1990s.)
I don't have a problem with that. IMO, Donner did the best big screen interpretation of the Superman character & the Superman universe that we've ever seen. What's disappointing is how weak his Superman plots are. Superman Returns followed in those footsteps, although it would have been a marked improvement if only there was something big for Superman to do at the end besides throw a giant rock of Kryptonite into space.
On the other hand, Snyder's movies have much more engaging plots and more interesting adversaries than anything Donner or Singer ever gave us. But Snyder's movies lack the spirit of Superman.
I would be more accepting of variation & experimentation with the Superman formula if only I felt that any previous filmmaker had gotten it totally right. Donner, Singer, & Snyder have all failed to totally satisfy me with any of their Superman movies, whereas Tim Burton & Christopher Nolan have both delivered equally definitive takes on Batman and Sam Raimi gave me 95% of what I wanted to see in a Spider-Man movie.
If only we could do a fusion of the 2 takes. Like, what if you kept Superman Returns largely the same but replaced Lex Luthor's Kryptonite continent scheme with a straight-up Lex Luthor plots revenge against Superman by creating Doomsday (a la the end of Batman v Superman)?